What's up with Fed's shoulder tilt in his 1hbh prep?

#1
@StringSnapper @J011yroger @ChaelAZ @FiReFTW

This came up in another thread. I noticed Fed, and many pros often have shoulders tilted forward in the backswing of their 1hbhs. I was stumped at first trying to figure out the "why" ... what did it gain him? I think I came up with the reasons below ... please chime in if I'm wrong, or there is a better explanation.

Note: video at bottom of post.



On many of Fed's 1hbh strokes, he has a shoulder tilt forward at backswing, gets to level or shoulder tilt up by contact, and finishes with shoulder tilted up in follow through. Note: the arm in the follow through finishes in line with shoulder line, not arm raised above shoulder line (The hand ends up above head because of shoulder tilt up ... not because the arm swing path took the arm up in the shoulder joint above shoulder line).

At first I thought, maybe he just tilts laterally in the prep. No, that does not seem to happen. Then I thought, he is lifting the racquet with off hand in backswing, so it's really the left shoulder coming up causing the tilt. That theory lasted a while until it hit me ... if you bend at the waist, then rotate the shoulders, the back shoulder goes up, and the front shoulder goes down. DOH!!! or is that DUH!!! At a minimum, maybe rec 1hbh players need to consider if they need to bend at the waist more ... and when.

OK ... fine ... that explains the shoulder tilt, but why the bending at the waist. This is my best theory ... maybe others can explain it better.

I think Fed is trying to hit the stroke with his hitting arm as close to the shoulder line as possible. If you consider the best serves (read that here ... ttw can be good) happen with the arm aligned with shoulders line (we tilt shoulders rather than just raise arm up). That is the power source. I think Fed is trying to come as close to that as possible with the 1hbh. He can't exactly in the backswing and initial swing ... the arm is angled down some with the drop to slot. BUT ... if you watch his full 1hbh strokes, it seems pretty apparent he is staying close enough to shoulder line to get the easy shoulder rotation power (requires less arm addition in stroke). For example ... I checked my 1hbh video. I don't bend enough, so when I have to hit a waist (or lower) 1hbh, the only way to do that is to drop the hand lower (my angle at right shoulder to right arm is bigger than Fed by quite a bit). By definition, if you lose shoulder rotation power/efficiency ... pretty much leaves the arm to make up the difference.

I guess my main thought is other than high 1hbhs which require a more horizontal swing (arm more in line with shoulder line), I think a bunch of us rec players need to bend at the waist more on many 1hbhs. Most of us are plugged into "bend the knees more" ... to which I say "up yours, my knees are about to be 61". But now my response might be "dude ... your bending of the knees so you can keep from bending at your waste is robbing you of 1hbh power".

I like this ... I like the idea of bending at the waist more than deep knee bend. I also already knew I needed a better hand swing path from the slot to above my shoulders. I had the false idea I needed to lift the arm more at the shoulder joint. Don't think so.... think I need to tilt the shoulder line up more at contact while bent at waist ... and do all of it with more easy power because arm stayed closer in line with shoulder line.

That is my theory until ttw destroys it.

 
#6
More rotation leads to more shoulder tilt does it not? I don't think there is any special reason for it. Maybe someone has a better theory, but for me it just happened naturally as a consequence of the rotation.
 
#7
More rotation leads to more shoulder tilt does it not? I don't think there is any special reason for it. Maybe someone has a better theory, but for me it just happened naturally as a consequence of the rotation.
Yes ... if you have bent over at the waste. Otherwise it would be shoulders level with the court with rotation.
 
#10
not a big deal.... most contacts are below the shoulder.

the unwinding of the 1hbh is done by the shoulder... if you don't tilt forward, a flat shoulder will not be able to get to the ball!

if the incoming were high, you can hit it perfectly with a flat shoulder.

isn't this the same on the fh side? the hitting shoulder has to be lower.

Sampras even walks funny with the right shoulder lower than the left lol.
 
#15
What?

Bend at the waist and knees are the same thing, I challenge you to do one without the other.

He is tilting forward cause he's leaning into the shot, his weight is going into the ball. Shoulders tilted down cause its a low to high swing path. He turns extensively and shows most of his back to his opponent to gather rotational power. I think this is simple to see, no need to over analyze.
 
#16
As seen above, the tilt happen on both the 1-hander & the 2-hander. I learned this 20 yrs ago. Felt right but never knew the reasoning behind it.


https://tennisudin.wordpress.com/2015/04/20/the-tilt/
Watched it ... good find. I think the tilted shoulders on the backswing of both the 1hbh and 2hbh are analogous .... both caused from torso bent forward causing shoulder rotation to raise back shoulder. BUT ... if you are trying to make a parallel between 1hbh hitting arm trying to stay as close on plane with shoulder line, you have to follow the non-dominant arm/hand swing path to contact and follow through. I think you are swinging both arms pendulum in 2hbh at the initial part of forward swing, so even more complicated to talk about 2 arms trying to swing as close to shoulder line as possible. Yes ... has to be the same thing, though.
 
