When a kids is ready for start tournament ?

That is a fair assessment.
TCF, I do care about your daughter as well as all the kids, If I did not I would not be posting here. We must not take things to extremes. There is a middle ground to all this.

8-9 year olds playing green tournaments for a year is not that bad.......... is it?
 
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I bet she can beat your kid :) how lame are the southern sections,:roll: always late to the party, well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, maybe because of their arrogance! this is grounds for another civil war LOL
I actually would LOVE for her to meet a 7 year old tennis girl like that and hit. I bet they would have a lot of fun.
 
TCF, I do care about your daughter as well as all the kids, If I did not I would not be posting here. We must not take things to extremes. There is a middle ground to all this.

8-9 year olds playing green tournaments for a year is not that bad.......... is it?
No I suppose it isn't. If some kids need tournaments to keep them interested in tennis, so be it.

But the other approach works too. Many a great player went years before ever playing an organized tournament.

Both approaches have their success stories.
 

ga tennis

Hall of Fame
We are not playing hardly any tournaments this year.This year will be spent on technique only.I think this is the best way for my daughter who just turned 9.
 

seminoleG

Semi-Pro
We are not playing hardly any tournaments this year.This year will be spent on technique only.I think this is the best way for my daughter who just turned 9.

After seeing what my 8yo did this weekend, I am going to re-evaluate this Tournament stuff with her coach and I'm leaning towards pulling her out. The fear of loosing "CONSUMED" her. Total Meltdown, that I believe with maturity not skill easily corrected.
 

ga tennis

Hall of Fame
After seeing what my 8yo did this weekend, I am going to re-evaluate this Tournament stuff with her coach and I'm leaning towards pulling her out. The fear of loosing "CONSUMED" her. Total Meltdown, that I believe with maturity not skill easily corrected.
Was she playing in the 12 and under division?
 
After seeing what my 8yo did this weekend, I am going to re-evaluate this Tournament stuff with her coach and I'm leaning towards pulling her out. The fear of loosing "CONSUMED" her. Total Meltdown, that I believe with maturity not skill easily corrected.
I am a firm believer in keeping them out of tournaments until they are older. What other sports do parents expect an 8 year old without a coach to stick with proper technique, while they keep score, while they try to remember strategy, while they probably face a moonballer whose parents and extended family are cheering after every point?

Tennis is unique and requires a longer incubation period before structured competition. Let them play soccer and gradually phase in the structured tennis when they are older.
 

seminoleG

Semi-Pro
I am a firm believer in keeping them out of tournaments until they are older. What other sports do parents expect an 8 year old without a coach to stick with proper technique, while they keep score, while they try to remember strategy, while they probably face a moonballer whose parents and extended family are cheering after every point?

Tennis is unique and requires a longer incubation period before structured competition. Let them play soccer and gradually phase in the structured tennis when they are older.
Funny. The Higher the MOONBALLs got the louder they cheered like a roller coaster ride.

You know Tennis, why would they not allow 2 min coaching in between sets during Junior Tennis? If the WTA needs it why not Juniors.

Has it ever come up before or you heard USTA discuss it?

Don't they allow coaching at NCAA?
 

seminoleG

Semi-Pro
Was she playing in the 12 and under division?

No 10s. She has played and beaten 12s but now that the USTA 12s start January figured leave her in 10s to have fun. No Pressure and she enjoys it. PLUS++++++ To make sure we stay in top 32 for State Sectional have to maintain this POINT SH@#!

This is like a pyramid scheme this USTA/POINT chasing system. HATE it but if you want to play the best you have to get into the show.
 

hound 109

Semi-Pro
Funny. The Higher the MOONBALLs got the louder they cheered like a roller coaster ride.

You know Tennis, why would they not allow 2 min coaching in between sets during Junior Tennis? If the WTA needs it why not Juniors.

Has it ever come up before or you heard USTA discuss it?

Don't they allow coaching at NCAA?
This thread is hilarious.

The original poster has took his ball & went home several pages ago. The rest of the thread is cracking me up.

Imagine soccer players or baseball players drilling & training from 6 y/o until they are teens w/o ever playing a game? They'll have nice technique though.

& then there's discussion of 10s rankings.....in Sections. Huh?? 10s? Why would anyone care....or waste bandwidth discussing it.

& what tournaments are folks attending where people are cheering every point?? I've only seen behavior like this in BEGINNER tennis & high school matches.

& now I read complaints about too much moon balling & not enough coaching DURING matches. Newsflash....10 & unders will moonball/dink etc. They'll grow out of it when they can keep it deep w/o moonballing. Either teach the kid how to beat the so called moon baller (it's not that complicated) or go take drills for 2 years (at $50-$75 an hour) until the moonballer's game evolves into ripping it up the lines & your kid is more comfortable being waxed by an accomplished (& match tough) baseliner & all court player (& former moonballer).

& regarding allowing "coaching" during matches.... I'd rather gag & tie up all non participants. (Myself included).

