What's wrong with my forehand
- Thread starter feddaddy
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feddaddy
New User
I am mishitting the ball too much. I think it has to do with my backswing
Pete Player
Hall of Fame
Overall quite nice.
This is what I see being a bit off.
1) You pause at the pet-dog position and break the rythm,
2) the forward motion become therefore a bit too armsy
3) looks as if you drop the racket too deep down on high balls.
——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
This is what I see being a bit off.
1) You pause at the pet-dog position and break the rythm,
2) the forward motion become therefore a bit too armsy
3) looks as if you drop the racket too deep down on high balls.
——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
feddaddy
New User
NuBas
Legend
IMO you are throwing your racquet too much, you should slow down your swing. Your racquet face is all over the place, practice a more smooth swing path. Racquet face needs to move from low to high in a smoother fashion which can be achieved by slowing down swing or consciously being aware of your racquet face maintaining same angle all throughout your swing.
Other suggestion is either to try to keep your gaze on the ball more or aim to where you want the ball to go on opposite side of court.
Ignore Wise One, he is not so wise on this one.
SinjinCooper
Hall of Fame
Bent arm, straight arm...Eastern, Western...open, neutral...
No matter what kind of forehand you want to hit (assuming you want to hit well), they all have fundamentals in common. Since you're hitting a fairly extreme grip with a straight arm, Nadal is an obvious candidate for comparison. I'm going to show you a series of pairs of photos that illustrate one of those fundamentals, and how your stroke differs from the fundamental form.
Here is Nadal, hitting two forehands. The fundamental I'd like you to notice is how he reaches a point where he's fully directing his power vector INTO the court, toward a target across the net. You can see this point because it's the moment EXACTLY when his loose hitting wrist has released and come around, and the racquet has whipped through the ball and is thus pointing roughly in the direction he's chosen to aim his power -- in line with his arm. The whole hitting structure MUST point in the direction you've directed your power, if you're hitting with a loose arm and wrist: that's just simple physics. Then, because AFTER that point the arm begins to decelerate, the hitting arm slows down BEFORE the racquet does, and the racquet begins to race ahead of the wrist, creating that break in the wrist that signals the relaxed follow through has begun. This happens IMMEDIATELY AFTER the moment of full extension, and lets you know you've got your timing down.
You can clearly see the hallmarks of a well directed forehand I outlined above happening in each photo. On a well-hit neutral rally forehand, all these things happen out in front (because that's where your target invariably is). And what I'd like to stress is that you'd see something similar in ANY solid rally forehand he hit, and in any solid rally forehand ANY high level player hit, irrespective of grip, stance, footwork, or swing. Forehand to forehand, they differ only in very minor ways, unless the situation forces the player to change radically. This is the ideal.
Here you are hitting unforced, typical rally forehands. I've picked the points where your wrist first begins to release (which is thus the direction you are directing your power), and the moment when your wrist fully breaks and releases, which tells you when in time you've gotten up to hitting speed.
Again, I've done a couple pairs, so you can see your form is consistent, and this IS your standard operating procedure.
Your racquet gets up to speed and begins to release only well after you've come past the point of contact, and you are directing all your power not into your opponent's court, but into the side fence. Your wrist does not fully release until the racquet is well behind your back, meaning you do not achieve full racquet head speed until your swing is 180 degrees of arc too late in the swing.
This not only affects your power and spin generation, but it also means that your wrist isn't in position to release into the ball squarely (the way an extreme-grip straight arm forehand is meant to) until well after you've already made contact with the ball. It's almost as if someone has instructed you to pull across the ball and direct your follow through forcefully at the back fence. (*cough* MTM *cough)
Anyway, the way to fix this is to stop thinking about pulling across the ball (this is an unfortunate myth -- good players do not hit this way), and stop thinking of swinging forcefully all the way to the back fence. (This encourages using the wrong muscles -- and using them too late -- to hit the ball with the kind of pro-style grip and swing you're using.)
Keep the arm loose and extend through the ball and into the court, letting the arm release toward your target. Then let the follow through happen organically. This'll set your swingpath right and give you a better forehand in terms of power and spin, to boot.