#17
You can:

1) bend at the waist with no knee bend
2) bend the knees and maintain a vertical torso
3) bend the knees and bend at the waist
4) leaning into shot seems like legs to me, I can do that bent at waist or with a vertical torso
5) @Dou ... I think you can get to a low ball without bending at the waist ... and that is exactly the point of this thread (I think ... might not be a point o_O)

1hbh low balls ... three contributors

1) angle arm down from shoulder
2) bend knees
3) bend at the waist

The point of this thread is I'm willing to bet many of us (I do based on my 1hbh video) bend too little at the waist causing us to have to angle arm down more from the shoulder joint. If you throw in don't bend your knees or band at the waist ... you are all arm angle (not good)..

So for example, if I worked on this with my 1hbh in Spring, I would expect to work in the following sequence:

Note: review video sessions

1) bend more at the waist and see how that changes my arm/hand swing path
2) assuming my hitting arm/hand is still dropping to far out of line from shoulder line, work on that next
3) if all goes well, finish my making sure follow through on topspin shots finish with arm/hand higher and in line with shoulder line based on shoulder tilt up ... not raising arm above shoulder line.

Something like that. I think the complicating factors are "how much bend at the waist per ball height" ... "how much shoulder/upper arm angle is too much angle"? If one was willing to bend knees more, at the waist more ... even more complicated. The main idea/theory here was "swing hitting arm more parallel with the shoulder line rotation throughout the swing". Well... the more you bend the knees, the less you need to bend at the waist to accomplish "x". What's the right knee bend to waist bend ration? Good luck with that.

Yeah ... just bend a bit more at the waist and see what happens. :p
 
#18
Surely it's just naturally the rear shoulder going up to raise the racket
Maybe ... perhaps you get some shoulder line tilt from just from raising the racquet with a fairly vertical torso, and then more when bending at the waist.

@ChaelAZ looks pretty vertical on this stroke, and he has some shoulder tilt. Wawrinka is bending at the waist with more tilt. Fed appears to end up with quite a bit more tilt than Wawrinka ... would have to check if it's because he bends more. Looking at the pic in my fist post, probably just raises the racquet more.

 
#21
@ByeByePoly , believe it or not I've been thinking about it since I watched Edberg in this video. :)



Watching Thiem, he gets into that shoulder tilt even on high balls without bending at the waist. So putting the tilt and bending at the waist to the side ... the following pic shows what I think is the issue:



Blue line represents my 1hbh hand position. I have been using the phrase "trying to get the hitting arm/hand a close to shoulder line as possible to get max power assist from shoulder turn". I can see how that would be confusing. In line would be the arm continuing on straight out from the shoulder line. Obviously that isn't how we hit a 1hbh. What I mean, is when the hand first starts forward at the bottom of the slot... the arm is up ... say close to a 90 degree extension of the shoulder line. That works... you turn the shoulders you turn the lever straight out (close as you can get) from your torso. With my arm position (blue line) ... my arm is hanging down more rather than being a lever pulled extending from the torso ... i.e. I get shoulder turn assist, but from that position I have to exert more arm.

So like always ... prep is seldom the main issue. It's always at the back of the slot ... right when the shoulder turn starts forward, and in the case of the 1hbh, the upper arm starts forward (sometimes extended arm like Thiem, sometimes elbow still bent like Fed ... doesn't matter ... the shoulder line/upper arm angle and position is the source of easy power from the shoulder turn imo).

So long thread to say ... "don't let you arm being hanging to far down vertical when you swing from the slot". :p:p:p

I checked you BH video, but you were hitting almost all high balls. It would be interesting to see you hit some lower bouncing 1hbh.

Cheers ... did you hear I love you ... or at least some in your vicinity. :p:p:p
 
#22
Mechanically speaking you never really needed your legs to hit a OHBH, or even a forehand for that matter.
Legs/knees give you the ability to get into position, and provide power, not that much more other than those.

I can hit top spin OHBH with minimal leg/knee work (think warmup/mini tennis/slow to mid paced rallies).
Shoulder rotation, stable arm and wrist are what's getting most one handers.
 
#23
I was practicing OHBHs on the wall today. Moving drop hits. I was trying a vertical take back Wawrinka style. Seemed to definitely give me more top.

And spreading the wings and taking weight completely off back foot. And hitting ball at 7 o' clock.

That seem to produce an acceptable shot
 
#25
Watching Thiem, he gets into that shoulder tilt even on high balls without bending at the waist. So putting the tilt and bending at the waist to the side ... the following pic shows what I think is the issue:



Blue line represents my 1hbh hand position. I have been using the phrase "trying to get the hitting arm/hand a close to shoulder line as possible to get max power assist from shoulder turn". I can see how that would be confusing. In line would be the arm continuing on straight out from the shoulder line. Obviously that isn't how we hit a 1hbh. What I mean, is when the hand first starts forward at the bottom of the slot... the arm is up ... say close to a 90 degree extension of the shoulder line. That works... you turn the shoulders you turn the lever straight out (close as you can get) from your torso. With my arm position (blue line) ... my arm is hanging down more rather than being a lever pulled extending from the torso ... i.e. I get shoulder turn assist, but from that position I have to exert more arm.

