When a player is a bad match up for another player is there a way to coach around that?
- Thread starter insideguy
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InsuranceMan
Hall of Fame
Yea
GodlessEndeavor
Professional
I think you don't want coaching to be all about overcoming weaknesses, since that's not confidence-inducing. But there's definitely some room for that.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
This is the type of question tennis journalists should be asking. Seriously, they ought to be paying you for this.
Feel like the answer is, 'yes, absolutely, within reason, for the best players. But it's really hard to keep that up in every subsequent match'
But I would pay you to hear a pro's insights on this.
Me to. Anyway im trying to elevate the convo on this site a little
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Me to. Anyway im trying to elevate the convo on this site a little
What do you think?
Hmmmm. Well I sort of asked the question, in that im not well educated on this subject as far as coaching. I mean I have watched the sport, and also played it.
So its a genuine question.
Now I think what I think is yes coaching can help, but its not a be all end all.
For example Swiatek vs Penko. Now how the hell can you coach IGA consistently not to hit a ball that comes up directly into her( Penkos) strike zone?
dking68
Legend
Is Sinner a bad matchup for Medvedev and Novak now?
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Wait, that feels like 3 different answers.
1) A player who is just fundamentally worse (not a matchup issue in the typical sense, but rather a weight class issue)
2) A player who is ranked lowly (but is talented) who teams up with a new coach who makes a significant change to their approach to the game. See: Denis Shapovalov and Tipsy. He is literally beating top 5 players left and right. We see a bit of this with Wawrinka and Murray, although not as big a leap.
3) Your answer to the matchup question
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Not necessarily. Their levels have dropped, his has come up.
It's like asking if Hurkacz is a bad matchup for Federer. It's a bit hard to say.
But you can say that they are no longer bad matchups for him. (And I would actually argue that neither was necessarily a bad matchup for him, but rather just in better form. Alcaraz is a bad matchup for him.)
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
It seems like Nadal’s coaches told him to hit his FH into Federer’s BH all the time, but Federer’s coaches forgot to tell him to change point patterns so that he could pound his FH always into the Nadal BH. So, Nadal made Federer have a matchup issue, but Federer didn’t return the favor.
Rafa4LifeEver
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic didn't have a matchup problem with Rafa even before 2011 afaik.
11-7 h2h.
Rafa4LifeEver
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, definitely not a matchup issue per se.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Cut their jacobs off.
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
If you haven’t watched, sinner copied some of medvedevs tactics then used them against not only him, but others. The thing that separates med and sinner is much more talented from a physical level. Sinner stopped the ball bashing and honed in to be more tactical which made him more dangerous.
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
Why do I feel the moment fed changed, he didn’t lose to nadal? And if he did it was like 7-1 or something like that…..
dking68
Legend
Clearly you’ve got poor tennis IQ mate. Ain’t no way Sinner copied Med’s tactics. If anything, he’s playing like a more aggressive version of Novak ie) Djokovic 2011-2016, that’s how I think he’s playing. Passive aggressive. He ain’t standing 20 meters behind the baseline to return the serve, he takes initiative and put his foot forward
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
Zod has winning records against Sinner and Alcaraz, but a losing record against TPas, who sucks against Sinner and Alcaraz. Matchups are 100% a thing
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
He’s not standing 20 meters behind the baseline consistently but he’s added that in certain matches against bigger servers. Maybe your high tennis IQ picked that up, mate?
Also if you’re stating medvedevs tactics are “low tennis IQ” and “offensive” for sinner to add to his game, you my friend might want to question your tennis IQ. Med also mirrored his game after Novak. But he was a lesser talented version of Andy Murray so his fitness, IQ and tactics were a reason he won 22 titles and a GS.
Sinner is an elite talent who has put it all together.
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Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Tsitsipas doesn't suck against Sinner. He's 6-3.
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
Sorry you are right. He sucks against Alcaraz but not Sinner. Which even makes the point more clearly.
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
Yeah but they haven’t played much have they? Med was what 7-0 then they happened to play like 9 times from October 2023 to November 2024 lol
Although I’d love to see the resurgence of Titsipas take on sinner. Dudes on fire right now.
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
I wouldn't shed a tear if Sinner never won another Slam
dking68
Legend
Btw it’s 20 titlesHe’s not standing 20 meters behind the baseline consistently but he’s added that in certain matches against bigger servers. Maybe your high tennis IQ picked that up, mate?
Also if you’re stating medvedevs tactics are “low tennis IQ” and “offensive” for sinner to add to his game, you my friend might want to question your tennis IQ. Med also mirrored his game after Novak. But he was a lesser talented version of Andy Murray so his fitness, IQ and tactics were a reason he won 22 titles and a GS.
Sinner is an elite talent who has put it all together.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
You guys keep spamming this same chart without even looking into those events. Davy wasn’t even making it deep enough for it to matter where he was placed, lol.davydenko was a very bad matchup for rafa on HC and had 6-0 vs him i period 08-11 but they find the way!
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
My bad. Such a terrible career.
But hey atleast he can say he won them without a failed PED test, or 2
dking68
Legend
3>1My bad. Such a terrible career.
But hey atleast he can say he won them without a failed PED test, or 2
8-7
40>16
3-0 vs 1-5
Don’t even get me started
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
Lol I don’t care to argue who’s better than who. That’s kinda petty. Facts are I never brought a debate of medvedev over sinner. It’s clearly obvious sinner >>>>med so if you think I’m arguing that, you have some things to reflect on.
