Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by 90's Clay, Aug 22, 2012.
60s and 80s were better than 70s.:twisted:
Kings of Leon are one of my favourite bands of recent years.
I'm not too much a fan of Led Zep at all, and as for Floyd, I love some of their albums (i.e. The Wall) but think others are overrated (Dark Side Of The Moon). I know I will be in a minority here though.
Dan, Please try Schubert's Great C-Major symphony ("my" very best classic music's work!). There you will find much joy and courage for life! If you want to hear deeply felt music but rather sad music you can hear The Unfinished symphony. Also try the eight marvellous "Impromptus".
I doubt that Danzig witnessed Tilden's highlights in the early 1920s.
Oh you lived already around 1900 in Vienna? That's great, old comrade...
kiki, Unfortunately I don't know about Page.
Forza, I find his painting list very reasonanble, more than his music list.
I can see how Pink Floyd may be seen as overrated to some. My primary liking for the band is Gilmour's soulful playing (Comfortably Numb my fave solo ever) and their use of transcending sounds
probably the best guitarist ever when you look at the resume
Phoenix, I believe (but cannot prove) that McCartney wrote most of the great Beatles songs (music).
Bobby this is for you
rock and a bit of classical in one. Good ****.
Forza, I understand that delicate connotation.
Sincerely, Bob Hewitt
kiki, Which Strauss do you mean? There was Johann, the father, Johann, the son, Josef and Eduard plus Richard (beginning music of Space Odyssey) plus Oskar Straus....
Forza, Thanks a lot. I heard it with interest But you will not be surprised that I rather would stay with Schubert and Beethoven.
The greatest symphony of XX century
As well as the second
How can anyone compare Beethoven and Mozart with Jimmy Page? I am totally clueless.. Isn't he way too low compared to them? I have heard a lot of adjectives about the first two.
Just out of curiosity, what are your fave Led Zeppelin albums? Do you like the ones he did after Led Zeppelin IV? I was wondering what are you top faves..
I like Jimmy Page. I haven't heard much of Beethoven and Mozart and I am NOT qualified to speak about them..
These days I like Dream Theater a lot, wonder any takers for them
My faves, are Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple from the 70s.
Physicall graffity compares to the best
House of. ... not as good
Page changed music just like all time great compos
Loved Sabbath and Purple tough Zepp is another thing
Someday will publish my top 10 and top 20
I know and love the C Major, but you must admit that most of the song cycles are rather sad and self-pitying.
Danzig was Tilden's biggest supporter, and covered all of his matches from 1923 on for the New York Times.
Dan, "Die schöne Müllerin" (The Beautiful Miller Lady) has many joy-full songs. Just listen to them and you will probably forget about all that Hoad the best or not stuff....
Best match or greatest? Do you have the quote?
Of course Williams was stronger than Tilden 1914 to 1916. Tilden'
s prime began only in 1920!
Yes, I'm okay, BobbyOne
Tilden was of the opinion that Williams at his best was unbeatable. Vines expressed the opinion that it could be true also along with Hoad. There was a match in which Tilden was playing very well in the first two sets against Williams but apparently only won one game. Tilden eventually won the match but expressed the opinion that no one ever played a set like Williams did in the first set.
Did anybody realize that tennis and rock music golden e,pregolden and post golden era overlapse?
Why such coincidence?
Laver and Beatles
Borg and Zepp
Sampras and Guns&Roses
Djokovic and Bieber!!!!!
That doesn't make sense at all. At all!
You are not creative enough mate
If we talk old age, then it reads
Bach and Tilden: the foundation
Gonzo and Beethoven: the energy and determination
Mozart and Hoad: the joy and explosion
Rosewall and Chopin: romanticisim and delicate touch
Did Tilden ever want to change his skin colour and become...black?-
Sampras too shy, i dont see how hes GnR
I agree, but Kiki's other examples were good.
Here is my revised list.
Fed = Elvis (The King)
Laver = Beatles (revered icon of the 60s)
Rosewall = Stones (rival of the above, icon in their own right)
Borg = Led Zeppelin (dominance of the 70s, cool/mystique)
Lendl = Pink Floyd (huge influence, not as well-loved as some others)
Becker = U2 (bombastic 80s/90s superstar)
Sampras = R.E.M. (introspective 90s US star)
Nadal = Hendrix (bandana-wearing star who burnt out young)
Mac = Ozzy Osbourne (talented nutcase)
Tilden = Michael Jackson twisted
Agassi = Guns N' Roses (flamboyant US 80s/90s star)
Wilander = Bob Marley (chilled-out druggie genius)
Djokovic = Coldplay (bland modern superstar)
"Schone Mullerin" was recorded beautifully by Wunderlich, but these are broken-hearted songs, smiling through the tears.
