What's the advantage of leather grip on Yonex 95D?

[Litespeeds]

I recently bought some Yonex V-Core 95D racquets and the seller changed one to a leather grip. This changes the balance of the racquet as well as increased the overall weight. The racquet with the leather grip is much more head light.

For a Yonex 95D which is already head light, what is the advantages or disadvantages between the stock grip and leather grip for this racquet? I need to figure out if I want to get a leather grip for the other racquet or remove the leather grip and go back with the stock grip.

 

[Top Jimmy]

How does it feel? Do you like it? That's all you need to know.

Why do people want to quantify a personal preference? You've already realized the weight difference, what more is there to know?

 

[Torres]

The leather grip is normally harder than a synthetic grip. Some people like that, some people don't.

Compared to a synthetic grip, you'll probably get more feedback/harshness (depending on your point of view) when striking the ball. Again, some people like that, some people don't.

Leather will obviously increase the static weight and the swing weight and change the balance point as its heavier.

At the end of the day, you just have to play with it and see whether its something that you prefer.

 

[ChicagoJack]

^^^ All true, but a leather grip does not change the measurable swingweight. A leather grip does add mass to the tail end which will also increase the recoilweight. So... Recoilweight is fancy talk for it wont add much in the way of power, or oomph, or ball velocity, but tail weighting does help the the racquet to resist the forces that will want to push, recoil, and rotate the racquet around the balance point in the throat, when the ball hits the strings. In other words, and said as simply as possible, tail weighting makes the frame more stable, and more shock resistant.

-Jack

 

[RackofSlamb]

How does it feel? Do you like it? That's all you need to know.

Why do people want to quantify a personal preference? You've already realized the weight difference, what more is there to know?

Why do you reply if you're not going to really say what the guy wants to hear? Just humor he or she a bit and help em out

 

[Cfidave]

I have a Donnay Pro One with a leather grip, which completely changes the playing characteristics of the racquet . For me, it is much better in that the racquet falls into my personal comfort range for weight & balance. I also prefer a firmer more defined grip.

As far as specifics, the leather grip added 13 grams of weight and shifted the balance another 3 pts towards headlite. The racquet although heavier is more maneuverable, but still has plenty of mass for solid hitting. In the end it is a matter of what works best and what you are comfortable with.

 

[ChicagoJack]

How does it feel? Do you like it? That's all you need to know.

Why do people want to quantify a personal preference? You've already realized the weight difference, what more is there to know?

All knowledge falls into 3 categories.

1. The stuff you know that you know.

2. The stuff that you know you don't know.

3. The other 99% of things to be learned falls into the category called:
The stuff I don't know, that I don't know. This area is where ALL the good stuff is. If you don't go there, or are not willing to look, you'll miss the good stuff!

-Jack

 

[Top Jimmy]

^^^ All true, but a leather grip does not change the measurable swingweight. A leather grip does add mass to the tail end which will also increase the recoilweight. So... Recoilweight is fancy talk for it wont add much in the way of power, or oomph, or velocity, but tail weighting does help the the racquet to resist the forces that will want to push, recoil, and rotate the racquet around the balance point in the throat, when the ball hits the strings. In other words, and said as simply as possible, tail weighting makes the frame more stable, and more shock resistant.

-Jack

I think that should help him/her realize it's how it feels that matters, not some un-quantifiable measurement they are looking for. It adds weight and changes the feel. Everything else is tennis racket pontification.

 

[Torres]

^^^ All true, but a leather grip does not change the measurable swingweight.

I'm not sure that that's correct. Adding weight anywhere on the racquet will always increase its actual swingweight. In very simple terms, the total amount of weight which you have to swing is simply higher - it can't not be, given that you've increased the mass.

I think the reason why its sometimes suggested by people that adding weight in the handle doesn't increase the swingweight is because they're mixing 'actual weightweight' with say 'RDC swingweight' which we know produces a standardized but arbitary figure for "swingweight" based on a pivot point in the handle (10cm from the butt?). So if you're adding weight at the pivot point, its not going to produce a different 'RDC measurement for swingweight' even though the actual swingweight will always be higher because of the added mass. But in reality, you swing or throw the racquet in all sorts of directions when playing tennis, when serving, on groundstrokes etc - its not around an arbitrary fixed pivot point.

I'm happy to be corrected, but adding +1g or even +2g to the handle of my racquets (c346g) for example, suprisingly slows the head speed and makes them fractoinally harder to swing with the same velocity (SW is already c337g). It does increase racquet stability though, so I agree with the rest of what you say ;-)

 

[Bartelby]

I think its adding weight anywhere 4" or above from the end of the grip will increase swingweight as that's where its measured from.

 

[Jakesteroni]

The leather grip does noticeably make a difference in playing characteristics. I like the leather grips because they don't compress as much as the synthetics, but I like the synthetics because they don't add weight to cause me to add more weight to offset. I play with the Pure Storm Tour and it's already 12.2oz strung or so with OG and dampner, when adding leather now it becomes 12.6oz all of a sudden the swing speed is slowed down, but I get a little more plow through. I had to do trial's to see which better suits my swing and game and chose to do synthetic as I didn't want the 13oz racket. Solution would be buy the Pure Storm and lead up to the same specs with leather, but I'm tired of playing around with the racket and just want to play tennis so I'm content with the Tours in their stock form with synthetic grip and as the synthetics change their form over playing time I'll just change em out again.

