When did Federer officially become old?

When did Federer officially become old?

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  • Total voters
    72
The bolded red doesn't seem to be right. There are other minor disagreements, but it is a matter of opinion (for example, I don't understand how Djokovic's 2012 and 2013 seasons can be "Great", but 2015 only "Very good". Also 2009 "Poor"? Don't understand also how some seasons are given as two things at once, and some are not)

:cool:
That first one was a typo. I meant to say “Very Good” for Djokovic’s 2011 season. Apologies.

To clarify, I use “Very good” to define only the very best seasons, such as Djoker’s 2011 or 2015. “Great” is used to define a second-tier season, like Federer’s 2009 or 2017; still awesome, but slightly less so.

In hindsight, I probably should have rated Djokovic’s 2009 season. He was at least better than in 2010. Editing now
 
That first one was a typo. I meant to say “Very Good” for Djokovic’s 2011 season. Apologies.

To clarify, I use “Very good” to define only the very best seasons, such as Djoker’s 2011 or 2015. “Great” is used to define a second-tier season, like Federer’s 2009 or 2017; still awesome, but slightly less so.

In hindsight, I probably should have rated Djokovic’s 2009 season. He was at least better than in 2010. Editing now
I see.

For some reason I thought that "Great" is the best mark.

:cool:
 
Djokovic and Nadal are of the same generation and roughly the same age. Anything about age being important in relation to them is nonsensical.

And every last one of them counts the same as the 6 previous ones. Anyone could counter that and say the majority of Federer's Slams were won without beating an ATG. Irrelevant.
This is true. Nadal had many times owned pre-peak Djokovic at RG (06-08). No reason to discount Djokovic's wins now they are finally meeting OFF of clay so often (as it should be).

Even Djokovic's Slam finals are okay distributed regarding surface.

Slam Finals at AO: 2-0 Djokovic
Slam Finals at RG: 2-0 Nadal
Slam Finals at Wim: 1-0 Djokovic
Slam Finals at USO: 2-1 Nadal

Good distribution IMO, they played 5 finals on HC (the surface that is played on most of the time), 2 on clay (second most common surface) and 1 on grass (least common surface). Both have played each other twice at their most preferred major event.

Fed was owned by four RG finals

Slam Finals at AO: 1-1
Slam Finals at RG: 4-0 Nadal
Slam Finals at Wim: 2-1 Federer
Slam Finals at USO: N/A

They played 4 finals on clay, 3 on grass and 2 HC (with both finals being played in a period of 8 years between them lol). Played each other most of the time on clay (Nadal's best and Federer's worst surface).
 
This is true. Nadal had many times owned pre-peak Djokovic at RG (06-08). No reason to discount Djokovic's wins now they are finally meeting OFF of clay so often (as it should be).

Even Djokovic's Slam finals are okay distributed regarding surface.

Slam Finals at AO: 2-0 Djokovic
Slam Finals at RG: 2-0 Nadal
Slam Finals at Wim: 1-0 Djokovic
Slam Finals at USO: 2-1 Nadal

Good distribution IMO, they played 5 finals on HC (the surface that is played on most of the time), 2 on clay (second most common surface) and 1 on grass (least common surface). Both have played each other twice at their most preferred major event.

Fed was owned by four RG finals

Slam Finals at AO: 1-1
Slam Finals at RG: 4-0 Nadal
Slam Finals at Wim: 2-1 Federer
Slam Finals at USO: N/A

They played 4 finals on clay, 3 on grass and 2 HC (with both finals being played in a period of 8 years between them lol). Played each other most of the time on clay (Nadal's best and Federer's worst surface).
I pretty much agree with all of this and good point about the Slam finals with Djokodal compared to Fedal. Djokodal's are relative to the way the tour is according to surface and Fedal's are not.
 