So like always ... prep is seldom the main issue. It's always at the back of the slot ... right when the shoulder turn starts forward, and in the case of the 1hbh, the upper arm starts forward (sometimes extended arm like Thiem, sometimes elbow still bent like Fed ... doesn't matter ... the shoulder line/upper arm angle and position is the source of easy power from the shoulder turn imo).

So long thread to say ... "don't let you arm being hanging to far down vertical when you swing from the slot". :p:p:p

I checked you BH video, but you were hitting almost all high balls. It would be interesting to see you hit some lower bouncing 1hbh.

Cheers ... did you hear I love you ... or at least some in your vicinity. :p:p:p
yes, a shoulder tilt is to make the shoulder plane closer to the slot plane so that the shoulder unwind can provide the max power... so the racket can travel high-low-high for most balls.

you rarely see pros do this as their footwork is so good - but if you 1hbh a ball higher than your head - (yes it's possible but you won't get much power there) - the right shoulder is actually HIGHER than the left - so the racket head travels low-high-low.


e.g. the ones at 1:20 and 2:00.... the right shoulder is higher.
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#26
I believe there is a very simple reason for that position of the right shoulder (if right-handed): it is probably the most natural position, if one is trying to get maximum power from the uncoiling of his body, and at the same time provide stability of the shot (more needed with the OHBH).

What I mean by "providing stability" is that your body is uncoiling low to high, which is what is happening with the travel of the racket before it hits the ball (there are other scenarios, but that is a very common occurrence), so they are a kind of going into the shot from roughly similar position, until one squares his shoulders, and the racket face meets the ball.

It can also be a variable to control the striking zone, as one can time his swing without compromising the power behind the shot, by providing a moving platform from which to accelerate the racquet at the necessary time.


:cool:
 
#27
I think we swing from the slot, not from the top of the backswing, so if "swinging closer to shoulder plane for power is a thing", I would observe/compare from the slot forward.

For example, Thiem does not swing (uncoil) from pic #1 below, he uncoils from pic #2.



So for me, if I was going to go review pro 1hbhs for this thread, I don't think the prep/backswing is the central point, even though I focused on the shoulder tilt in backswing when I created the thread. The important part is the "what is it accomplishing" ... which to me has to be measured/observed from slot forward.

I thought this Fed Sequence is informative/interesting:



Observations:

- The uncoiling doesn't start until pic #3 (maybe a little before)
- shoulders already starting to tilt in early prep in pic #1
- to me, in pic #2, he looks tilted laterally toward the net, along with bending at the waste ???
- for the main purpose of this thread, I think pic #3, #4 and #5 is the visual test of how close to shoulder plane do pros get with there 1hbhs

I guess just thinking/typing out loud ... one question would be is this just a "max power" consideration. Pros are grasping for fractions of improvement to compete at their level of competition. The rec players wins are always going to come down to UEs, repeatable control, etc. I am not convinced in this case "max 1hbh power for a pro" equates to a good choice for rec players.

I will a post couple pics of me hitting a 1hbh for example. I hit the same basic technique for 40 years ... and at the rec 4.5 level my flat 1hbh held up well. In particular, the dtl pass was very reliable. What I never had was big pace or much topspin (not much low to high swing, and I hit with continental grip).

Note the downward angle of my arm as I uncoil, and compare that to Fed (other pros). Although this feels smooth to me, it must require a bit more arm muscle to complete the stroke. I know even at that angle, I get momentum from racquet drop/pendulum ... and also momentum from shoulder rotation. This thread/theory is "I could get more easy momentum from shoulder uncoiling with less vertical arm angle from shoulder (bend more ... whatever ... end up with arm more out than down".



To my logic, and my shadow swinging, it does seem like I get more easy momentum with arm less down. I have mainly switched to 2hbh, but got curious about this watching @StringSnapper thread. If I mess with 1hbh this spring, I would experiment with this and an eastern grip and more low to high. I have already experimented with Eastern grip some, and it was pretty obvious that topspin was easier. That said ... for flat dtl ... keeping the continental. To me, slight grip changes on strokes ... like cont and eastern 1hbhs should be no more trouble than changing grips between FH and BH. I already do this on FHs ... roll a bit more when I go for the occasional max ts.
 
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#28
.....................................................................

I thought this Fed Sequence is informative/interesting:



Observations:

- The uncoiling doesn't start until pic #3 (maybe a little before)
- shoulders already starting to tilt in early prep in pic #1
- to me, in pic #2, he looks tilted laterally toward the net, along with bending at the waste ???
- for the main purpose of this thread, I think pic #3, #4 and #5 is the visual test of how close to shoulder plane do pros get with there 1hbhs

.......................................................................................................
Note the downward angle of my arm as I uncoil, and compare that to Fed (other pros). Although this feels smooth to me, it must require a bit more arm muscle to complete the stroke. I know even at that angle, I get momentum from racquet drop/pendulum ... and also momentum from shoulder rotation. This thread/theory is "I could get more easy momentum from shoulder uncoiling with less vertical arm angle from shoulder (bend more ... whatever ... end up with arm more out than down".


..............................................................................
There are two axes involved in the one hand backhand forward swing. They may be used one at a time or both together and to varying degrees.
1) The spine around the neck area - the shoulder girdle rotates around this axis.
2) The shoulder joint. When the upper arm separates from the chest it can rotate around the shoulder joint as an axis.