Bottom line - if a kid can't handle a "moonball" or keep it in 5 times he'll see moonballs. If a kid has a crappy backhand....he'll see a lot of shots to the backhand. If a kid is overweight, or slow with a confused first step.....he'll see droppers. Exposing weaknesses is part of tennis (& sport)....parents need to buck up & fix the problem areas....or just take their ball (& their kid) & go home.
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
Imagine soccer players or baseball players drilling & training from 6 y/o until they are teens w/o ever playing a game? They'll have nice technique though.
Do you even understand the argument about the relationship between tennis technique and the pressure to win?

I could explain why baseball is not analogous, but I am not sure you care to even understand what is being said. Hard to believe that you have read this thread and would post something as ignorant as your last post.
 
hound109, in the best soccer countries that is exactly what happens. Pro Tour posted an article on Dutch soccer where they indeed drill for years with no games. And the same is true in Brazil where they play pick up games for years before ever playing a structured game.

Russian tennis players can routinely wait until age 14-15 before playing their first tournament.

And you described the 1 in a 200 kid who magically and quickly stops moonballing and grows out of it. Most kids still have bad technique in the 14s. Then after that most of the kids aged 15-18 who are great tennis players are from other countries.

Look at the top 200 ATP and WTA.....it ain't full of American who "outgrew moonballing". Its full of players from countries that drilled and could not care less if they won at age 8.

Its all relative....by the time USTA kids outgrow things and start playing right they are way behind the international kids and rarely catch up.
 
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hound 109

Semi-Pro
Do you even understand the argument about the relationship between tennis technique and the pressure to win?

I could explain why baseball is not analogous, but I am not sure you care to even understand what is being said. Hard to believe that you have read this thread and would post something as ignorant as your last post.
Yes, i've had competitive children in tennis & baseball. (& i played competitive baseball) My argument is that competing is fun. Drilling for years is not as fun (at least it wouldn't be for my kids).

Pressure is having to sink a two free throws when your team is one point down with 2 second left on the clock. Pressure is having runners on 2nd & 3rd in the bottom of the last inning & you're at the plate with two outs & behind by one run. (note - 7 & 8 year olds experience this all every weekend in youth sports). Pressure is a second serve of a 6-6 Super Tie Break.

If there's "pressure to win" then it's the parents fault. But playing a sport without a little pressure (for most competitors) isn't as fun & kind of defeats the purpose.

So yes...smart guy....please splain to me how "ignorant" I am. You obviously found something else wrong with my post. Or was your only beef with my post was that i compared tennis & other sports?

My kid is under no pressure from me to win. If others put pressure on their kids to win then that's they're own fault. (not the USTA's & not the moonballers).
 

NouKy

New User
Whoooo
I don't even imagine that this question would go like that.
Lot of discussion through.

In case of doubt, because as i told i am very new at all of this, I want to thanks all the persons that debate on this, and let that tournament thing later when kid will be more mature

Thx
 
Yes, i've had competitive children in tennis & baseball. (& i played competitive baseball) My argument is that competing is fun. Drilling for years is not as fun (at least it wouldn't be for my kids).

Pressure is having to sink a two free throws when your team is one point down with 2 second left on the clock. Pressure is having runners on 2nd & 3rd in the bottom of the last inning & you're at the plate with two outs & behind by one run. (note - 7 & 8 year olds experience this all every weekend in youth sports). Pressure is a second serve of a 6-6 Super Tie Break.

If there's "pressure to win" then it's the parents fault. But playing a sport without a little pressure (for most competitors) isn't as fun & kind of defeats the purpose.

So yes...smart guy....please splain to me how "ignorant" I am. You obviously found something else wrong with my post. Or was your only beef with my post was that i compared tennis & other sports?

My kid is under no pressure from me to win. If others put pressure on their kids to win then that's they're own fault. (not the USTA's & not the moonballers).
You obviously did not read the thread. ClarkC and others explained how in tennis you win MORE as a kid when you use bad technique, dinking and moonballing. Balls fly out when little kids hit away.

Try bad technique in golf, you lose. Try bad technique in kids basketball, the shot is missed, you sit. Try winning with bad technique in bitty baseball, your throw is off the mark, you sit.

Tennis is UNIQUE. Not only no coaching but a little kid is better off dinking at first to win. Its the ONLY sport where a kid wins MORE with BAD technique when they are starting out. So bad technique is rewarded early in tennis, in every other sport bad technique causes loses from day 1.

And the hardest thing to do is to correct bad technique that was used to win in a tournament.

Thats why we are saying the countries that delay tournaments in TENNIS or stress winning using technique are the ones that produce better overall players.
 
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klu375

Semi-Pro
hound109, in the best soccer countries that is exactly what happens. Pro Tour posted an article on Dutch soccer where they indeed drill for years with no games. And the same is true in Brazil where they play pick up games for years before ever playing a structured game.

Russian tennis players can routinely wait until age 14-15 before playing their first tournament.
TCF, could you please provide the source for this last statement?
And while you are looking for the source we can look at the current Russian 12 and under national ranking and see that top kids born in 1999 and 2000 routinely play between 20 and 30 tournaments per year. (they count 9 for ranking)
But it is worse than that. They also have National ranking for 9-10 year olds and top kids in this age group routinely play between 10 and 25 tournaments per year.
http://www.rustennistur.ru/csp/rtt/RTTXEN.RatingTable.cls

There are a few thousands of Russian kids playing tournaments before age 12. I guess they all doomed to mediocrity. This is good for US tennis.
 