If you want something life-affirming, try the great sacred works of Bach, Beethoven, Handel, Mozart, Haydn...there is a reason why the hundred-year period from about 1724 ( date of Bach's St.. John Passion) to 1824 (date of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony) is the golden age of music. All of the greatest summits of music were composed within that century. (I really think that late Schubert is firmly within the Romantic era.)
Don't have the quote, but it was Danzig reminiscing.
He said that Tilden played his greatest ever tennis in that match, and still lost in straight sets to Lacoste, who played his best ever match in that 1927 U.S. final.
I think I've read the article Dan. Not sure if he meant Tilden played his best match ever but I think he was praising Lacoste invulnerable defensive play. No matter, apparently Tilden played well in a losing effort.
Next I'll hear that Grieg and Mussorgsky were scrubs.
Dan, If 1724 to 1824 was the golden age of music (and you could be right), then 1825 to 1828 was the Diamond age: Beethovens enigmatic last string quartetts and many masterpieces of Schubert: Winterreise, last sonatas, C-Major symphony, Schwanengesang (Swan Song), G-Major Quartett, String Quintett, the two fabulous piano trios, last mass....
Winterreise, Schwanengesang...if you enjoy all that pain, you must like Schubert.
Not for the faint of heart.
Give me something uplifting.. Bach, Beethoven... the B Minor Mass (Bach), the Missa Solemnis (Beethoven), the two greatest works ever written.
No, I meant that, for instance, Laver and Beatles coincided in the pre golden era of their activities, Borg and LZ are examples of the Golden Era, while Sampras and Axel Rose´s band are placed in post golden era.I just found amusing that both activities overlapse their pre peaks, peaks and post peaks
Of course, late 50´s are a " silver " era with the magnificient band of Trabert,Kramer,Sedgman,Pancho,Lew and Rosewall...and you know what?? that happens to be also jazz golden era, with the MD quartet or quintet leading all the way...
While we have a very different opinion, I find your list to be funny, interesting and well thought.
Hoad and Jim Morrison, two lost youngs, and what about the flamboyant personality of Pete Townshend and John Newcombe?
And the pure folk style of CCr and Connors have something in common as well.A pitty Ashe is no Hendrix...but, wait, Nastase and Steve Marriot...
No way.Johan Griek was pretty good.
Dan, Life is not only joy and pleasure and fun. In every man's life there is also sadness, bad fate, misfortune. Every person mourns for a beloved mother or partner or child.
Schubert's music can help to lose tension and bad mood.
Unfortunately I don't know Bach's mass yet but I love Missa Solemnis.
That would be Prokofiev's 5th or Sibelius's 2nd, or maybe Shostakovich's 10th.
Your list is sweet!
I would like to add player.
Edberg = Wynton Marsalis (Elegent, classic, moving)
Yes, Sibelius 2nd or a late Mahler symphony.
Dan, I forgot to mention one great work by Schubert written in 1828: The grandious fantasia in f minor for two players. It's maybe to most moving piece of classic music (and music at all), an astounding work. It's a pity that Schubert died at 31 already. Imagine what would have happened if Bach or Beethoven would have died so early...(or Rosewall for that matter...). We would miss so much!
Have Lupu/Perahia in the Fantasia.
I have a theory that all great composers gave us what they had to give.
I once asked Philip Downs (author of the foremost study of classical music, Classical Music in the Norton series) if he felt that Mozart lived long enough to develop all of his potential in every form. He agreed with this, especially since he regarded Don Giovanni as the ideal tragic opera, Cosi fan Tutte as the ideal comic opera, and Zauberflote as the ideal "romance" or masque. Also, that Mozart perfected the symphony and piano concerto, the string quartet and quintet, etc.
One could say the same about Schubert, that he lived just long enough to perfect his achievement in his favoured forms. Had he or Mozart lived longer, what more could they have done? Probably more of the same.