What is 'shoulder uncoiling'.? Uppermost body turn, shoulder girdle turn. OR upper arm motion in the shoulder joint?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These players have turned back their shoulder girdles using the spine/neck as an axis. The scapula has also moved forward. "Separation" of the line between the shoulders and the line between the hips also occurs. (I can't get my chin to go back as far as my shoulder and maybe you can't either.)

Shoulder girdle take back so that chin appears behind shoulder.




Shoulder girdle take back so that chin appears over shoulder.







------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Look at pictures #2 & #3. The upper arm separates from the chest. One axis of rotation is the shoulder joint and the shoulder girdle has turned also. Federer uses both axes together.


Different one hand backhand. Look at the upper arm in picture #1 and picture #2 of this 3D motion capture rendition of Federer's backhand. The shoulder girdle also appears to rotate but it is not so clear.

This is a different technique than that used by Gasquet, Wawrinka and Justine Henin. First they use shoulder girdle turn and later the upper arm comes off the chest. I posted on that in a thread.
 
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#29
I think we swing from the slot, not from the top of the backswing, so if "swinging closer to shoulder plane for power is a thing", I would observe/compare from the slot forward.

For example, Thiem does not swing (uncoil) from pic #1 below, he uncoils from pic #2.



So for me, if I was going to go review pro 1hbhs for this thread, I don't think the prep/backswing is the central point, even though I focused on the shoulder tilt in backswing when I created the thread. The important part is the "what is it accomplishing" ... which to me has to be measured/observed from slot forward.

I thought this Fed Sequence is informative/interesting:



Observations:

- The uncoiling doesn't start until pic #3 (maybe a little before)
- shoulders already starting to tilt in early prep in pic #1
- to me, in pic #2, he looks tilted laterally toward the net, along with bending at the waste ???
- for the main purpose of this thread, I think pic #3, #4 and #5 is the visual test of how close to shoulder plane do pros get with there 1hbhs

I guess just thinking/typing out loud ... one question would be is this just a "max power" consideration. Pros are grasping for fractions of improvement to compete at their level of competition. The rec players wins are always going to come down to UEs, repeatable control, etc. I am not convinced in this case "max 1hbh power for a pro" equates to a good choice for rec players.

I will a post couple pics of me hitting a 1hbh for example. I hit the same basic technique for 40 years ... and at the rec 4.5 level my flat 1hbh held up well. In particular, the dtl pass was very reliable. What I never had was big pace or much topspin (not much low to high swing, and I hit with continental grip).

Note the downward angle of my arm as I uncoil, and compare that to Fed (other pros). Although this feels smooth to me, it must require a bit more arm muscle to complete the stroke. I know even at that angle, I get momentum from racquet drop/pendulum ... and also momentum from shoulder rotation. This thread/theory is "I could get more easy momentum from shoulder uncoiling with less vertical arm angle from shoulder (bend more ... whatever ... end up with arm more out than down".



To my logic, and my shadow swinging, it does seem like I get more easy momentum with arm less down. I have mainly switched to 2hbh, but got curious about this watching @StringSnapper thread. If I mess with 1hbh this spring, I would experiment with this and an eastern grip and more low to high. I have already experimented with Eastern grip some, and it was pretty obvious that topspin was easier. That said ... for flat dtl ... keeping the continental. To me, slight grip changes on strokes ... like cont and eastern 1hbhs should be no more trouble than changing grips between FH and BH. I already do this on FHs ... roll a bit more when I go for the occasional max ts.
Have you posted a video of hitting ur 1hbh before?

Your racquet face looks quite tilted down in the first frame, what grip do you use? western? In the second frame it looks almost eastern or conti, maybe there isn't enough 90 degree angle between frame and forearm in that moment?

also in the first frame might be better if your off arm elbow was higher (i like the "holding a beach ball" analogy), but it might just be the frame. would be good to see a video
 
#30
There are two axes involved in the one hand backhand forward swing. They may be used one at a time or both together and to varying degrees.
1) The spine around the neck area - the shoulder girdle rotates around this axis.
2) The shoulder joint. When the upper arm separates from the chest it can rotate around the shoulder joint as an axis.

What is 'shoulder uncoiling'.? Uppermost body turn, shoulder girdle turn. OR upper arm motion in the shoulder joint?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These players have turned back their shoulder girdles using the spine/neck as an axis. The scapula has also moved forward. "Separation" of the line between the shoulders and the line between the hips also occurs. (I can't get my chin to go back as far as my shoulder and maybe you can't either.)

Shoulder girdle turn back so that chin appears behind shoulder.




Shoulder girdle turn back so that chin appears over shoulder.







------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Look at pictures #2 & #3. The upper arm separates from the chest. One axis of rotation is the shoulder joint and the shoulder girdle has turned also. Federer uses both axes together.


Diffferenct one hand backhand. Look at the upper arm in picture #1 and picture #2 of this 3D motion capture rendition of Federer's backhand. The shoulder girdle also appears to rotate but it is not so clear.