No matter what kind of forehand you want to hit (assuming you want to hit well), they all have fundamentals in common. Since you're hitting a fairly extreme grip with a straight arm, Nadal is an obvious candidate for comparison. I'm going to show you a series of pairs of photos that illustrate one of those fundamentals, and how your stroke differs from the fundamental form.
Here is Nadal, hitting two forehands. The fundamental I'd like you to notice is how he reaches a point where he's fully directing his power vector INTO the court, toward a target across the net. You can see this point because it's the moment EXACTLY when his loose hitting wrist has released and come around, and the racquet has whipped through the ball and is thus pointing roughly in the direction he's chosen to aim his power -- in line with his arm. The whole hitting structure MUST point in the direction you've directed your power, if you're hitting with a loose arm and wrist: that's just simple physics. Then, because AFTER that point the arm begins to decelerate, the hitting arm slows down BEFORE the racquet does, and the racquet begins to race ahead of the wrist, creating that break in the wrist that signals the relaxed follow through has begun. This happens IMMEDIATELY AFTER the moment of full extension, and lets you know you've got your timing down.
You can clearly see the hallmarks of a well directed forehand I outlined above happening in each photo. On a well-hit neutral rally forehand, all these things happen out in front (because that's where your target invariably is). And what I'd like to stress is that you'd see something similar in ANY solid rally forehand he hit, and in any solid rally forehand ANY high level player hit, irrespective of grip, stance, footwork, or swing. Forehand to forehand, they differ only in very minor ways, unless the situation forces the player to change radically. This is the ideal.
Here you are hitting unforced, typical rally forehands. I've picked the points where your wrist first begins to release (which is thus the direction you are directing your power), and the moment when your wrist fully breaks and releases, which tells you when in time you've gotten up to hitting speed.
Again, I've done a couple pairs, so you can see your form is consistent, and this IS your standard operating procedure.
Your racquet gets up to speed and begins to release only well after you've come past the point of contact, and you are directing all your power not into your opponent's court, but into the side fence. Your wrist does not fully release until the racquet is well behind your back, meaning you do not achieve full racquet head speed until your swing is 180 degrees of arc too late in the swing.
This not only affects your power and spin generation, but it also means that your wrist isn't in position to release into the ball squarely (the way an extreme-grip straight arm forehand is meant to) until well after you've already made contact with the ball. It's almost as if someone has instructed you to pull across the ball and direct your follow through forcefully at the back fence. (*cough* MTM *cough)
Anyway, the way to fix this is to stop thinking about pulling across the ball (this is an unfortunate myth -- good players do not hit this way), and stop thinking of swinging forcefully all the way to the back fence. (This encourages using the wrong muscles -- and using them too late -- to hit the ball with the kind of pro-style grip and swing you're using.)
Keep the arm loose and extend through the ball and into the court, letting the arm release toward your target. Then let the follow through happen organically. This'll set your swingpath right and give you a better forehand in terms of power and spin, to boot.
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SinjinCooper
Hall of Fame
And agreed: ignore wise one. He's a troll.
Wise one
Hall of Fame
tlm
G.O.A.T.
Is it possible for you to move forward from the dinosaur ages? You call yourself the wise one and you have no idea of what your talking about, but you are good at giving outdated bad advise.
feddaddy
New User
Thank you so much for the feedback. I’m actually using an eastern grip. I’ll try this stuff tomorrow.Bent arm, straight arm...Eastern, Western...open, neutral...
No matter what kind of forehand you want to hit (assuming you want to hit well), they all have fundamentals in common. Since you're hitting a fairly extreme grip with a straight arm, Nadal is an obvious candidate for comparison. I'm going to show you a series of pairs of photos that illustrate one of those fundamentals, and how your stroke differs from the fundamental form.