No one denied or altered he h2h

However one needs to keep in mind that the path to success since 2014 have come against ‘aged’ rivals . Everyone saw what happened between 2012-13 when the competition was strong
Yes the success of Fedr has come against "aged" competition during 2003-2006. So, he is copping it from 2011 to present, as well. Too bad.
 
Agassi wasn't at his best in 2003. In 2003 he was 33 years old. In 2003 there was no Sampras or prime Federer to compete against, that is the reason why he won the AO 2003.

In 1990 he played 2 GS finals (RG and USO), rather than only 1 like in 2003. He lost the USO final against the child prodigy Sampras and the RG final because of the psychological pression of thinking his wig would fall (he wrote about this in his autobiography). Agassi was undoubtedly a faster and better player in 1990 than 2003.
The wig thing is a stupid excuse, but I do agree that his level of play was high in 1990. On the other hand, his level of play was not very high in 1991. Probably lower than in 2003, and certainly lower than in 1999. And that was my point in the previous post. His best years were discontinuous: his average level was probably best in 1990, 1995, and 1999 (in chronological order). Late 1994, too, but not early 1994.

N.B. His average level was also very high in 1988, even though he was only 18 then.
 
Post 2012.

He was past his best after 2010 AO but still played prime tennis at some events in 2010-2012.

2013 was a disaster post AO. 2014-2016 was a different player with a new racket. Weak ground game. Serve reliant.
 
Or is it simply a matchup effect, were Federer became more effective in older age vs Nad/Mur.. and less effective vs Djo?
Perhaps when they meet he reminds him of his old age?
Yeah you got it with this paragraph minus the dump trolling at the end.

He matched up better vs Murray who was worse himself. He also played him at 3 of his best events.

Nadal’s speed/defence declined a lot so their 2017 matches were decided by the better technical tennis player/ball striker.
 
Federer's winning percentage against top10 not named Djokovic (since 2008):

2015 - 92.3
2017 - 87.5
2014 - 82.4

2010 - 70.6
2012 - 70
2009 - 65
2011 - 64.3
2018 - 50
2008 - 35.7
2013 - 33.3
2016 - 25
LOL 2014-2018 joke weak era confirmed. Grandpa no FH Fed dominating the weak top 10.

He was better at big events in 2008-2012 pick any year.
 
One of the last appearances of peak Hairerer who would make a further appearance then cameos at 2012 YEC, 2013 AO... never to be seen again once he got that 2013 haircut :(
Only Djokovic has been granted the eternal hair peak by the gods. It is the sign of their favour it seems.

Murray peaked at Wimbledon 2016 in my opinion, it's gone downhill since
 
Agassi is a different case and I do believe he was as good of a player at 29 that he was at 25. I do think he began to slow down in late 2000 but he also is not in the same league of an athlete as the big 3 are. Jordan, on other hand, is a phenomenon who did not follow any set protocol or standard. He won his NBA titles and had his best stats and results from 28-35 years of age. In fact, most NBA players peak in their late 20's or early 30's and I also disagree about Lebron being better when he was younger and with Miami. When a player is supremely athletic, and this is true across multiple sports, age is not as detrimental as to someone who is not as athletic and some achieve their peak later than others. As for Nadal began declining in 2011 at 25 years old? I don't see how you believe that.
MJ wasn't nearly as good in his 30s (during the 2nd 3-peat) that he was in the 80s and first 3-peat. He had to develop the fadeaway jumper/post up again to offset his physical decline. Yea I would say the decline for Nadal started to hit in the 2011-2012 timeframe. He wasn't quite the specimen he was from 2008-2010 .
 

Zhilady

Professional
From the 2005 Wimbledon to the 2010 Australian Open, Federer made 18 finals of the 19 Slams he appeared in.

From the 2010 French Open to the 2014 US Open, Federer made 2 finals of the 19 Slams he appeared in.

I don’t know if he got old after the 2010 Australian Open or not, but I think it’s obvious that he was never quite the same after that.
 
