When all is said and done, who will have had the better clay career?

When all is said and done, who will have had the better clay career?

  • Clayderer (Fedr)

    Votes: 18 40.9%

  • Thiem

    Votes: 26 59.1%
  • Total voters
    44
Nadalgaenger

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
Which stalwart of the 1HBH and speaker of Deutsch will end up with a better clay resume when all is said and done?

Here are where their relative winning percentages stand on the clay at the moment:

https://www.atptour.com/en/performance-zone/win-loss-index/career/clay/all/

Fed can blame Nadal for taking away several FO titles, but Thiem wasn't competing in that era either, and Rafa has beaten Thiem in the last two FOs at late stages.

Fed has 11 career clay titles (but obviously several of the highest echelon). Thiem has 8 and hopefully will start winning the big titles soon on the dirt.

Thiem MAY emerge as a major force on clay in the post Rafa landscape, but no guarantees that Zverev, Tsitsipas, FAA, or other guys won't stop him.
 
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A

angrybirds89

Rookie
Thiem has a very good shot of winning atleast 2 RG titles. Assuming he wins several Masters minimum on clay with that good chance it will be him.
 
Towny

Towny

Hall of Fame
In terms of level, it's Federer and it's not close. That's unlikely to change given that Thiem is already 25. There aren't many players who play a much better level of tennis later in their career.

In terms of achievements, it's difficult to say. Federer won 1 RG with 4 finals and 6 masters titles. Thiem is on 2 finals at RG with 0 masters titles. That could change this season. The main question is whether Thiem can win more than 1 RG title. Once Nadal has completely declined, he'll be in good position to win. So the question is whether another force on clay will emerge to stop him. Too difficult to predict.

If I had to put money on it, I would say that Federer would probably just about edge Thiem in achievements at the end of their careers. I expect Thiem will get 1 RG title but I don't think he's winning more than that. In any case, the next few years will be crucial
 
Nadalgaenger

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
Towny said:
In terms of level, it's Federer and it's not close. That's unlikely to change given that Thiem is already 25. There aren't many players who play a much better level of tennis later in their career.

In terms of achievements, it's difficult to say. Federer won 1 RG with 4 finals and 6 masters titles. Thiem is on 2 finals at RG with 0 masters titles. That could change this season. The main question is whether Thiem can win more than 1 RG title. Once Nadal has completely declined, he'll be in good position to win. So the question is whether another force on clay will emerge to stop him. Too difficult to predict.

If I had to put money on it, I would say that Federer would probably just about edge Thiem in achievements at the end of their careers. I expect Thiem will get 1 RG title but I don't think he's winning more than that. In any case, the next few years will be crucial
Click to expand...
In terms of career win percentage on clay, they are remarkably close. Fed has won around 76% of his clay matches; Thiem is at 74% or so. They’re 15 and 17 on the all-time list. The only active guys that Thiem trails on the list are the Big 3. Thiem is closer to Fed in win percentage than Fed is to Djokovic.
 
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MeatTornado

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
Putting in this much work on clay and still not even having a single Masters title to his name at 25 doesn't bode well. He's going to have to do the bulk of his accomplishments from here and considering his style of play and scheduling, he's very likely to have injury problems on the back half of his career.
 
Towny

Towny

Hall of Fame
Nadalgaenger said:
In terms of career win percentage on clay, they are remarkably close. Fed has won around 76% of his clay matches; Thiem is at 74% or so. They’re 15 and 17 on the all-time list. The only active guys that Thiem trails on the list are the Big 3. Thiem is closer to Fed in win percentage than Fed is to Djokovic.
Click to expand...
That's true, although I imagine Thiem's percentage has been aided by playing loads of 250s (7 of his 8 clay titles are ATP 250 tournaments)
 
DerekNoleFam1

DerekNoleFam1

Hall of Fame
Thiem has to start converting his chances soon, he has beaten Nadal on clay, but still doesn't have a clay M1000 to his name.
Providing he can see off Nadal, he should become a multi RG winner.
 
NEW_BORN

NEW_BORN

Hall of Fame
Federer's clay career at a glance (so far)

Overall record 214 wins to 68 losses (76%)
Best of 5 record - 81 wins to 24 losses (77%)
11 clay titles from 26 finals across 7 different tournaments
1 FO from 5 finals
4 Hamburg masters from 5 finals
2 Madrid masters from 3 finals
1 Gstaad from 2 finals
1 Munich
1 Istanbul
1 Estoril
4 Rome finals, 4 MC finals
Only player to ever win on red clay, orange clay and blue clay.

I don't think Thiem will match these numbers, but he has every chance of winning at least 1 FO before he retires.
 
Nadalgaenger

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
NEW_BORN said:
Federer's clay career at a glance (so far)

Overall record 214 wins to 68 losses (76%)
Best of 5 record - 81 wins to 24 losses (77%)
11 clay titles from 26 finals across 7 different tournaments
1 FO from 5 finals
4 Hamburg masters from 5 finals
2 Madrid masters from 3 finals
1 Gstaad from 2 finals
1 Munich
1 Istanbul
1 Estoril
4 Rome finals, 4 MC finals
Only player to ever win on red clay, orange clay and blue clay.