Here is Nadal, hitting two forehands. The fundamental I'd like you to notice is how he reaches a point where he's fully directing his power vector INTO the court, toward a target across the net. You can see this point because it's the moment EXACTLY when his loose hitting wrist has released and come around, and the racquet has whipped through the ball and is thus pointing roughly in the direction he's chosen to aim his power -- in line with his arm. The whole hitting structure MUST point in the direction you've directed your power, if you're hitting with a loose arm and wrist: that's just simple physics. Then, because AFTER that point the arm begins to decelerate, the hitting arm slows down BEFORE the racquet does, and the racquet begins to race ahead of the wrist, creating that break in the wrist that signals the relaxed follow through has begun. This happens IMMEDIATELY AFTER the moment of full extension, and lets you know you've got your timing down.
You can clearly see the hallmarks of a well directed forehand I outlined above happening in each photo. On a well-hit neutral rally forehand, all these things happen out in front (because that's where your target invariably is). And what I'd like to stress is that you'd see something similar in ANY solid rally forehand he hit, and in any solid rally forehand ANY high level player hit, irrespective of grip, stance, footwork, or swing. Forehand to forehand, they differ only in very minor ways, unless the situation forces the player to change radically. This is the ideal.
Here you are hitting unforced, typical rally forehands. I've picked the points where your wrist first begins to release (which is thus the direction you are directing your power), and the moment when your wrist fully breaks and releases, which tells you when in time you've gotten up to hitting speed.
Again, I've done a couple pairs, so you can see your form is consistent, and this IS your standard operating procedure.
Your racquet gets up to speed and begins to release only well after you've come past the point of contact, and you are directing all your power not into your opponent's court, but into the side fence. Your wrist does not fully release until the racquet is well behind your back, meaning you do not achieve full racquet head speed until your swing is 180 degrees of arc too late in the swing.
This not only affects your power and spin generation, but it also means that your wrist isn't in position to release into the ball squarely (the way an extreme-grip straight arm forehand is meant to) until well after you've already made contact with the ball. It's almost as if someone has instructed you to pull across the ball and direct your follow through forcefully at the back fence. (*cough* MTM *cough)
Anyway, the way to fix this is to stop thinking about pulling across the ball (this is an unfortunate myth -- good players do not hit this way), and stop thinking of swinging forcefully all the way to the back fence. (This encourages using the wrong muscles -- and using them too late -- to hit the ball with the kind of pro-style grip and swing you're using.)
Keep the arm loose and extend through the ball and into the court, letting the arm release toward your target. Then let the follow through happen organically. This'll set your swingpath right and give you a better forehand in terms of power and spin, to boot.
feddaddy
New User
In this video I actually didn’t mishit any balls haha.
tlm
G.O.A.T.
Then why doesn’t a pro player bring the old school flat garbage swing into matches and beat these modern guys with their topspin games then?
Wise one
Hall of Fame
Because they don't know how: the game has degenerated, and the teaching pros are criminally incompetent. They know nothing of physics or physiology.
Have you not watched McEnroe beat these guys at the age of 57? He creamed Michael Chang just the other night!
It is very hard to meet the ball swinging in an arc horizontally, whereas the 'pendular' swing (as shown in the videos) lends itself to consistent contact.
Don't blame me for the degenerate state of tennis, and ask why I don't agree with it. It should be obvious.
5263
G.O.A.T.
Before you go change too much, read the post above again and consider this...Imo the main issue to fix first is dealing with your early agressive acceleration. I see you as a near perfect example of a guy throwing off a nice swing by trying to snatch too hard straight out of the slot. This is even more confirmed for me by your comments about mishitting too often.
Try to get the racket tracking out towards the ball a bit with a more manageable, gradual acceleration, then once the line up to contact is assured, let her rip with the racket already well on the move and on track for a great contact.
NuBas
Legend
LOL so you just pranked us all.
I think it would help if you reveal what you focus on when hitting your forehand and if you are trying to emulate anyone, more information can help us understand better.
I like some old school tennis myself, but are you really using a powershares match to prove your point?
Wise one
Hall of Fame
I like some old school tennis myself, but are you really using a powershares match to prove your point?
Why not? The OP is not a pro. McEnroe is playing guys just a few years off the tour, and he is much older, yet he wins most of the time when I have watched him. What better example could one have?
5263
G.O.A.T.