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TCF, could you please provide the source for this last statement?
And while you are looking for the source we can look at the current Russian 12 and under national ranking and see that top kids born in 1999 and 2000 routinely play between 20 and 30 tournaments per year. (they count 9 for ranking)
But it is worse than that. They also have National ranking for 9-10 year olds and top kids in this age group routinely play between 10 and 25 tournaments per year.
http://www.rustennistur.ru/csp/rtt/RTTXEN.RatingTable.cls

There are a few thousands of Russian kids playing tournaments before age 12. I guess they all doomed to mediocrity. This is good for US tennis.
This topic had its own thread but I will repost the source.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Win-Or-Di...n-the-America-Youth-Sports-Culture&id=3836632

Now here is the big difference. The author researched the Russian system and summarized it in that piece. In emails with him, my coaching buddy in PA. got even more details.

In Russia the tournaments that they do have are very demanding in technique. If a player moonballs or dinks, they are ostracized. And the best players from those tournaments are pulled and put into a special training system. They will not emerge again in tournaments until 14-15. When your motivation is to play all out with great technique and be spotted by a scout....thats great motivation for kids. You will probably not find the next Russian top 200 player in those tournaments after age 10.

The Russian attitude is to use the youth tournament system to identify talent, not to see who can dink there way to trophies. As the 4th paragraph eludes to "skill acquisition is the measure of success". The opposite of the American culture.

So lets see....if we can use the USTA U10s as a platform to pressure all kids to play full out without moonballs....then pull the best ones to put into a specialized training program....then perhaps we can duplicate the success of Russian and Serbia.
 
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dirkpitt38

New User
This topic had its own thread but I will repost the source.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Win-Or-Di...n-the-America-Youth-Sports-Culture&id=3836632

Now here is the big difference. The author researched the Russian system and summarized it in that piece. In emails with him, my coaching buddy in PA. got even more details.

In Russia the tournaments that they do have are very demanding in technique. If a player moonballs or dinks, they are ostracized. And the best players from those tournaments are pulled and put into a special training system. They will not emerge again in tournaments until 14-15. When your motivation is to play all out with great technique and be spotted by a scout....thats great motivation for kids. You will probably not find the next Russian top 200 player in those tournaments after age 10.

The Russian attitude is to use the youth tournament system to identify talent, not to see who can dink there way to trophies. As the 4th paragraph eludes to "skill acquisition is the measure of success". The opposite of the American culture.

So lets see....if we can use the USTA U10s as a platform to pressure all kids to play full out without moonballs....then pull the best ones to put into a specialized training program....then perhaps we can duplicate the success of Russian and Serbia.
Sounds like the system we adults used at CB Smith park in South Florida in the Mid 90's to get rid of the adult pushers. It worked!!!
 

klu375

Semi-Pro
This topic had its own thread but I will repost the source.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Win-Or-Di...n-the-America-Youth-Sports-Culture&id=3836632

Now here is the big difference. The author researched the Russian system and summarized it in that piece. In emails with him, my coaching buddy in PA. got even more details.

In Russia the tournaments that they do have are very demanding in technique. If a player moonballs or dinks, they are ostracized. And the best players from those tournaments are pulled and put into a special training system. They will not emerge again in tournaments until 14-15. When your motivation is to play all out with great technique and be spotted by a scout....thats great motivation for kids. You will probably not find the next Russian top 200 player in those tournaments after age 10.

The Russian attitude is to use the youth tournament system to identify talent, not to see who can dink there way to trophies. As the 4th paragraph eludes to "skill acquisition is the measure of success". The opposite of the American culture.

So lets see....if we can use the USTA U10s as a platform to pressure all kids to play full out without moonballs....then pull the best ones to put into a specialized training program....then perhaps we can duplicate the success of Russian and Serbia.
I read linked article. It does not mention Russia or tennis. It did mention former Soviet Union where tennis was extremely unpopular and practically not supported by the system because it was not an Olympic sport. This article is an opinion and cannot be considered as a credible source.
What happened in "Spartak" club where multiple future top players were training sumiltaneously as kids was an abberation. Yes the coaches stressed technique, the club had only one indoor court and you can play outdoor in Moscow only 4 months out of a year. So they mostly drilled to keep many kids engaged simultaneously. You still could see glaring technical deficiencies of their players especially those who did not go abroad like Safin. When I watched Dementieva volleying during warm-up at last year US Open I wanted to cry. And I am not even talking about the serve. Who else? Sharapova was training at IMG since 9, Zvonareva was training at JTCC in Washington since 16. Do you have a proof that the current crop of top young Russian players did not play tournaments between 10 and 14? Please post.

Talking about the Soviet sport system - if you apply it here to tennis you will have all US Open champions you want. But it is not because they stressed techniques or not played tournaments at a certain age. Just go to PE classes in elementary schools in lower income neighborhoods, conduct tests specific to tennis, select the best athletes, promise them free special magnet schools with boarding (if needed) that will include twice a day free training. And do it in every small, medium and large city accross the whole country. Those who do not work hard you first punish and then cut. The best will be channelled to the top sports schools or private academies.

And I can tell you that many of the kids that USTA is training now would not be able to pass initial athletic tests and would not be eligible for free training under the Soviet system.
 
