What's your methodology?

5263

G.O.A.T.
Well the same can be said about Macci, or Bollettieri. That's not to say they are worse as a coach than they were 10 or 15 years ago. Most likely they haven't been lucky or blessed to get to work with another Sampras or Sharapova or similar. Luck of the draw I guess.
I have a different take. I think they have had far more opportunity with more players than ever, and yes, are worse as compared to their competition.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Sharapova is still at the top of the game, you may want to think before you post. :)
Well lets see what you are thinking with your post. Did RL develop Sharapova? What about her tennis do you credit RL with or is it just the general idea that since he has worked with just about anyone who showed promise at one time or another? Pretty much all the points he tried to make about spin, grip and play style have all been wrong for the men's game, with some some amount of success on the less evolved WTA tour.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
"If you don't want to listen, you have to feel." Very simple, if you don't do what you're told, you get a spanking. Worked for me. I will not spank the kids, however I will give them 20, 30, or 100 at the baseline. They will listen quickly, cause they don't want to feel like puking. But to me its simple - Just do what I tell you!! One more thing.

A very important part of becoming a champion is timing. If your timing is off it will always be off and has to do with your eyes. Timing is crucial. The last thing is: The desire of the kid - Winning is everything and the love to compete. To play without FEAR. Know that your shots will work, because you have done it a thousand times while I put the pressure on you constantly. Like I said, play without fear. Failing does not enter your mind. Never!
Is this you speaking or Lansdorp?!?!?
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
A game based approach?
It is "game based" in the sense that tactical intention dictates technical content and that I try to keep the practice as close to the competition environment as possible, so yes it could be said to be game based, or an evolution thereof.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
It seems rather than directly teaching proper technique or the finer points of technique (barring critical failure) you believe the student will figure things out on their own through a series of guided constraints such as having a student hitting in front of the baseline if they are swinging late. To take a child, or even an adult, through these constraints seems a hit or miss process that takes time.

I could have your method wrong though, perhaps you can shoot some video of you working with a young student through these constraints and post it. I would like to see it in action. Is repetition part of your teaching style?

If you watch Macci teach children he offers a lot of direct, concise and specific feedback. At a young age I believe this is best. I even personally prefer it at my elder age. :) I also rely heavily on the music training I received here & there and apply those experiences to my approach.


That's an interesting perspective, would you mind expanding on how you feel too much time would be wasted?

Thanks
 
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tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
heninfan99, I will give you an insight on how to properly develop players. Please watch this video starting from 4:41, I already set it up to start video from that time and listen to Nick Bollettieri talk about different personalities and different types of approaches to coaching.
http://youtu.be/cbS0ycWJJEw?t=4m41s
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
LOL. Didn't you start this thread asking about methods? But now you suddenly have all the answers. Interesting. You should probably title your thread "Here's my method". :)

Perhaps dishonest thread titles are part of a trollery method?

I was merely sharing my preferences and I'm well aware of Nick's work. If you don't like Lansdorp's method tell us why?

I will give you an insight on how to properly develop players.
 
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tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
LOL. Didn't you start this thread asking about methods? But now you suddenly have all the answers. Interesting. You should probably title your thread "Here's my method". :)

Perhaps dishonest thread titles are part of a trollery method?

I was merely sharing my preferences and I'm well aware of Nick's work. If you don't like Lansdorp's method tell us why?
I didn't start to thread to ask about methods, I started this thread to discuss methods.
Please re-read what I wrote earlier regarding Lansdorp, I never mentioned I dislike his way of coaching.
 

dlam

Semi-Pro
I would make sure the kids dont get into street drugs and waste some of their talent like Aggasi and Jennifer C.did for several years.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
LOL. Didn't you start this thread asking about methods? But now you suddenly have all the answers. Interesting. You should probably title your thread "Here's my method". :)

Perhaps dishonest thread titles are part of a trollery method?

I was merely sharing my preferences and I'm well aware of Nick's work. If you don't like Lansdorp's method tell us why?
It is really your fault if you fall for these threads thinking they will be about open-minded discussions. It is easy for anyone to criticize Lansdorp, Macci, Bolls, and anyone else, if they don't have any results to show for themselves or have never played professionally.
 
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heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
Sureshs your knowledge here is about as weak has your pathetic forehand. Lansdorp has lots of results. Including Sampras. No one has criticized his actual method.

You should up your trollery game and return in a few days. And be sure to work on that forehand of yours during the break.

I dare say, Lansdorp could even help your forehand if ever-so-slightly. :)



It is easy for anyone to criticize Lansdorp, Macci, Bolls, and anyone else, if they don't have any results to show for themselves or have never played professionally.
 
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Ash_Smith

Legend
It seems rather than directly teaching proper technique or the finer points of technique (barring critical failure) you believe the student will figure things out on their own through a series of guided constraints. To take a child, or even an adult, through these constraints seems a hit or miss process that takes time.

Is repetition part of your teaching style?

If you watch Macci teach children he offers a lot of direct, concise and specific feedback. At a young age I believe this is best. I even personally prefer it at my elder age. :) I also rely heavily on the music training I received here & there and apply those experiences to my approach.
You're right, it does take time - it is precisely that investment of time and emotional and cognitive involvement from the pupil that leads to more robust skill acquisition (for robust read reliable under pressure/stress - something you often see lacking in those from a directive training background).