Almost anyone would be a better model. Yes, McEnroe was and is a special talent, but not one that many can emulate well. When working with his jrs in his academy, he stays away from working their groundstrokes as even he realizes he isn't a great model in those areas.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
The bolded one is the only part I understand in this post. Can someone tell me in a few words what else i missed?
D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
I will tell you the answer from my experience. You may or may not like it.
I run into players with FH like yours at tournaments. They are by far my favorite opponents to play.
Because their FH will always break down after 3, 4, 6 shots, even worse on important, pressure points.
You are using a racket face down, Federer like FH which means your backswing is taking your racket face to about waist level.
Your contact point, however, is usually around chest to shoulder level.
From your video it looks like you are under 6' like me.
It is extremely difficult for someone who doesn't have the skills or the time to train like an elite player such as D1, ranked juniors, pros, to hit those FH's repeatedly under match condition.
I don't know your tennis goal. It could be to just get some exercise and have fun emulating your favorite pros.
But if you play matches or tournaments, and you want to maximize your winning %, then you have to let go of Federer FH.
You look like you are pretty athletic and coordinated, but it takes serious, serious commitment and talent to successfully hit Federer FH in tournaments.
During practice rallies I can look impressive hitting Federer FH, but it will break down under tournament pressure.
If you are serious about reducing your errors and maximizing your winning %, do yourself a favor and copy this guy's FH. (His BH is not too shabby either.)
This is the FH I see from guys who win 4.0 - 5.0 tournaments. They have a racket takeback that is always above the incoming ball.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
If Federer fh works during practice i dont understand why it should break down in match play. Maybe it is not working in practice either.
D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
It's not that it is working during practice. When rallying people do not count the spectacular looking shots that go out by 1" or the shank that hits the fence.
In match play, EVERYTHING counts and all of a sudden you are down 0-30.
Pete Player
Hall of Fame
Hence, you can do the same with unit turn continetal grip forehand with ease. And get no blaming for trying to learn something that’s better and get the prefix ”pusher” to your resume. And suck by definition.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
Oh, you mean like Agassi? Gotcha.
Pete Player
Hall of Fame
Oh, you mean like Agassi? Gotcha.
Tripping yourself, I see.
There is quite much happening other than unit turn in Agassi’s stroke as you implied in your former post, but if you find that the model unit turn forehand. That is fine too. There we disagree though.
Release patterns and follow thru differs some, but to my understanding hitting a continental grip with poor timing will strain your elbow lot more, than any of the stronger grips. And there are other benefits too compared to the star models of yesterday.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
Agassi does not hit with a continental FH, and nowhere did I state or imply that OP should be hitting with a conti FH.
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I agree with points 1) and 3) from Pete in the post above might be causing problems - you drop the racket low during the take back even for high balls (eg @18 seconds, which I think is a little bit of a mishit) and pause there as well. Try slowing down the swing and making your hand more of a smooth, continuous loop and then build it back up.
SinjinCooper
Hall of Fame
As a point of clarity, no, releases do not differ. There's a reason I stated in the op that this stuff was all true irrespective of grip, stance, etc.
What CAN differ is the hitting structure of the arm, which can lead people to faulty conclusions. Here's Andre, since he's come under discussion.
Body has been driven around via full-body kinetics to point where torso is roughly square to direction of power, arm is in slightly bent hitting structure, arm and wrist have yet to release...
...racquet has come through contact, hitting structure is maintained (arm does NOT fully extend at elbow with bent arm hitting structure, rather ENTIRE structure points toward target), but wrist has released and BOTH bent arm and released wrist (and thus racquet) now point extended toward opponent's court...
...and afterward, arm decelerates, wrist breaks, and follow through finishes, relaxed (here, over shoulder).
The presence of a bent arm does not mean the timing has changed in any meaningful way, nor does it signify a change in the direction in which the body is being used to direct power. The only change is in the static hitting structure which the body is throwing forward. (I.e., the arm.)
More extreme, Kyrgios. Square to power vector at contact, very extreme grip, very bent-elbow hitting structure...
...release in direction of power, wrist released, racquet and hitting structure pointing into opponent's court (NOT at side fence, despite radical changes from Fed/Nadal in terms of arm angles and grip)...