I read linked article. It does not mention Russia or tennis. It did mention former Soviet Union where tennis was extremely unpopular and practically not supported by the system because it was not an Olympic sport. This article is an opinion and cannot be considered as a credible source.
What happened in "Spartak" club where multiple future top players were training sumiltaneously as kids was an abberation. Yes the coaches stressed technique, the club had only one indoor court and you can play outdoor in Moscow only 4 months out of a year. So they mostly drilled to keep many kids engaged simultaneously. You still could see glaring technical deficiencies of their players especially those who did not go abroad like Safin. When I watched Dementieva volleying during warm-up at last year US Open I wanted to cry. And I am not even talking about the serve. Who else? Sharapova was training at IMG since 9, Zvonareva was training at JTCC in Washington since 16. Do you have a proof that the current crop of top young Russian players did not play tournaments between 10 and 14? Please post.

Talking about the Soviet sport system - if you apply it here to tennis you will have all US Open champions you want. But it is not because they stressed techniques or not played tournaments at a certain age. Just go to PE classes in elementary schools in lower income neighborhoods, conduct tests specific to tennis, select the best athletes, promise them free special magnet schools with boarding (if needed) that will include twice a day free training. And do it in every small, medium and large city accross the whole country. Those who do not work hard you first punish and then cut. The best will be channelled to the top sports schools or private academies.

And I can tell you that many of the kids that USTA is training now would not be able to pass initial athletic tests and would not be eligible for free training under the Soviet system.
Its quite simple really, in eastern bloc countries tournaments are go full out and impressed a scout who can elevate you to a special training program. In America tournaments at that age are to win a plastic trophy in front of Grandma using any dink shot that floats the ball back over the net.

I think this has been said many times already, its not only the age kids play tournaments, its the culture and goal of those tournaments. Russian kids are not dodging opponents, going around the country chasing ranking points using whatever lame technique gets the ball back over the net.

With all those "technical deficiencies" you see, they still do better in tennis than all the American kids who play 1000 USTA tournaments starting at age 7. Why? Because the WTA player you say can't volley drilled for years on her other weapons instead of winning silly USTA tournaments like Brooke Austin did.
 
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seminoleG

Semi-Pro
TCF,
This may be naive but why hasn't any other association started a junior tennis program. Like the many AAU basketball leagues, or the many soccer organizations? I thought it was ridiculous to have to join USTA. I thought junior tennis was more ad hoc and tournaments random. Directors want $$$$, parents want to play. We have 2 Separate governing bodies for youth travel soccer, each with their own playoff/championship route.
 

klu375

Semi-Pro
Its quite simple really, in eastern bloc countries tournaments are go full out and impressed a scout who can elevate you to a special training program. In America tournaments at that age are to win a plastic trophy in front of Grandma using any dink shot that floats the ball back over the net.

I think this has been said many times already, its not only the age kids play tournaments, its the culture and goal of those tournaments. Russian kids are not dodging opponents, going around the country chasing ranking points using whatever lame technique gets the ball back over the net.

With all those "technical deficiencies" you see, they still do better in tennis than all the American kids who play 1000 USTA tournaments starting at age 7. Why? Because the WTA player you say can't volley drilled for years on her other weapons instead of winning silly USTA tournaments like Brooke Austin did.
If you are winning and highly ranked you will get free or subsidized coaching here as well. And plastic trophy is very important for a 10 year old. You will see where your daughter put her first ribbon when she gets one.:)
Regarding laid-back Russian parents, great tennis culture and everyone playing with perfect technique you will have to provide a credible source. I suspect that it should be much worse than here.

Please leave Brooke alone. Being a great competitor who never crumbles is much more important than "left hand parallel to the baseline" stuff. This you really cannot teach. You should want to put your daughter into tournaments at some point just to find out if she has "it" or not.
 
Funny. The Higher the MOONBALLs got the louder they cheered like a roller coaster ride.

You know Tennis, why would they not allow 2 min coaching in between sets during Junior Tennis? If the WTA needs it why not Juniors.

Has it ever come up before or you heard USTA discuss it?

Don't they allow coaching at NCAA?
they allow coaching in team tennis, they use all color ball (orange/green) in team tennis as well. If you kid can not handle the pressure alone then they belong in team tennis, there has to be a time when you have to let the kid go it alone. Some U10 are kid friendly where tournament director has a large staff helping the kids with score, emotions etc......
 
TCF, could you please provide the source for this last statement?
And while you are looking for the source we can look at the current Russian 12 and under national ranking and see that top kids born in 1999 and 2000 routinely play between 20 and 30 tournaments per year. (they count 9 for ranking)
But it is worse than that. They also have National ranking for 9-10 year olds and top kids in this age group routinely play between 10 and 25 tournaments per year.
http://www.rustennistur.ru/csp/rtt/RTTXEN.RatingTable.cls

There are a few thousands of Russian kids playing tournaments before age 12. I guess they all doomed to mediocrity. This is good for US tennis.
I can dig up tournaments in france where they are competing U10 nationals using green ball for years, But that is in france ( with normal parents) :confused: were are in america, with crazy parents. If I could only just find a way to post a video of bagdadis tiebreak documentary you will see crazy tennis french parents out to win at all costs. They are not different than the US parents.
 