You emotionally responded to a pretty positive comment about your boy Sin bc you didn’t comprehend and immediately took offense, for some reason. So my suggestion is to take some time to reflect prior to posting.
I’ve only provided facts. I tend to like sinners game bc it’s so versatile. Can counter punch at a high level and attack on a high level. Mirroring tactics from other top 10 players isn’t a dig nor sign of disrespect at all. So unsure why you took it that way…
Is it necessarily the coach who does it? The player played the match and should be able to discern what were winning or losing patterns of play. If they can't work it out from memory, they can also watch the video. A coach might help a player an opponent with whom they have difficulty. Equally, the player might use their own brain to do the same thing.
SpinToWin
Talk Tennis Guru
Yesn’t? It really depends on the reason for the bad matchup and the extent you can counteract it. Take Fed who worked on his Nadal matchup by taking the backhand earlier, especially on the return. Not every player can make that adjustment successfully.
Coaches can help identify ways to change matchup dynamics and work on them, that much is true.
Coaches can help identify ways to change matchup dynamics and work on them, that much is true.
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
Fed changed rackets strictly to handle nadal going with heavy RPMs to his backhand to handle it better.
I think djokovic- according to Roman Prokes , made a racket adjustment to handle nadals heavy top spin on clay better. Maybe I misheard or misunderstood since he supposedly was limited with the 18x20 95sqin against certain play styles.
Subway Tennis
G.O.A.T.
When I read your OP the first matchup that came to mind was Ostapenko vs Iga
Im sure Iga’s coach has given her a million insights into how to make inroads on Ostapenko. There are tactics Iga is not doing that are obvious to us so Im sure they are occurring to Iga’s coaching team and Iga herself.
I think there are ways to coach a player out of a bad matchup, but sometimes the agency is out of the coach’s control slightly. In Iga vs Ostapenko case, one of the things that might stop Iga establishing a new game plan is that she spends so much time reacting to Ostapenko’s all-out attack. When you feel under siege it’s mentally hard to risk a new strategy in the few neutral points that might be on offer when Penko is on a hot streak.
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
Even at the pro level ; it’s all about confidence.
When you’re say 0-6 or 5-15 against someone , it’s all about the mental approach. You’re familiar with their game enough to know what’s coming. Coming in prepared to counter it and adjust for a winning result is about confidence, from my opinion.
There are pros you can see in those instances that just look mentally defeated even before the match is over.
Like I’ll give Australian open for example: Shelton playing Sinner in the semis. No it’s not s lopsided match up. And sinner can hit the ball harder than Shelton. But sinner played more patient knowing Shelton was going too heavy through the court and just drained his energy. Shelton went from serving for the opening set to getting steam rolled even with sinner cramping in the 3rd lol
When you’re say 0-6 or 5-15 against someone , it’s all about the mental approach. You’re familiar with their game enough to know what’s coming. Coming in prepared to counter it and adjust for a winning result is about confidence, from my opinion.
There are pros you can see in those instances that just look mentally defeated even before the match is over.
Like I’ll give Australian open for example: Shelton playing Sinner in the semis. No it’s not s lopsided match up. And sinner can hit the ball harder than Shelton. But sinner played more patient knowing Shelton was going too heavy through the court and just drained his energy. Shelton went from serving for the opening set to getting steam rolled even with sinner cramping in the 3rd lol
dking68
Legend
He doesn’t copy Medvedev.. anyways mate, go watch some more matches
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
I said some of.
Again - reading comprehension skills. Mate.
Wurm
Professional
If there's a tactical option the player is capable of executing that the player hasn't tried, for whatever reason, then yes. If there's a technical reason why it can't be done then maybe that technical issue can be addressed, maybe not.
Ultimately the problem with tennis is your opponent is allowed to hit the ball back and even if the coach identifies a way around the matchup issue there's no guarantee the player can execute the plan successfully...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/t...-Nadal-crushes-Andy-Murray-in-semi-final.html
“You can go out there with, you know, all the tactics in the world, but when he’s hitting the ball like that, it’s very difficult to put the ball where you want to."
The most visible sign of a bad match-up was the run-up to end of 2013. Federer was terrible with Nadal, Murray and Berdych; his record towards those three up to end of 2013 was a terrible 27-40. His switch to bigger racquet in 2014. His record towards those three since 2014 was 23-1!
Those three were chosen, because they were among four most successful before the 2014 switch. The fourth was of course Djokovic, who seemed more successful after the switch!
I don't know whose idea it was to make the switch. Was it Federer, Lhubicic, or someone else?
Those three were chosen, because they were among four most successful before the 2014 switch. The fourth was of course Djokovic, who seemed more successful after the switch!
I don't know whose idea it was to make the switch. Was it Federer, Lhubicic, or someone else?
FlyingSaucer
Professional
If an 11-6 head-to-head is "terrible" then we can obviously argue that Djokovic was positively owned by Roddick.
"23-1" since 2014 is wrong, by the way.
Keizer
Hall of Fame
Zverev and Tsitsipas’s H2H vs Sinner are going to end up like his H2H vs Medvedev. Really nothing much Zverev can do to trouble him, even on a good serving day. Tsitsipas played well against him in Monte Carlo but he was obviously injured and got a bad line call to boot. Only Alcaraz can hit this guy off the court these days.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Fed switched to a larger frame because he had no choice at that point. His smaller frame made him vulnerable to the entire field after his movement had further declined.
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