 

[mykoh]

first of all, awesome buy. loving the 95d myself. i put leather mainly because i like the feel (and the smell it leaves on your hands) and because i needed to counterbalance some lead i've placed on 10, 12 and 2. that's all.

helps to know what balance, static and swing weight you prefer. that would help you decide whether to stick with the leather or not.

one thing to note, the leather grip is typically thicker than the stock grip. so unless you get those thinner leathers it'll enlarge the overall gripsize.

 

[Litespeeds]

Regardless with the stock grip or leather grip, I use a Yonex SuperGrap overgrip on it. I don't use any racquets without over grip.

 

[ChicagoJack]

I'm not sure that that's correct. Adding weight anywhere on the racquet will always increase its actual swingweight. In very simple terms, the total amount of weight which you have to swing is simply higher - it can't not be, given that you've increased the mass.

I think the reason why its sometimes suggested by people that adding weight in the handle doesn't increase the swingweight is because they're mixing 'actual weightweight' with say 'RDC swingweight' which we know produces a standardized but arbitary figure for "swingweight" based on a pivot point in the handle (10cm from the butt?). So if you're adding weight at the pivot point, its not going to produce a different 'RDC measurement for swingweight' even though the actual swingweight will always be higher because of the added mass. But in reality, you swing or throw the racquet in all sorts of directions when playing tennis, when serving, on groundstrokes etc - its not around an arbitrary fixed pivot point.

I'm happy to be corrected, but adding +1g or even +2g to the handle of my racquets (c346g) for example, suprisingly slows the head speed and makes them fractoinally harder to swing with the same velocity (SW is already c337g). It does increase racquet stability though, so I agree with the rest of what you say ;-)

Hi Torres,

Yeah cool, we are on the same page mostly, it's all good my brother. In absolute agreement with you that adding a leather grip makes a difference that can be felt on pick up, and you for sure feel it when you swing. It's just that you are playing pretty fast and loose with what the term swingweight is and is not. I think that's a good place to start.

The Terminology Problem / What SW is and is not The term "swingweight" (also expressed as as kg·cm² ) is a wickedly awful curve ball of a term. It really ought to be called pivotweight. Problem solved. Whomever the eff was at the design party for racquet physics terminology really put the rest of us dumb jocks into a linguistic pickle jar thank you very much. Yeah it has the word "swing" in there, but as you have rightly noted, swingweight is obtained by placing a racquet into the RDC device, and the racquet is rotated at the 10 CM axis. We both know this has nothing whatsoever with a real swing, where the racquet undergoes several changes in acceleration, elevation, starts in one point in space, collides with a tennis ball, and ends up in another location from whence it started.

So... if we all agree that SW sucks as a proxy for how a racquet feels to a tennis player as he swings it, then... it's best not use the term for that faulty translation! How something feels to a player cannot be measured, but swingweight can. It's simply one of the useful, objective pieces of data, like balance point, that we can use to sort out what might be worth a demo.

Adding A Leather Grip, and Changes In SW:
Let's start with the specs of my racquet, just cause I have that handy in my noggin. Your average leather grip adds 10 grams. But just to illustrate the point, let's say we add two leather grips. That's 20 grams total. The average pallet is 7" long. If we spread that 20g evenly thru the length of the handle, you would likely[1],[2] increase the swingweight from 326 to 326.8. That's a dif 2/10 of 1 percent. And remember, this would be for adding two leather grips, not one.

Donnay Pro One 16x19
27"
33 cm balance
326g weight
326 swingweight
---------
+ 2 leather grips on 1 racquet = 20 grams
= 326.8 sw

That's what I mean when I say "adding a leather grip does not increase the measurable swingweight". The difference is so small, it likely cannot be measured even as a single digit change.. even if you add two leather grips. Yeah I totally get yer drift that adding mass anywhere has got to increase SW., it "can't not increase" as you say. I totally get that. But I could also say, for example, that the ocean has less water in it, when I come back to the beach from my swim, because some of the water is still on my skin. I'd be right too, but not in any practical sort of way that can be measured.

[1]
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/customizationReverse.php

[2]

Jack

 

[kaiser]

Jack, I don't think this really addresses the point made by Torres. If I understand you correctly you are showing here that, although the addition of one or even two leather grips will raise the swingweight(as measured on an RDC machine), it is by such a small amount that it's negligeable. If I understand Torres correctly, he's saying that the RDC-swingweight is only a proxy for the actual swingweight that your body experiences when swinging a racket, and not a very good one at that.

In essence, he's saying tennis strokes are biomechanically very complex and highly variable with many pivot points that matter, and that therefore the RDC-SW of a racket gives only a limited approximation of how hard or easy it will be to swing that racket in reality. I would agree with that. In discussions on swingweight on this forum the RDC-SW has acquired an absolute status where people fret over a couple of points difference. It is often overlooked that your arm on its own already has several swingweights (or more precisely: angular moments of inertia) around different pivot points (torso, shoulder, elbow, wrist). As a human arm will weigh something in the order of 3 to 5 kg, its swingweight will inherently be much bigger than that of the racket.