If you are winning and highly ranked you will get free or subsidized coaching here as well. And plastic trophy is very important for a 10 year old. You will see where your daughter put her first ribbon when she gets one.:)
Regarding laid-back Russian parents, great tennis culture and everyone playing with perfect technique you will have to provide a credible source. I suspect that it should be much worse than here.

Please leave Brooke alone. Being a great competitor who never crumbles is much more important than "left hand parallel to the baseline" stuff. This you really cannot teach. You should want to put your daughter into tournaments at some point just to find out if she has "it" or not.
best post in thread
 
If you are winning and highly ranked you will get free or subsidized coaching here as well. And plastic trophy is very important for a 10 year old. You will see where your daughter put her first ribbon when she gets one.:)
Regarding laid-back Russian parents, great tennis culture and everyone playing with perfect technique you will have to provide a credible source. I suspect that it should be much worse than here.

Please leave Brooke alone. Being a great competitor who never crumbles is much more important than "left hand parallel to the baseline" stuff. This you really cannot teach. You should want to put your daughter into tournaments at some point just to find out if she has "it" or not.
You totally ignored the meat of my post....the fact that little kids tennis rewards bad technique with wins while every other sport bad technique results in loses or benching.

As I said before, Brett Klika, the author of that original piece, has performed much follow up research. My friend who coaches up in PA ., has been in email contact with him. From what he has found, the Russian system of U10s is a very aggressive proving ground where scouting is routine.....totally unlike the USTA U10s.

Now you and Pro Tour like to find exceptions to try and poke holes. I bet you could find SOME French kids and SOME Russian kids whose parents push them along the early win first path, just like here. But the facts are that their overall culture does not promote that.

You proved my point for me. The plastic trophy is super important....and the exact reason early tournament success using bad technique is the kiss of death for many, not all, but many USTA kids. The plastic trophy at age 6-9 is NOT as important to kids from other countries and more importantly their parents UNLESS they use proper technique.

I have said Brooke Austin is a wonderful girl and a great junior. But I am not alone in thinking her straight takeback and abbreviated strokes could make the difference in her being #15 in the world vs #215. Thats frank and honest evaluation of a player based on what I have personally seen. It does not make her any less of a great junior player. In my opinion, her coaches at age 8-9 should have corrected her technique. I think instead of playing 100 matches a year from age 8 she should have been made to concentrate on the technique that every top 10 men and women's pro uses. When your technique is unlike any current top player and every one of theirs is almost identical to each other as far as take back and stroke pattern....perhaps you are doing something wrong if your goal is to be a top pro.

I suggest you and Pro Tour find a way to talk to coaches around the world. Over and over again the same theme comes out. In America we celebrate 5 year olds who win a soccer match, grandma cheers, parents line the side lines. Technique be damned. In other countries that is not the case. The process is important at that age, not the results. And this effects the long development sports like tennis.

Again, both you and Pro Tour ignore again and again the fact that tennis is the ONLY sport where small kids can win if they use bad technique. And thats the crux of the entire problem.

I have coached for many years and have seen hundreds of kids. My friends have coached for many years and seen thousands of kids. We all come to the same conclusion....the kids who play early tournaments with bad technique in the majority of cases hit a brick wall when they get older. Not every single one, but the overwhelming majority of them. The kids who start of slower with tournaments and concentrate on technique, are usually higher ranked by the time they hit the 16s. There are those magic players who have great technique from their first tournament and they may be tops of the rankings at 8-10-12-14-16-18. But those are the special ones. The majority of kids would be better off with less tournies and more training.
 
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klu375

Semi-Pro
You totally ignored the meat of my post....the fact that little kids tennis rewards bad technique with wins while every other sport bad technique results in loses or benching.

As I said before, Brett Klika, the author of that original piece, has performed much follow up research. My friend who coaches up in PA ., has been in email contact with him. From what he has found, the Russian system of U10s is a very aggressive proving ground where scouting is routine.....totally unlike the USTA U10s.

Now you and Pro Tour like to find exceptions to try and poke holes. I bet you could find SOME French kids and SOME Russian kids whose parents push them along the early win first path, just like here. But the facts are that their overall culture does not promote that.

You proved my point for me. The plastic trophy is super important....and the exact reason early tournament success using bad technique is the kiss of death for many, not all, but many USTA kids. The plastic trophy at age 6-9 is NOT as important to kids from other countries and more importantly their parents UNLESS they use proper technique.

I have said Brooke Austin is a wonderful girl and a great junior. But I am not alone in thinking her straight takeback and abbreviated strokes could make the difference in her being #15 in the world vs #215. Thats frank and honest evaluation of a player based on what I have personally seen. It does not make her any less of a great junior player. In my opinion, her coaches at age 8-9 should have corrected her technique. I think instead of playing 100 matches a year from age 8 she should have been made to concentrate on the technique that every top 10 men and women's pro uses. When your technique is unlike any current top player and every one of theirs is almost identical to each other as far as take back and stroke pattern....perhaps you are doing something wrong if your goal is to be a top pro.