This is a different technique than that used by Gasquet, Wawrinka and Justine Henin. First they use shoulder girdle turn and later the upper arm comes off the chest. I posted on that in a thread.
Will read tomorrow and comment. OMG ... Guga pics look like Linda Blair in The Exorcist.

fyi ... when I look for point of shoulder uncoiling (turn), I just advance the frames from backswing to slot and then try and pic out when the shoulder line starts to rotate forward.

Will read better tomorrow.
 
#31
I think we swing from the slot, not from the top of the backswing, so if "swinging closer to shoulder plane for power is a thing", I would observe/compare from the slot forward.

For example, Thiem does not swing (uncoil) from pic #1 below, he uncoils from pic #2.



So for me, if I was going to go review pro 1hbhs for this thread, I don't think the prep/backswing is the central point, even though I focused on the shoulder tilt in backswing when I created the thread. The important part is the "what is it accomplishing" ... which to me has to be measured/observed from slot forward.

I thought this Fed Sequence is informative/interesting:



Observations:

- The uncoiling doesn't start until pic #3 (maybe a little before)
- shoulders already starting to tilt in early prep in pic #1
- to me, in pic #2, he looks tilted laterally toward the net, along with bending at the waste ???
- for the main purpose of this thread, I think pic #3, #4 and #5 is the visual test of how close to shoulder plane do pros get with there 1hbhs

I guess just thinking/typing out loud ... one question would be is this just a "max power" consideration. Pros are grasping for fractions of improvement to compete at their level of competition. The rec players wins are always going to come down to UEs, repeatable control, etc. I am not convinced in this case "max 1hbh power for a pro" equates to a good choice for rec players.

I will a post couple pics of me hitting a 1hbh for example. I hit the same basic technique for 40 years ... and at the rec 4.5 level my flat 1hbh held up well. In particular, the dtl pass was very reliable. What I never had was big pace or much topspin (not much low to high swing, and I hit with continental grip).

Note the downward angle of my arm as I uncoil, and compare that to Fed (other pros). Although this feels smooth to me, it must require a bit more arm muscle to complete the stroke. I know even at that angle, I get momentum from racquet drop/pendulum ... and also momentum from shoulder rotation. This thread/theory is "I could get more easy momentum from shoulder uncoiling with less vertical arm angle from shoulder (bend more ... whatever ... end up with arm more out than down".



To my logic, and my shadow swinging, it does seem like I get more easy momentum with arm less down. I have mainly switched to 2hbh, but got curious about this watching @StringSnapper thread. If I mess with 1hbh this spring, I would experiment with this and an eastern grip and more low to high. I have already experimented with Eastern grip some, and it was pretty obvious that topspin was easier. That said ... for flat dtl ... keeping the continental. To me, slight grip changes on strokes ... like cont and eastern 1hbhs should be no more trouble than changing grips between FH and BH. I already do this on FHs ... roll a bit more when I go for the occasional max ts.
Does look a bit like your driving a low slice/ flat shot, the first pic has really open face pointing toward thesky
 
#32
Have you posted a video of hitting ur 1hbh before?

Your racquet face looks quite tilted down in the first frame, what grip do you use? western? In the second frame it looks almost eastern or conti, maybe there isn't enough 90 degree angle between frame and forearm in that moment?

also in the first frame might be better if your off arm elbow was higher (i like the "holding a beach ball" analogy), but it might just be the frame. would be good to see a video
Continental ... I have posted before, maybe tomorrow ... but for the point of the thread I think it is about slot forward. Check my comments previous in this thread. Time for sleep (y) ... will check tomorrow.
 
#33
Maybe ... perhaps you get some shoulder line tilt from just from raising the racquet with a fairly vertical torso, and then more when bending at the waist.

@ChaelAZ looks pretty vertical on this stroke, and he has some shoulder tilt. Wawrinka is bending at the waist with more tilt. Fed appears to end up with quite a bit more tilt than Wawrinka ... would have to check if it's because he bends more. Looking at the pic in my fist post, probably just raises the racquet more.

I tend to be more upright, but I find the shoulder dip is natural when bringing the racquet back and up. Thinking about it, probably more to clear my chin....okay, maybe not, but it does help.
 
#34
There are two axes involved in the one hand backhand forward swing. They may be used one at a time or both together and to varying degrees.
1) The spine around the neck area - the shoulder girdle rotates around this axis.
2) The shoulder joint. When the upper arm separates from the chest it can rotate around the shoulder joint as an axis.

What is 'shoulder uncoiling'.? Uppermost body turn, shoulder girdle turn. OR upper arm motion in the shoulder joint?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These players have turned back their shoulder girdles using the spine/neck as an axis. The scapula has also moved forward. "Separation" of the line between the shoulders and the line between the hips also occurs. (I can't get my chin to go back as far as my shoulder and maybe you can't either.)

Shoulder girdle turn back so that chin appears behind shoulder.




Shoulder girdle turn back so that chin appears over shoulder.







------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Look at pictures #2 & #3. The upper arm separates from the chest. One axis of rotation is the shoulder joint and the shoulder girdle has turned also. Federer uses both axes together.


Different one hand backhand. Look at the upper arm in picture #1 and picture #2 of this 3D motion capture rendition of Federer's backhand. The shoulder girdle also appears to rotate but it is not so clear.