You're also right in that it isn't for everyone - that is part of a coaches job to figure out where to pitch things, there are some athletes with whom I lean towards a more directive style, but I will still maintain my guiding principles - I believe I also said earlier in this thread that if I were working with kids again I would probably more directive early on.

You also asked about repetition - yes, I like repetition in training, but I also encourage variability. I used to be very much into single ball, single shot reps, but as I have researched more and tried more things on court I have come to believe that by 1 shot repping you train a movement pattern, but not necessarily skill, although you can build short term success very quickly. By training reps with variability you don't necessarily get the same quick progress, but you do get deeper levels of skill acquisition and an athlete who can adapt under pressure.

Both approaches have their merits and finding the right style of training at the right time is essential - I just happen to believe that an athlete centred, constraints led, facilitated approach to training is the best way to achieve long term, robust skill acquisition.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
heninfan99, I will give you an insight on how to properly develop players. Please watch this video starting from 4:41, I already set it up to start video from that time and listen to Nick Bollettieri talk about different personalities and different types of approaches to coaching.
http://youtu.be/cbS0ycWJJEw?t=4m41s
Nice to be able to have IMG to bring in accomplished players with their personal coaches and have your name attached to them. Maybe this IS the best methodology. Not a lot different from RL or Macci really :)
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
Nice to be able to have IMG to bring in accomplished players with their personal coaches and have your name attached to them. Maybe this IS the best methodology. Not a lot different from RL or Macci really :)
I don't believe she brought in that coach, but rather he was chosen for her or already worked at IMG and was selected to train her.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
Nice to be able to have IMG to bring in accomplished players with their personal coaches and have your name attached to them. Maybe this IS the best methodology. Not a lot different from RL or Macci really :)
Interestingly Shiskina is ranked 585 in juniors and has no current senior ranking - perhaps not the prodigy everybody claimed or perhaps the IMG system didn't work for her?
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I don't believe she brought in that coach, but rather he was chosen for her or already worked at IMG and was selected to train her.
Thanks, I must have taken that incorrectly. Even so, it seems they work hard to have Nick seem relevant and involved for his name value.
 
Interestingly Shiskina is ranked 585 in juniors and has no current senior ranking - perhaps not the prodigy everybody claimed or perhaps the IMG system didn't work for her?
Earlier today, I Googled her name online and was very surprised to see her ranking. Hopefully she can turn it around, but it doesn't look good.
 

donquijote

G.O.A.T.
At younger ages, it is more important to learn the principles and building a work ethic than beating everyone.
Kids < 8 are all about game, so let them enjoy and have fun.
For older kids and learning adults, it is important to learn the culture, like always respecting your opponent etc. Then the most important is to compete with one's self, always trying to do your best and add skills on top. Another thing, I believe defense can be done on a consistent basis in all sports, so it is a must.
 
2012 was a good yr for her. Wonder what changed?
I have no idea. But it's very hard to make it to the top, and there are no sure things. A prodigy at age 10 may never make it whereas Sloane Stephens who couldn't play at all when she was 10 has made it.
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
Thanks, I must have taken that incorrectly. Even so, it seems they work hard to have Nick seem relevant and involved for his name value.
For sure, he's more a business man now than a coach. He's gotta keep that reputation up. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, we'll hear all about the success stories but nothing about the countless failures, who were good in their own right. Just the way it is.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
iMG used to have a very pronounced methodology, which involved brain type mapping, VARK "testing" and physical testing on arrival for students - I don't know whether this is still part of their procedure?
 

86golf

Semi-Pro
Juniors need exposure to the college game. The academy kids should be required to watch 6+ D1 college matches per year. The orange ball kids should go watch the better high school teams play.

They will see what it takes to win matches when your competition is equal.

Too often in juniors there are big mis-matches. You bagel your 1st round opponent, have a tight second round then you get destroyed in the semi's. So basically the parents drive them 4+ hours to get in one competitive match, is often the case.

Teach them how to deal with cheaters. If their first exposure to cheating is at a tournament, that isn't going to go over well. It's going to happen, so you may as well get a plan together sooner than later.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
Richard Williams
"he wrote up a 78-page plan, and started giving lessons to Venus and Serena when they were four and a half, and began taking them to the public tennis courts. (He now says he feels like he took them too early, and six is a better age.)"


Richard stopped sending his daughters to national junior tennis tournaments when Williams was 10, since he wanted them to take it slow and focus on school work. Another factor was racial, as he had heard white parents talk about the Williams sisters in a derogatory manner during tournaments. At that time, Williams had a 46–3 record on the United States Tennis Association junior tour and was ranked No. 1 among under-10 players in Florida. In 1995, when Serena was in the ninth grade, Richard pulled his daughters out of Macci's academy, and from then on took over all coaching at their home. When asked in 2000 whether having followed the normal path of playing regularly on the junior circuit would have been beneficial, Williams responded: "Everyone does different things. I think for Venus and I, we just attempted a different road, and it worked for us."
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
This was a good thread - back when discussion and discourse was reasonable and understanding was the order of the day...
Great, now you jinxed it and it’ll be overrun and soon deleted :laughing:
...but you’re right, I just read through the thread and it was a great discussion. Completely forgot about this one.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
^^^ I'd forgotten it too - somebody like one of my posts in it the other day and I read back through it too as I couldnt remember it either!

Fingers crossed it gets to live on...
 
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