I suggest you and Pro Tour find a way to talk to coaches around the world. Over and over again the same theme comes out. In America we celebrate 5 year olds who win a soccer match, grandma cheers, parents line the side lines. Technique be damned. In other countries that is not the case. The process is important at that age, not the results. And this effects the long development sports like tennis.

Again, both you and Pro Tour ignore again and again the fact that tennis is the ONLY sport where small kids can win if they use bad technique. And thats the crux of the entire problem.

I have coached for many years and have seen hundreds of kids. My friends have coached for many years and seen thousands of kids. We all come to the same conclusion....the kids who play early tournaments with bad technique in the majority of cases hit a brick wall when they get older. Not every single one, but the overwhelming majority of them. The kids who start of slower with tournaments and concentrate on technique, are usually higher ranked by the time they hit the 16s. There are those magic players who have great technique from their first tournament and they may be tops of the rankings at 8-10-12-14-16-18. But those are the special ones. The majority of kids would be better off with less tournies and more training.
Where are you getting this stuff from? Are you talking about recreational sports? Any serious sport academy in the US considers teaching proper technique to young children a priority. But they also make young kids regularly play practice matches and tournaments. Majority of coaches in these academies (tennis, soccer) are foreign born and trained by the way. The poor souls that play sanctioned tournaments every weekend are probably training on their own and use tournaments as a matchplay opportunity.
Regarding Brooke. Many shorter girls play like that - crowd the baseline, swing quicker, take the ball early - she just takes it to another level. Maybe it is a new trend - people also laughed at 2HBH and WV FH at some point.
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
Yes, i've had competitive children in tennis & baseball. (& i played competitive baseball)
What are the examples in baseball of kids doing all the technique right in practice, and then figuring out that if they ignore their coach and start doing the "wrong" things in a baseball game that it will help them win, so they do the wrong thing and win and conclude that they know better than the coach? This is the phenomenon we are discussing in tennis. What are the specific examples of this in baseball?
 
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ClarkC

Hall of Fame
from minute one to minute 2
You mean the part where young Andy Murray was doing a lateral movement footwork drill, and the whole point of the drill was the movement and he was only supposed to stroke the ball back to the coach? That's what led you to criticize his strokes?

I hope you know more about tennis than you are displaying with these comments.
 

seminoleG

Semi-Pro
What are the examples in baseball of kids doing all the technique right in practice, and then figuring out that if they ignore their coach and start doing the "wrong" things in a baseball game that it will help them win, so they do the wrong thing and win and conclude that they know better than the coach? This is the phenomenon we are discussing in tennis. What are the specific examples of this in baseball?
Guessing Pitches, moving around in the batters box based on pitchers not your hitting zone.

You can create a solid hitter that makes contact by driving all pitches, or kids will learn to pull, guess, slap. These produce off balance lazy hitters that at young ages have success.


If you saw them doing that in the cage you would correct them, or they may not show you until its game time.
 
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Where are you getting this stuff from? Are you talking about recreational sports? Any serious sport academy in the US considers teaching proper technique to young children a priority. But they also make young kids regularly play practice matches and tournaments. Majority of coaches in these academies (tennis, soccer) are foreign born and trained by the way. The poor souls that play sanctioned tournaments every weekend are probably training on their own and use tournaments as a matchplay opportunity.
Regarding Brooke. Many shorter girls play like that - crowd the baseline, swing quicker, take the ball early - she just takes it to another level. Maybe it is a new trend - people also laughed at 2HBH and WV FH at some point.
I always make the mistake in thinking you want to have a real give and take. But you revert to simply disagreeing and ignoring any points being made. You ignore the most important fact, that early success in tennis can result from bunting and bad technique and that makes tennis unique among commonly played sports.

We are beating a dead horse here. The fact is that in other countries the kids start young in TRAINING, not with them and their parents seeking a trophy or a 6 year old match for grandma to cheer for. Its not the age, it is the goal of the training.

The "foreign" coaches over here have to give the American parents what they want.

And I know you are just using Brooke as another reason to argue. My post was 100% what other coaches have said about her. She could have been a top pro had she not been allowed to hit with less than optimal technique.

No shorter top pros play like that. Every Chinese women takes the racquet back and up, Henin takes the raquet back and up. Every top pro takes the balls as early as possible. The first thing the Spanish teach, the first thing the Serbs teach, the first things the Russians teach, the first thing the French teach...is the racquet head is taken back and pointing up so the extra momentum can go into the stroke.

Implying that Brooke's coaches having a straight take back that went out 10 years ago because they are changing the game is truly just a waste of our time as it is you trying to be silly. You saying it is a new trend is about the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.
 
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ClarkC

Hall of Fame
Guessing Pitches, moving around in the batters box based on pitchers not your hitting zone.

You can create a solid hitter that makes contact by driving all pitches, or kids will learn to pull, guess, slap. These produce off balance lazy hitters that at young ages have success.

If you saw then doing that in the cage you would correct them, or they may not show you until its game time.
But baseball players are constantly monitored by coaches. None of this "no coaching during the game" as you have pointed out. When tennis players are off at a tournament doing the wrong thing, their coach is almost never there to see it, and would not be allowed to say anything until the match is over.