In other words, when swinging just your arm, without holding a racket, you will already have to overcome a large swingweight or moment of inertia, whereas the RDC-SW will be zero (no racket). Now to Torres' point, suppose you grab a steel bar of 10 cm (say, 1 kg), its RDC-SW will also be zero, but will it be just as easy to swing your arm as empty-handed?

 

[Torres]

Hi Torres,

Yeah cool, we are on the same page mostly, it's all good my brother. In absolute agreement with you that adding a leather grip makes a difference that can be felt on pick up, and you for sure feel it when you swing. It's just that you are playing pretty fast and loose with what the term swingweight is and is not. I think that's a good place to start.

The Terminology Problem / What SW is and is not The term "swingweight" (also expressed as as kg·cm² ) is a wickedly awful curve ball of a term. It really ought to be called pivotweight. Problem solved. Whomever the eff was at the design party for racquet physics terminology really put the rest of us dumb jocks into a linguistic pickle jar thank you very much. Yeah it has the word "swing" in there, but as you have rightly noted, swingweight is obtained by placing a racquet into the RDC device, and the racquet is rotated at the 10 CM axis. We both know this has nothing whatsoever with a real swing, where the racquet undergoes several changes in acceleration, elevation, starts in one point in space, collides with a tennis ball, and ends up in another location from whence it started.

So... if we all agree that SW sucks as a proxy for how a racquet feels to a tennis player as he swings it, then... it's best not use the term for that faulty translation! How something feels to a player cannot be measured, but swingweight can. It's simply one of the useful, objective pieces of data, like balance point, that we can use to sort out what might be worth a demo.

Adding A Leather Grip, and Changes In SW:
Let's start with the specs of my racquet, just cause I have that handy in my noggin. Your average leather grip adds 10 grams. But just to illustrate the point, let's say we add two leather grips. That's 20 grams total. The average pallet is 7" long. If we spread that 20g evenly thru the length of the handle, you would likely[1],[2] increase the swingweight from 326 to 326.8. That's a dif 2/10 of 1 percent. And remember, this would be for adding two leather grips, not one.

Donnay Pro One 16x19
27"
33 cm balance
326g weight
326 swingweight
---------
+ 2 leather grips on 1 racquet = 20 grams
= 326.8 sw

That's what I mean when I say "adding a leather grip does not increase the measurable swingweight". The difference is so small, it likely cannot be measured even as a single digit change.. even if you add two leather grips. Yeah I totally get yer drift that adding mass anywhere has got to increase SW., it "can't not increase" as you say. I totally get that. But I could also say, for example, that the ocean has less water in it, when I come back to the beach from my swim, because some of the water is still on my skin. I'd be right too, but not in any practical sort of way that can be measured.

[1]
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/customizationReverse.php

[2]

Jack

Very well explained. Much appreciated. Pivot weight would indeed be a much better and more accurate term. I guess it just it doesn't sound as sexy when you're a racquet manufacturer trying to sell racquets! ;-)

 

[ChicagoJack]

Very well explained. Much appreciated. Pivot weight would indeed be a much better and more accurate term. I guess it just it doesn't sound as sexy when you're a racquet manufacturer trying to sell racquets! ;-)

Torres - Thanks! And yeah.. PivotWeight isn't very sexy. Perhaps I need to work on another term before I ask everybody to get out their pitchforks, and start a coup for dif terminology.

If I understand you correctly you are showing here that, although the addition of one or even two leather grips will raise the swingweight(as measured on an RDC machine), it is by such a small amount that it's negligeable.

Kaiser - You've re-stated my point a bit incorrectly. The only thing I can add to what's already been posted is that the Babolat RDC doesn't read 326.2, 326.4, etc... It only reads whole numbers. The likely result of adding a leather grip is so slight that it's almost unmeasurable, so small that the RDC probably wont even sense it. This is why I said "adding a leather grip does not add measurable swingweight". I dug up a YouTube video that might help you to understand how this thing works, check the very end.

With regards to SW being a horrible proxy for a real tennis swing, Yeah no kidding. I'm kinda left wondering If you read my post, because there's two paragraphs in there that states this pretty clearly. Perhaps you skimmed over the context, and focused on the math I posted? I could lay it all out on the table again, but I'd just be re-stating. Hope this helps.

Babolat RDC (Racquet Diagnostic Center)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67ndPgE5ITU

Jack

 

[kaiser]

Hi Jack, yeah, I did skim over it and on reading back realize that we are basically in agreement. I guess I was a bit wrong-footed by your TWU calculations which, to my mind, just reiterate that adding weight to the handle area has a negligeable effect on RDC-SW.

 

[ChicagoJack]

^^^ Hi Kaiser, yeah cool. No problemo! It's tough to cover that topic well, but keep still keep it a short read. I get kinda long winded at times. I think I to need keep a copy editor on hand lol.