This is a different technique than that used by Gasquet, Wawrinka and Justine Henin. First they use shoulder girdle turn and later the upper arm comes off the chest. I posted on that in a thread.
Good post ... sounds like my "shoulder uncoiling/turn" is what you called shoulder girdle. For this post I am not concerned with arm movement at shoulder other than angle from shoulder (swing plane of hitting arm in reference to shoulder line/torso). I think I have a better way to make the point ... will post later.
 
#35
Does look a bit like your driving a low slice/ flat shot, the first pic has really open face pointing toward thesky
Every backhand (1hbh, 2hbh, volley) I hit has racquet face open in the backswing ... AND ... always will. :p Tenfan and Jolly pointed it out in my 2hbh videos. I was in the process of changing that, but found video of open face on Evert's 2hbh, Rosewall's 1hbh and McEnroe 's bh volley. Now I embrace it. 8-B(y) I get more arm roll from pronation to supination into contact ... everyone else is at a disadvantage. That's my story and my BHs and I'm sticking with it ... signature move.

fyi ... Tenfan labeled it sunnyside up. :mad:
 
#36
Focusing on the main point of this thread now that I have thought through it ... it was said best by @Dou above:

"yes, a shoulder tilt is to make the shoulder plane closer to the slot plane so that the shoulder unwind can provide the max power"

That is what I am testing ... opening up to debate.

{warning: a strange tennis post to follow ... even stranger than this thread so far o_O}

I will bring in the @J011yroger Solid Snake for visual analogy. For it's origin, check out this thread ... some better pics of Jolly's tennis science garage R&D ( https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...the-monkey-drum-analogy.630167/#post-12839471 )

Jolly Solid Snake (tm);



The solid snake in that video represents torso/shoulder (shoulder girdle for Chas) rotation delivered to the arm+ racquet lever (not f***ing rope) in plane with the shoulder line.

So we can assume that max rotation is delivered to that snake (what the heck is that ... battery cable) because it is in plane with the top of that spinning thing (again ... wtf ... maybe a gear).

Now imagine ... bending that little cable significantly down before the spin. Does the snake (I am assuming the snake is the cable btw ... who knows, it's Jolly) spin with the same pace. I would say no ... dear ttw reader ... it has spin dysfunction.

So ask yourself ... how does the snake hit a low ball and still maintain that quality max snake spin rate? If the ball isn't too low, the gears legs (work with me here) bend more, and get that snake level with the top of the gear and the ball.

Yeah... this is tennis ... that doesn't happen on low balls. You can't bend the knees enough to swing level with every low ball (even if you wanted to).

Leaves two choices to get the racquet head low enough to hit the ball.

1) bend the snake more downward (remember .... don't likely this because the snake loses it's bite)
2) bend the entire Jolly snake housing forward (I guess if it has knees it could have a waste :oops:).

#2 sounds like win win ... maintain that snake swing plane with top of gear plane ... AND get to hit the ball.

Moral of the story ... bend at the waist or you will have an impotent snake. (this it the type of tennis lesson a male rec tennis player will remember)

OK ... one last thing (sure) to muddy the snake infested waters. Compare the 1hbh power you can create hitting a ball level with your shoulders vs one that is waist height. Yeah ... the high one is weak tea compared to the lower one. Obviously (at least to me) there is more to this than just the proper swing plane. The downward swing (even if in plane with shoulders) creates more pace than a horizontal one. I guess since that arm+racquet lever weight 10ish lbs ... this make some since. Uh oh ... or does it? I just said above we swing from the slot, not from the top of the backswing. From the slot ... it's all uphill. Cr@p ... more to this.

Verile snake:



Snake needs viagra:

 
#38
Does look a bit like your driving a low slice/ flat shot, the first pic has really open face pointing toward thesky
Open backswing is open for business in pretty much any stroke that goes behind my back 8-B

Below in order (1hbh, bh volley, 1hbh slice, 2hbh, 1hbh drop shot)



And just for good measures ... throw in a little sunny side up on the FH.



I gotta be me. :cool:
 
#39
Not sure if this applies,
Coiling the torso forward (bending at waste) lowers forward shoulder , loads and stretches back muscles. It is like the anti-cartwheel of the serve
Yes ... cartwheel ... I couldn't think of the term in the 1st post. This is what I meant when I briefly mentioned the position of the arm in the serve in the first post. The arm is powerful out to the side ... not so much raised above the shoulder line (or below I am speculating). It's why we tilt shoulder line to serve, why baseball pitchers do the the same.

We obviously can't get all the way to arm horizontal with low FHs and BHs ... but seems getting close might be max power potential.
 
#40
Thought of something else ... if goal on 1hbh was to reduce the angle of the arm down during a stroke, then spacing has to also be a consideration.

I thought of this watching @StringSnapper video.



That could be perfect spacing ... or not ... but using it as an example. By definition, on a given shot ... if we add more lateral spacing ... don't we end up with a more horizontal arm? If Snapper sets his feet slightly to the left on this shot ... he reaches a bit more and arm is angled less down. Also ... probably a trade off between 1) max efficient power hand off from rotation (which is what this thread was about) and 2) how much low to high. How else does one get max low to without a lot of arm angle down?

If you watch Snapper hit the stroke above at 12:23 ... why would he change that anyway. Pretty stroke.