There is a lot of technique in baseball, and very little of it can be done the wrong way for any benefit. Throwing, catching, base running, stance and balance in the batter's box, you better do these things right. Guessing at pitches you might get away with. Not much else. Tennis is not analogous at all.
 

seminoleG

Semi-Pro
But baseball players are constantly monitored by coaches. None of this "no coaching during the game" as you have pointed out. When tennis players are off at a tournament doing the wrong thing, their coach is almost never there to see it, and would not be allowed to say anything until the match is over.

There is a lot of technique in baseball, and very little of it can be done the wrong way for any benefit. Throwing, catching, base running, stance and balance in the batter's box, you better do these things right. Guessing at pitches you might get away with. Not much else. Tennis is not analogous at all.
I will say in the field you may be correct, but Pitching and Catching you can get great success at lower levels doing things very wrong.

Young Pitchers aim the ball all the time and get Strikes, young Hitters Guess, and sit on specific pitches. Both will net you short term results but as you get bigger stronger they stop working.
 
You mean the part where young Andy Murray was doing a lateral movement footwork drill, and the whole point of the drill was the movement and he was only supposed to stroke the ball back to the coach? That's what led you to criticize his strokes?

I hope you know more about tennis than you are displaying with these comments.
Sure he does. Pro Tour likes to grab any video that he thinks can make his point. Comparing Murray to the typical USTA U10 moonballer is beyond silly.
 
I will say in the field you may be correct, but Pitching and Catching you can get great success at lower levels doing things very wrong.

Young Pitchers aim the ball all the time and get Strikes, young Hitters Guess, and sit on specific pitches. Both will net you short term results but as you get bigger stronger they stop working.
And perhaps why the Latin American countries, very competitive and highly coached on technique, produce many great players for the size of their populations.

We have a trend here. Any youth sport that Americans can take short cuts with, we are outclassed eventually by smaller countries that focus on early technique.

Tennis we see it in a glaring way as bad technique is rewarded for little kids with early tournament wins. Baseball you may see it a little as only some parts of the game can bad technique be used by a little kid. Golf you see it not at all as every kid will only win with the best technique from day 1.

Basketball is another great example. A little kid can more easily shoot a ball underhand at first. Try that technique in a pick up game and you will be sitting and watching the 8 year olds that shoot it the right way. Hence, our hoops players can take no short cuts as kids and win.
 
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Soianka

Hall of Fame
I'm friends with the other girls parents. During the tiebreak they felt it was a great match. Nice crowd cheering both girls. I was stoic and they couldn't understand why. A pusher was able to take a girl who hits well, down to her level with 15 shot moonball, pushing! Blocking rallies. We were up I was quiet we were down I was quiet. The plan is the plan and I could see we were falling short. In a perfect world i would have defaulted her. Sounds radical but the fact we talked about what was needed during tiebreak and she decided to continue the pushers path was a problem. Coach will address on Monday.

Fast forward to ride home. Normally we don't talk tennis when she leaves court. All that is needed to be said takes place then n there. Today because she was so sad I asked why you sad. Because you lost, or didn't do what you were told. Win or lose today you were alone as you decided to play a new style. When you are alone everything is harder. Today we lost, not in the tiebreak in your belief that winning is important.

So I asked if you wanna win I'll put you in QS? No daddy.

OK If you wanna learn and do what coach ask well continue play regulation matches.

Girl was #1 seed a pusher we lost 12-10. THANK GOD WE LOST. We almost won and that would have been HORRIBLE! Wife even agrees on this. Daughters on play date, beach Jet Skis tomorrow. Smile back we will have fun and next week back to fight USTA tourneys are every thing vs Coach technique and plan to get better approach.
I'm feeling eliminating 10U may backdoor us into a better overall training plan.

There would be no point of defaulting her from the match because she didn't follow your plan.

That's the whole point of playing matches so that she will learn herself and that she will figure out what works for her.

As for the pushers and the moonballers, they are not quite so easy to beat as parents would like to think. In fact at the early ages, I would say the "hitters" lose most of the time to the moonballers.

It's good for your daughter to play all different kinds of styles and figure out how to beat them.

Also figure out how to impose her game on the other player instead of vice versa. It's a tough lesson but she will learn.

I suspect this isn't the last time she makes this mistake. This is all part of the process if you are going to let her play tournaments.
 
There would be no point of defaulting her from the match because she didn't follow your plan.

That's the whole point of playing matches so that she will learn herself and that she will figure out what works for her.

As for the pushers and the moonballers, they are not quite so easy to beat as parents would like to think. In fact at the early ages, I would say the "hitters" lose most of the time to the moonballers.

It's good for your daughter to play all different kinds of styles and figure out how to beat them.

Also figure out how to impose her game on the other player instead of vice versa. It's a tough lesson but she will learn.

I suspect this isn't the last time she makes this mistake. This is all part of the process if you are going to let her play tournaments.
I think the context of his post is within the discussion on allowing kids to play early tournaments vs focusing more on technique practice.

In this case his daughter only had trouble beating the pusher when SHE also became a pusher instead of using the proper techniques. So the issue is not how to beat a pusher, it is how to get kids not to resort to lame technique just to win a worthless U10 or U12.