I don't think Thiem will match these numbers, but he has every chance of winning at least 1 FO before he retires.
Click to expand...
Basically Thiem would need 6 clay masters and one FO to rival Fed. It all depends on three factors:
1) How well Thiem plays and how long his career lasts (obviously)
2) How good the clay competition is post Nadal
3) How long Nadal maintains a high level on clay
 
Nadalgaenger

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
Lleytonstation said:
Due to having Nadal around pretty much Fed's entire clay career should be considered. Now I am assuming that Thiem won't have to deal with a top level Nadal in a few years. This makes Thiem's competition much less impressive.
Click to expand...
On the other hand, Thiem has had to deal with 2 top 10 clay guys his entire career whereas Fed didn’t have many clay matches in majors against Nole until the infamous 2011 match.
 
Lleytonstation

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadalgaenger said:
On the other hand, Thiem has had to deal with 2 top 10 clay guys his entire career whereas Fed didn’t have many clay matches in majors against Nole until the infamous 2011 match.
Click to expand...

True, but the same thing could be said about Djokovic dropping top level on clay in the next couple years.
 
True Fanerer

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Nadalgaenger said:
On the other hand, Thiem has had to deal with 2 top 10 clay guys his entire career whereas Fed didn’t have many clay matches in majors against Nole until the infamous 2011 match.
Click to expand...
Federer played peak Djokovic in both of their meetings at FO. Thiem served up a bagel to Djokovic in 2017 at FO. I believe it's safe to say that Federer faced a better Nadal and Djokovic at the French Open compared to Thiem.
 
D

Deleted member 743545

Guest
Better clay career? Federer and it's not even that close.
Greater clay career? Thiem needs a couple of FO tittle to overtake Roger.
 
duaneeo

duaneeo

Legend
Federer will not win another Roland Garros title.
Thiem will eventually win multiple Roland Garros titles.
It's only about the slams.

If you agree with all of the above, the answer to the poll is obvious.
 
Lleytonstation

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
duaneeo said:
Federer will not win another Roland Garros title.
Thiem will eventually win multiple Roland Garros titles.
It's only about the slams.

If you agree with all of the above, the answer to the poll is obvious.
Click to expand...

Yes it could easily play out like this... but it could just easily play out where Nadal/Djokovic get the next three RG.

By then he will be 28 and will still need two RG victories. Hopefully, by then we will also have some other players that are stepping up by then too.

Sure, it is definitely plausible Thiem gets two RG, but definitely not a shoe in by any means. He still has only been to one finals while Fed had been to 3 at this age.
 
Nadalgaenger

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
True Fanerer said:
Federer played peak Djokovic in both of their meetings at FO. Thiem served up a bagel to Djokovic in 2017 at FO. I believe it's safe to say that Federer faced a better Nadal and Djokovic at the French Open compared to Thiem.
Click to expand...
Thiem played 2016 Djokovic and got crushed, right?
I don’t disagree. Nadal has played brilliantly at FO last couple of years so obviously as tough an opponent as one can have on clay.
 
vive le beau jeu !

vive le beau jeu !

Talk Tennis Guru
this thread is incomplete without @Deon Sanders 's precious input... :unsure:
(thanks to his unparalleled expertise about 'the sport of clay tennis')

article-2165378-13CE538E000005DC-259_638x446.jpg
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Nadalgaenger said:
Thiem played 2016 Djokovic and got crushed, right?
I don’t disagree. Nadal has played brilliantly at FO last couple of years so obviously as tough an opponent as one can have on clay.
Click to expand...
But not tougher than the Nadal Federer had to deal with. And Thiem has sucked absolute ass against this Nadal at the FO.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
In terms of achievements, Thiem should surpass Fed given that Nadal will drop his level eventually.

But I don't think anyone will say Thiem is better than Fed on clay. He has done poorly against Nadal at the FO. Much more poorly than Fed.
 
M

merwy

G.O.A.T.
Fedr. Thiem is actually pretty old already. A lot of people think he's still 22-23yo. Not like his still has a full career ahead of him.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Towny said:
In terms of level, it's Federer and it's not close. That's unlikely to change given that Thiem is already 25. There aren't many players who play a much better level of tennis later in their career.

In terms of achievements, it's difficult to say. Federer won 1 RG with 4 finals and 6 masters titles. Thiem is on 2 finals at RG with 0 masters titles. That could change this season. The main question is whether Thiem can win more than 1 RG title. Once Nadal has completely declined, he'll be in good position to win. So the question is whether another force on clay will emerge to stop him. Too difficult to predict.

If I had to put money on it, I would say that Federer would probably just about edge Thiem in achievements at the end of their careers. I expect Thiem will get 1 RG title but I don't think he's winning more than that. In any case, the next few years will be crucial
Click to expand...
Minor correction though: Thiem has 1 final at the FO, not 2 ;)
 
Djokovic2011

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Who knows. One thing I really don't like hearing though is when people try and make out that even if Thiem's clay achievements end up surpassing Federer's that they somehow won't be as legitimate just because Federer faced a younger Nadal but it isn't Dominic's fault that he was born when he was so if he does eventually become the greater cc player then so be it. Results will always mean more than a player's competition, which is subjective anyway.
 
Lleytonstation

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Thiem has lost 7 times to Nadal on clay and Federer has lost 13 times. Not sure how many of those Nadal went on to win, but I am sure it is a lot.

Crazy to think two players that have a 12 year difference in age who were and are exceptional clay players were affected by one man.
 
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