Man ... I should delete this thread, we are never going to get another ball over the net with our 1hbhs. We could be good tennis players if we just watched more Netflix series rather than talk tennis here. (y)
 
#41
All this bh talk set me up for success today, best bh day in forever, however my new fh was crap I've been relying on it for months and the one day I have success on bh , fh is nowhere to be seen.
 
#42
All this bh talk set me up for success today, best bh day in forever, however my new fh was crap I've been relying on it for months and the one day I have success on bh , fh is nowhere to be seen.
You are not paying attention grasshopper ... bh, fh, one hand, two hands ... be one with the solid snake.

1hbh or 2hbh?
 
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#43
Thought of something else ... if goal on 1hbh was to reduce the angle of the arm down during a stroke, then spacing has to also be a consideration.

I thought of this watching @StringSnapper video.



That could be perfect spacing ... or not ... but using it as an example. By definition, on a given shot ... if we add more lateral spacing ... don't we end up with a more horizontal arm? If Snapper sets his feet slightly to the left on this shot ... he reaches a bit more and arm is angled less down. Also ... probably a trade off between 1) max efficient power hand off from rotation (which is what this thread was about) and 2) how much low to high. How else does one get max low to without a lot of arm angle down?

If you watch Snapper hit the stroke above at 12:23 ... why would he change that anyway. Pretty stroke.

Man ... I should delete this thread, we are never going to get another ball over the net with our 1hbhs. We could be good tennis players if we just watched more Netflix series rather than talk tennis here. (y)
I had a look at this shot on video, looks like from this position I just rotated my shoulders lol

I think the key for a crosscourt bh is this: get set in that position I'm in, then rotate until your front shoulder faces the direction you want to hit (I.e. left baseline corner for that shot)

Mmmm the power on a crosscourt backhand is delicious
 
#44
I had a look at this shot on video, looks like from this position I just rotated my shoulders lol

I think the key for a crosscourt bh is this: get set in that position I'm in, then rotate until your front shoulder faces the direction you want to hit (I.e. left baseline corner for that shot)

Mmmm the power on a crosscourt backhand is delicious
This made me check out your stroke again at 12:23. Oh yeah ... forget all of this thread, IMO the following is the best thing you could do for your 1hbh (me too ... I rotate through my contact on tmy 40 year 1hbh ... but ironically get it right on the 3 year 2hbh ... go figure).

Check out the three Fed pics in the OP, and frame advance through the first couple of BHs in his video:

Compare to your 1hbh at 12:23 to Fed

Backswing position:

Fed: did not know backs could rotate that much, and head over neck ... don't look at this. :eek:
Snapper: good ... back toward opponent

At Contact (I think this is the big one ... more important by far then this crazy thread)

Fed: step through frames on several Fed FHs in OP video ... his shoulders rotate to right net post ... then hit end of range BEFORE contact ... right at the last it's the arm being delivered from finished torso/shoulder rotation

Snapper: your shoulder line is pointing at opponent at contact, and you are rotating shoulders all the way through contact.

This has to be the biggest thing you (and me) could do first for easy increase in pace.

FYI ... your friend in the video looks pretty good with his 1hbh technique to me. Check out his return at 10:16, and stroke at 10:28 (not the ball flight ;)). To me he gets the shoulder line set right before contact ... and doesn't rotate through contact.
 
#45
This made me check out your stroke again at 12:23. Oh yeah ... forget all of this thread, IMO the following is the best thing you could do for your 1hbh (me too ... I rotate through my contact on tmy 40 year 1hbh ... but ironically get it right on the 3 year 2hbh ... go figure).

Check out the three Fed pics in the OP, and frame advance through the first couple of BHs in his video:

Compare to your 1hbh at 12:23 to Fed

Backswing position:

Fed: did not know backs could rotate that much, and head over neck ... don't look at this. :eek:
Snapper: good ... back toward opponent

At Contact (I think this is the big one ... more important by far then this crazy thread)

Fed: step through frames on several Fed FHs in OP video ... his shoulders rotate to right net post ... then hit end of range BEFORE contact ... right at the last it's the arm being delivered from finished torso/shoulder rotation

Snapper: your shoulder line is pointing at opponent at contact, and you are rotating shoulders all the way through contact.

This has to be the biggest thing you (and me) could do first for easy increase in pace.

FYI ... your friend in the video looks pretty good with his 1hbh technique to me. Check out his return at 10:16, and stroke at 10:28 (not the ball flight ;)). To me he gets the shoulder line set right before contact ... and doesn't rotate through contact.
Hard to follow your video analysis. Can you give time of the Fed video or post frame pictures? I'm not following your points.

Federer has a high level backhand. It uses a different technique than Gasquet, Justine Henin and Wawrinka and several others. I prefer the Gasquet, Justine Henin and Wawrinka technique. They use a two phase forward acceleration where the first phase is that the uppermost body turn causes the upper arm to turn in the forward direction. The uppermost body and upper arm can be seen to turn in sync and I believe that the chest is pressed to the upper arm during acceleration and forces there are important. Later, the shoulder muscles may then move the upper arm off the chest.
 