...arm decelerates, racquet pulls wrist past arm, follow through relaxes toward wrap-around (is NOT "forced" toward back fence)...
ALL serves, and ALL forehand drives for which the player has time to set up, are fundamentally throws. Athletic movements where full-body kinetics are used to whip a passive arm and hand in the direction of a target. When you DON'T keep a passive arm, and/or DON'T generate your power in the direction of your target, and/or DON'T time your movement to maximize speed at that moment, the chain doesn't work properly. And when the chain doesn't work properly, setting up the rest of the stroke in the way you see pros and high level players doing it is no longer sensible, and leads to problems in contact, consistency, power production, etc.
The way these guys hold the racquet, swing, all of it, is predicated upon the assumption that you are executing these strokes like textbook passive-arm, active-body throws toward your target. Any breakdown in that chain causes problems with the stroke. The consistent contact issue mentioned in the OP is one such problem. Such problems are hallmarks of the Modern Tennis Method, which is built upon grotesque misunderstanding of how athletes' bodies work.
And yes, these same fundaments hold (held) true for Sampras and Lendl and their bent-arm power easterns, and for Mac and Laver and their continentals. The degrees of arm bend, wrist flexion, etc., change. The fundamentals do not.
What CAN differ is the hitting structure of the arm, which can lead people to faulty conclusions. Here's Andre, since he's come under discussion.
Body has been driven around via full-body kinetics to point where torso is roughly square to direction of power, arm is in slightly bent hitting structure, arm and wrist have yet to release...
...racquet has come through contact, hitting structure is maintained (arm does NOT fully extend at elbow with bent arm hitting structure, rather ENTIRE structure points toward target), but wrist has released and BOTH bent arm and released wrist (and thus racquet) now point extended toward opponent's court...
...and afterward, arm decelerates, wrist breaks, and follow through finishes, relaxed (here, over shoulder).
The presence of a bent arm does not mean the timing has changed in any meaningful way, nor does it signify a change in the direction in which the body is being used to direct power. The only change is in the static hitting structure which the body is throwing forward. (I.e., the arm.)
More extreme, Kyrgios. Square to power vector at contact, very extreme grip, very bent-elbow hitting structure...
...release in direction of power, wrist released, racquet and hitting structure pointing into opponent's court (NOT at side fence, despite radical changes from Fed/Nadal in terms of arm angles and grip)...
...arm decelerates, racquet pulls wrist past arm, follow through relaxes toward wrap-around (is NOT "forced" toward back fence)...
ALL serves, and ALL forehand drives for which the player has time to set up, are fundamentally throws. Athletic movements where full-body kinetics are used to whip a passive arm and hand in the direction of a target. When you DON'T keep a passive arm, and/or DON'T generate your power in the direction of your target, and/or DON'T time your movement to maximize speed at that moment, the chain doesn't work properly. And when the chain doesn't work properly, setting up the rest of the stroke in the way you see pros and high level players doing it is no longer sensible, and leads to problems in contact, consistency, power production, etc.
The way these guys hold the racquet, swing, all of it, is predicated upon the assumption that you are executing these strokes like textbook passive-arm, active-body throws toward your target. Any breakdown in that chain causes problems with the stroke. The consistent contact issue mentioned in the OP is one such problem. Such problems are hallmarks of the Modern Tennis Method, which is built upon grotesque misunderstanding of how athletes' bodies work.
And yes, these same fundaments hold (held) true for Sampras and Lendl and their bent-arm power easterns, and for Mac and Laver and their continentals. The degrees of arm bend, wrist flexion, etc., change. The fundamentals do not.
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5263
G.O.A.T.
I was thinking the same thing, lol, until I realized the Kei doesn't snatch from the slot like that.
sovertennis
Professional
I agree with Sinjin: direct your energy forward, not laterally. Perhaps you could think of yourself as carrying the ball across the net to the opposite baseline, instead of trying to overpower it. Also, there appears to be too much stress in your stroke, esp as you begin to swing. Keep your arm relaxed (passive, as Sinjin writes) and try not to over rotate.