There is a kind of suffering which one overcomes and this overcoming leads to joy. Examples include Bach' St. Matthew Passion, the finale of Brahms' Fourth Symphony.
There is another kind of suffering which leads to defeat and depression. Berg's depressing operas, Schubert's Winterreisse and Erlkonig are two of many examples.
I prefer the overcoming type of suffering, which is often of a vicarious nature (on behalf of someone else.)
I don't think Danzig was referring to peak level of play, if that's what you're referring to. In his report of the match for the New York Times, Danzig spoke about how it was a great performance because Tilden was no longer at the peak of his powers and was fighting a losing battle against youth. He thought that Tilden's fight, against losing odds, was to his glory.
Close to two hours, an hour and fifty-three minutes to be exact, was required for a decision in this titanic struggle between the player who formerly stood as the invincible monarch of the courts and the youth who has succeeded to his position. Many a five-set match has been finished in far less time that that, but no five-set struggle that Tilden has lost or saved with one of his dramatic climbs to unassailable heights under stress has surpassed yesterday’s harrowing battle between age and youth in the desperateness of the conflict and its appeal to the emotions, or in the magnificent quality of the play.
Stadium Is Packed
A gallery of 14,000 spectators, a gallery that packed the Forest Hills stadium to the last seat and that stood at the top of the last tier and in every other available space, looked down upon this terrific struggle, and at the end it knew that it had been privileged to see one of the most ennobling fights a former champion ever made to regain his crown.
Tilden, in the years of his most ruthless sway, was never a more majestic figure, never played more upon the heart-strings of a gallery than he did yesterday as he gave the last ounce of his superb physique to break through a defense that was as enduring as a rock, and failed; failed in spite of the fact that he was three times at set point in the first chapter, in spite of the fact that he held the commanding lead of 5-2 in the third set and was twice within a stroke of taking this chapter.
He failed because youth stood in the balance against him—youth in the person of an untiring sphinx that was as deadly as fate in the uncanny perfection of his control, who assimilated the giant Tilden’s most murderous swipes and cannon-ball serves as though they were mere pat balls and who made such incredible saves as to have broken the spirit of nine men out of ten.
But the spirit of Tilden was one thing that never broke. Long before the end of the match, yes, by the end of that agonizing first set which had the gallery cheering Tilden madly and beseeching him to put over the one vital stroke that was lacking, those marvelous legs of the Philadelphian were slowing up.
By the second set the fires of his wrathful forehanders were slumbering, and the third set found him a drooping figure, his head slunk forward, so utterly exhausted that not even the pitchers of ice water that he doused over himself could stimulate his frayed nerves, which must have ached painfully.
Gallery Is for Tilden
It was a spectacle to have won the heart of the most partisan French protagonist, the sight of this giant of the courts, once the mightiest of the mighty, flogging on his tired body in the unequal battle between youth and age. If there were any French partisans present, they did not make themselves know. One and all those 14,000 spectators were heart and soul for Tilden as he made his heroic fight to prevent the last of the world’s biggest crowns go the way of all crowns.
How they cheered Tilden! And when he went on to win the fifteenth game at 4-1, with his cannonball service, to lead at 8-7, the crowd was fairly wild with delight. Visions arose again of victory for him, at least in this set, but they speedily vanished when Lacoste won the next two games, breaking through in the seventeenth as Tilden lost all control.
Once more the American aroused the gallery to a wild pitch when he broke through for a love game with two placements, but that was the end. Dead on his feet, Tilden fought Lacoste tooth and nail in the nineteenth, which finally went to the younger player at 8-6, as he scored on three placements in a row, and then, utterly at the end of his rope, he yielded quickly in the twentieth through his errors, to bring the match to an end.
It was a match, the like of which will not be seen again soon. As an exposition of the utmost daring and brilliancy of shot-making and equally of the perfect stage to which the defense can be developed, it has had few equals in the history of tennis.
On the one side of the net stood the perfect tactician and most ruthless attacker the game probably has ever seen, master of every shot and skilled in the necromancy of spin. On the other side was the player who has reduced the defense to a mathematical science: who has done more than that, who has developed his defense to the state when it becomes an offense, subconscious in its working but none the less effective in the pressure it brings to bear as the ball is sent back deeper and deeper and into more and more remote territory.