Again the problem is that had she beaten the pusher using bad technique she would very likely have used bad technique again and again, making it hard for her to develop into the great player they want her to be.
 

klu375

Semi-Pro
By the way klu, once again here is the Dutch soccer article. It outlines on page 5 how the American system is different than the Dutch, Brazilian, and other countries. Its the same early match wins, regardless of technique, problem that exists in US tennis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06Soccer-t.html?_r=1
Hm... interesting. 5-year old playing matches against 9-yo kids in organized setting with Ajax scout observing. Why is he playing matches and not drilling? Does he have the perfect technique that he will use in 15 years in Barcelona? Is he adjusting to keep up with these bigger boys? And why are they playing matches? They are only 9 after all and they need to drill until 14 too. I think Dutch queen should call the club and stop this madness.
 
Hm... interesting. 5-year old playing matches against 9-yo kids in organized setting with Ajax scout observing. Why is he playing matches and not drilling? Does he have the perfect technique that he will use in 15 years in Barcelona? Is he adjusting to keep up with these bigger boys? And why are they playing matches? They are only 9 after all and they need to drill until 14 too. I think Dutch queen should call the club and stop this madness.
Never mind, you are just wasting my time being a clown. The entire article, posted by Pro Tour, was that in the successful Dutch system they train 10 times more with 10 times less actual matches than American kids. The entire article states about 20 times that the best kids drill and drill and drill and drill....and only compete after they have drilled for years.

So you pick out a practice match where scouts are looking for the best kids, a setting where kids would extend maximum effort and show their best technique to attract a scout, not a parent in sight......and try to compare it to a USTA U10 moonball fest using awful technique for a plastic trophy with pop pop and nana cheering after every point.

Yawn, you bore me like all trolls.
 
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seminoleG

Semi-Pro
I think the context of his post is within the discussion on allowing kids to play early tournaments vs focusing more on technique practice.

In this case his daughter only had trouble beating the pusher when SHE also became a pusher instead of using the proper techniques. So the issue is not how to beat a pusher, it is how to get kids not to resort to lame technique just to win a worthless U10 or U12.

Again the problem is that had she beaten the pusher using bad technique she would very likely have used bad technique again and again, making it hard for her to develop into the great player they want her to be.
I have learned this. Talked with many Coaches

Getting a Hitter to Hit and not Push against a Pusher is one of the more difficult lessons. Seeing a Hitter take a pushers ball and firing it back does 2 things from what I have seen:

- Challenges the pusher to now hit, as tough to push the harder shots
- Makes the Parents wonder what they been paying for, because if I had a $1 for everytime I'm asked where do you train...... Why because they see her "TRYING" to take advantage of short, soft, poorly played balls. Win or Lose it is easy to see.

~Month ago she also played a Pusher, but got to see the Pusher play the Semi. I stressed she would need to hit, as the Girl who lost to the Pusher resorted to Pushing. So she knew what to expect, had a game plan and was successfull. Actually hit some nice firm ground strokes that the Pusher couldn't handle.

These discussions are exactly what parents like myself need to fill in the GAPS that our kids just won't get from Academy Training.
 
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arche3

Banned
It is true about the 10 year old kids moon balling though in the USA. Most of my 10 year old sons friends who take lessons still moon ball. My son has started calling them pushers too. lol. I called a friend of mine a pusher one time and my son started using it too. :)

What I do now with my son is every 2 or 3 balls I will give him a "pusher" ball. of various varieties and depth. And expect him to hit it with a full swing and proper mechanics and proper footwork. If its a short dink to the middle of the court I have told him to hit the winner. either side. He is still getting the hang of playing against the pusher game... as I am actually (I discovered) a pretty good pusher! But I already see him improving technically against this type of play. The patterns and strokes needed to deal with it he is slowly getting comfortable with now. I think it will help him mentally long term to learn how to counter act this type of play.
 
You mean the part where young Andy Murray was doing a lateral movement footwork drill, and the whole point of the drill was the movement and he was only supposed to stroke the ball back to the coach? That's what led you to criticize his strokes?

I hope you know more about tennis than you are displaying with these comments.
ok so working on footwork with lazy technique is ok, tell that to TCF :) the kid was lazy, he was known to be lazy at sanches, everyone who knew him said the same thing, he even said it himself in the video, it is apparent in the video from his living conditions to the way he moves to his strokes. he was LAZY and did not put in alot of effort in alot of things, it is his personality
 

BMC9670

Hall of Fame
It is true about the 10 year old kids moon balling though in the USA. Most of my 10 year old sons friends who take lessons still moon ball. My son has started calling them pushers too. lol. I called a friend of mine a pusher one time and my son started using it too. :)

What I do now with my son is every 2 or 3 balls I will give him a "pusher" ball. of various varieties and depth. And expect him to hit it with a full swing and proper mechanics and proper footwork. If its a short dink to the middle of the court I have told him to hit the winner. either side. He is still getting the hang of playing against the pusher game... as I am actually (I discovered) a pretty good pusher! But I already see him improving technically against this type of play. The patterns and strokes needed to deal with it he is slowly getting comfortable with now. I think it will help him mentally long term to learn how to counter act this type of play.
Good for you to practice against these shots as they will not go away. Even at the higher levels, players will throw balls up high for defense now and then. I have him practice flattening these out and using it as an opportunity to go on offense.
 
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