Overall though, you have forehand that you can improve with only minor tweeking and practice.
Overall though, you have forehand that you can improve with only minor tweeking and practice.
watungga
Professional
- The pat the dog is preventing the takeback's accumulation of explosive kinetic energy.
- Your mindset dictates that you hit the ball very far out front, so you rotate your shoulder very early to get your grip and racquet move forward to meet the ball.
- With #2 above as your muscle memory, you are doing the racquet lag to achieve greatest impact on the ball.
- So #2 and #3 combination made you feel like there is something wrong. IMO, #2 and #3 are not compatible to each other.
- The greatest impact you can generate power in hitting the ball is the golf position. But this is tennis, so move the impact point a little to the front.
- Work on meeting the ball stated in #5. It means the lag must start behind you, and "pat the dog" is not where you wanna start your swing with.
Pete Player
Hall of Fame
Not quite sure that the first part is necessarily true, cause in golf you want the club face to trail hands at impact and got both hands on the stick. However you want to have your body behind the shot and max out the acceleration or atlast an accelerating face at and thru impact in both cases. Unless in tennis, you want to take pace off the ball.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
watungga
Professional
Im just trying to emphasized to the OP about the fundamentals of the Federer forehand based on his stroke perspective. So he could see me clearlky from his point of view.
Fxanimator1
Hall of Fame
Hitting a tennis ball 40 mph will generally lead to less errors than say, 60 or 70 mph.
Wise one
Hall of Fame
Not necessarily! It depends on how you generate the pace. If there were not so many players trying to bash the ball instead of stroke it, there would be far fewer UEs. I hit the ball with more pace and consistency (when rallying for fun or practice) than many of the players at the courts who are in the 4.0 range (certainly not all, but many), almost all of whom are younger than I am (68), and I am using small wood racquets. My racquets are much heavier than theirs (around 14 oz) and that by itself makes a difference. It's all physics!
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Wise one
Hall of Fame
Many good points here.
mightyrick
Legend
TenFanLA had it right.
OP, a huge problem is your contact point being too high. Your spacing to the ball is terrible. You're not 6'2". Your grip is conservative. Your swing path needs to be way too vertical. To do this would require pristine timing which you don't have because you aren't a pro.
Your regular rally contact point should be waist high (but still out in front)... for an Eastern forehand.
That means you need to either step back so you give the ball more space to drop (recommended) ... or you step forward and take the ball early on the rise.
Also, adjust your swing tempo and just relax. You don't need to crush the ball right now. If you want to see the rhythm of a textbook Eastern forehand, go look at Brent Abel on YouTube. That guy has strokes smoother than silk (although they have old school flavor). Smooth, easy power. No jerking. No rushing. Contact waist high and out front. A lot of space between him and the ball at all times.
OP, a huge problem is your contact point being too high. Your spacing to the ball is terrible. You're not 6'2". Your grip is conservative. Your swing path needs to be way too vertical. To do this would require pristine timing which you don't have because you aren't a pro.
Your regular rally contact point should be waist high (but still out in front)... for an Eastern forehand.
That means you need to either step back so you give the ball more space to drop (recommended) ... or you step forward and take the ball early on the rise.
Also, adjust your swing tempo and just relax. You don't need to crush the ball right now. If you want to see the rhythm of a textbook Eastern forehand, go look at Brent Abel on YouTube. That guy has strokes smoother than silk (although they have old school flavor). Smooth, easy power. No jerking. No rushing. Contact waist high and out front. A lot of space between him and the ball at all times.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Using Eastern grip, you would need to lots of pronation to get the racquet close thru contact as well as rhs at that height. Look at your racquet take back, you may not have enough pronation going in, which you may have tried to make it up with accelerating with shoulder muscles, making your hitting unstable, causing mishit. Make grip move a little toward extreme for hitting at this height, lean forward more, take a little more knee action to generate momentum to coil body/shoulder/arm more, and refrain from too much use of shoulder muscles.
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D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
???
OP's backswing is already above the ball, similar to Agassi.
That is in the middle of his backswing. At the end of his backswing, his racket face is at his waist level in table top position.