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IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#46
I prefer the Gasquet, Justine Henin and Wawrinka technique.
Chas - when you say prefer, are you saying that for your personal BH you prefer this technique? Or are you saying that you think it is technically superior from a biomechanical perspective?

I think one advantage of Fed's technique might be more precision, as he says more sideways through the shot and doesn't over-rotate as much as Gasquet/Wawrinka. This may allow him to hit targets more accurately? (He can really paint the lines with that 1HBH, especially when he was playing a smaller frame!)



 
#47
Chas - when you say prefer, are you saying that for your personal BH you prefer this technique? Or are you saying that you think it is technically superior from a biomechanical perspective?

I think one advantage of Fed's technique might be more precision, as he says more sideways through the shot and doesn't over-rotate as much as Gasquet/Wawrinka. This may allow him to hit targets more accurately? (He can really paint the lines with that 1HBH, especially when he was playing a smaller frame!)



A common trait with pro baseline strokes is "they don't rotate through contact". The shoulder rotation hits end of range, pauses, however you want to describe it, and this leaves the arm continuing forward. Obviously I have come to the conclusion this is a key common element of pro strokes ... I repeat it here non-stop. 8-B

I have found reviewing pro baseline strokes (I prefer the video camera angle from behind for this), you can be fooled if you just look at the final follow through position like your Wawrinka pic above. What often happens is an efficient relay from shoulder rotation to arm (from rotation pause ... or near pause ... doesn't have to be complete stop), and then a final shoulder rotation will start up again from stroke momentum (I think inconsequential).

That said ... Wawrinka does seem to rotate through 1hbh contact often ... but not always. The video I have watched of Gasquet shows him consistently not rotating through contact. He is actually my favorite watching on this element of the swing.

Not sure if I have seen less rotation by Fed at contact on 1hbh ... which would be where it would mattere for "more accurate". What I like most about the Fed 1hbh as a model for a rec player is the relaxed bent hiiting arm unit turn, and not fully extended until around front leg on forward swing. I find that a very relaxed coil/uncoil compared to an immediate straight arm takeback (Edberg, Thiem). Wawrinka actually goes back initially with a relaxed bent arm, but he gets hitting arm fully extended in forward swing earlier than Fed ... Fed around front leg, Wawrinka around back leg.

Here is an example of Wawrinka finishing rotation and stroke ... brief rotation pause ... and then he rotates some more after.

Two 1hbhs @02:50 ... looks like final extra rotation is mainly rotation around right hip. I never really thought about that ... both hip and shoulder rotation paused at contact.

 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#48
A common trait with pro baseline strokes is "they don't rotate through contact". The shoulder rotation hits end of range, pauses, however you want to describe it, and this leaves the arm continuing forward. Obviously I have come to the conclusion this is a key common element of pro strokes ... I repeat it here non-stop. 8-B

I have found reviewing pro baseline strokes (I prefer the video camera angle from behind for this), you can be fooled if you just look at the final follow through position like your Wawrinka pic above. What often happens is an efficient relay from shoulder rotation to arm (from rotation pause ... or near pause ... doesn't have to be complete stop), and then a final shoulder rotation will start up again from stroke momentum (I think inconsequential).

That said ... Wawrinka does seem to rotate through 1hbh contact often ... but not always. The video I have watched of Gasquet shows him consistently not rotating through contact. He is actually my favorite watching on this element of the swing.

Not sure if I have seen less rotation by Fed at contact on 1hbh ... which would be where it would mattere for "more accurate". What I like most about the Fed 1hbh as a model for a rec player is the relaxed bent hiiting arm unit turn, and not fully extended until around front leg on forward swing. I find that a very relaxed coil/uncoil compared to an immediate straight arm takeback (Edberg, Thiem). Wawrinka actually goes back initially with a relaxed bent arm, but he gets hitting arm fully extended in forward swing earlier than Fed ... Fed around front leg, Wawrinka around back leg.

Here is an example of Wawrinka finishing rotation and stroke ... brief rotation pause ... and then he rotates some more after.

Two 1hbhs @02:50 ... looks like final extra rotation is mainly rotation around right hip. I never really thought about that ... both hip and shoulder rotation paused at contact.

Usually you can see Fed's off-hand way behind him in his follow-through, especially if hitting DTL. This keeps his shoulders nearly perpendicular to the baseline and restricts him from over-rotating.

I rarely/never see this with Wawrinka, his off-hand is usually at his side, and his shoulders end up nearly horizontal with the baseline.

I'm not a bio-mechanics expert, but I think this is a key difference between their strokes/swingpath...







 
#49
@IowaGuy ... who cares what we are talking about .... I would rather just look at those GOAT pics. :cool: Wow.

"I rarely/never see this with Wawrinka, his off-hand is usually at his side, and his shoulders end up nearly horizontal with the baseline. "

My only observation would be what I said before ... I think what would matter is shoulder alignment at contact ... not after the fact. That is under the assumption of the paused rotation at contact I was talking about. If you (Wawrinka) is actually still rotating at contact ... than all bets are off, I have no idea how you would measure "accuracy potential". :eek:

Edit: btw ... doesn't it make logical sense that a pro's shoulder line direction would vary at contact depending on direction intended ... dtl, cc, etc.
 
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