…. The defensive player won, but in no small measure it was because youth was on his side. As perfect as was Lacoste’s defense, Tilden still might well have prevailed through the sheer magnificence of his stroking had not fatigue set in an robbed him of the strength to control his shots.
.... The day has passed when Tilden can maintain a burning pace for two full sets. He knows that as well as the next man, and so he plans his campaign to go “all out” in the first, coast in the second and come back strong in the third, relying upon the rest period to regenerate the dynamo for the fourth.
Had he won the first and relaxed in the second, it is hardly conceivable that he could have failed to make good his 5-2 lead in the third, which would have given him a 2-1 lead to work on after the intermission, with the psychological advantage on his side.
.... There are moments when Lacoste has had bad spells, when he is human, if to err is human, but those moments are rarer than an American victory over France. When he is in the hole and sets himself to the task, such moments are practically non-existent. You can drive away at him all the day long, mix chops, slices, drives and volleys in a mad mélange, run him to the corners until he is dizzy and always you get nothing for your pains but the chance to hit the ball again. It always comes back like no champion ever does.
The gallery, as partisan as it was, as whole-heartedly as it favored Tilden, could not help but be carried away by the incredible feats of Lacoste. Unmindful of the cheers for his opponent, playing a lone hand, the youthful invader concentrated upon his work and kept the ball in play—kept it in play when Tilden was sending his terrific service straight at him, kept it in play when he had to scramble to the far corners of the court for a blistering drive to his back-hand, and kept it in play when the American was loading his shots with such heavy spin that a spoon would have been needed by another other player to dig it out of the turf.
A defense so impregnable as that, a defense which confounded all of Tilden’s ingenuity as he brought all of his artifices to bear, along with his devastating speed and power, should have undermined the morale of any opponent. That Tilden stuck to his guns and fought on as he has seldom fought before, in spite of the fact that he was on his last legs, while his adversary was flitting nimbly about the court on his toes, is to the American’s glory.
In victory Tilden was never more magnificent a figure than he was yesterday in defeat, and Lacoste, in his years of triumph, was never greater than he was in the victory at Forest Hills.This whole passage is about Tilden's spirit. The starting point -- really the whole foundation -- of Danzig's view of the match is that Tilden was no longer at the peak of his physical powers.
In a later interview about this match, Danzig stated that Tilden "threw EVERYTHING THAT HE HAD into that match".
Tilden would win both Forest Hills and Wimbledon a few years later, so I doubt that he could seriously fatigue in a three-set match.
Yes that is Danzig's view of the match, and his view of what made it so great: Tilden dug deep and threw everything he had into the battle -- perfectly in line with his report for the Times, where he describes Tilden fighting to the limit despite exhaustion, despite fighting a losing battle against youth.
You keep describing it as a straight-set match without ever once mentioning that it lasted 49 games, which I'm sure you must know. That is longer than many five-set matches. And matches against Lacoste always involved interminable rallies.
Anyway one thing is certain: whether or not you believe that Tilden was exhausted, Danzig believed it -- and he stated more than a few times in his report that Tilden's physical powers were no longer what they had been; and that they deteriorated as the match went on.
TIME magazine stated that Tilden appeared "burnt out" from the unsuccessful Davis Cup campaign, which had concluded only 7 days before.
So that means that Tilden, when he lost this US final to Lacoste, was playing his 10th match in 10 days. Three Davis Cup matches (including the doubles) followed by 7 rounds at Forest Hills.
It was not just Danzig and TIME magazine that observed Tilden to be exhausted and past his physical peak. In that Davis Cup tie the Musketeers set out with the deliberate intent of tiring Tilden, engaging him in long rallies in the singles and throwing lobs over his head in the doubles (which went to five sets).
You surely know this quote from Cochet, many years later:
“How did we finally beat Tilden?” Cochet asks now. “We were younger, and ahh,” he says with a smile, “we had Tilden to learn from.”
You have not stated it directly, but is it really your view that Tilden was at his physical peak in 1927? He was 34 then. You've been arguing with us now for a long time about how a tennis player's biological peak is in the early 20s.
So you're seriously arguing that Tilden's peak lasted until he was 34?
Tilden OUTLASTED the diminutive Frenchmen. Lacoste and Cochet both faded BEFORE Tilden did, they were spent forces within a couple of years, and Tilden won both Forest Hils and Wimbledon AFTER the Frenchmen were past their prime.
Tilden was a physical marvel.
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