From the 2005 Wimbledon to the 2010 Australian Open, Federer made 18 finals of the 19 Slams he appeared in.

From the 2010 French Open to the 2014 US Open, Federer made 2 finals of the 19 Slams he appeared in.

I don’t know if he got old after the 2010 Australian Open or not, but I think it’s obvious that he was never quite the same after that.
Right, and that supports my theory that he was slightly declined but not "old" since 2010 basically coincides with Nadal's peak and Djoker's ascension.

Statistically, athletes peak around 26. Baseball, the grandfather of analytics, has taught us that. That's 2007-08 for Federer, which obviously was a fateful time for him.

He was able to fight Father Time off better than any athlete ever aside from Brady, and we didn't notice because Nadal and Djokovic came along right as he hit that crucial age.

Without them he would have continued to easily dominate the game for another 5 years.
 

axlrose

Professional
We used to just have nadal is undefeated when he wins.
Now we have fed is invincible when he wins and is not old!
So what? Fedr deserves all those worships.

According to KCNA, a high class member of the Korean Worker's Party was hit by a truck and severely wounded. Best doctors all over the country tried their best but the situation was still getting worse. One guy proposed: Why don't we let him watch portrait of the great leader Kim Jong Un? Normally this treatment cures all diseases. Unfortunately it did not work that time and the man was going to die. His family members gathered around his bed to see him for the last time, among them there's a boy wearing a t-shirt with Roger's face on it. The man looked around and saw Roger, miraculously, he sat up and began to talk. One hour later, he fully recovered like nothing ever happened.

Some say Federer is tennis, it's soooooooo wrong because Federer is bigger than tennis!
 
No one denied or altered he h2h

However one needs to keep in mind that the path to success since 2014 have come against ‘aged’ rivals . Everyone saw what happened between 2012-13 when the competition was strong
You don't know that Djoker was mentally weakened at the time?! The fact that he won 3 GS titles in 2015 and 2 in 2016 was because he got rid of that psychic fragility. That's why Becker has become a Novak's coach to help him strengthen his psychic strength, which has succeeded.
 
You don't know that Djoker was mentally weakened at the time?! The fact that he won 3 GS titles in 2015 and 2 in 2016 was because he got rid of that psychic fragility. That's why Becker has become a Novak's coach to help him strengthen his psychic strength, which has succeeded.
He was mentally stronk in 2011, became weak in 2012-13, again Stronk from 2015-16 and then began to be weak again from 2017 till mid 2018 ?
 
He was mentally stronk in 2011, became weak in 2012-13, again Stronk from 2015-16 and then began to be weak again from 2017 till mid 2018 ?
I have Lew on record saying that 2012-2-14 was Djoke's peak.

The conversation was about clay though, so maybe we should make separate charts for peaks for

- surface
- moral
- physical
- Mejores

:cool:
 
You don't know that Djoker was mentally weakened at the time?! The fact that he won 3 GS titles in 2015 and 2 in 2016 was because he got rid of that psychic fragility. That's why Becker has become a Novak's coach to help him strengthen his psychic strength, which has succeeded.
It helps that Nadal fell off a cliff and Federer couldn’t challenge him over BO5.

Stick 2011-2012 Fed into 2015-2016 and I’m willing to bet he wins a W/USO off Nole. Probably in 2014 and 2015 with them possibly splitting the Wimbledon matches and 2015 going 5 sets.

RG too with his 2011 form.
 
He was mentally stronk in 2011, became weak in 2012-13, again Stronk from 2015-16 and then began to be weak again from 2017 till mid 2018 ?
At AO 2012 he was still mentally strong, he mastered unpleasant and difficult moments against Murray and Nadal. But then he began to lose his champions instinct, which was fully reflected in 2013 - not keeping a break in the fifth set against Nadal in the RG semifinal (the infamous fall into the net), spoiled third set against Nadal in the USO final, etc. Winning in the Wimbledon 2014 finale has got rid of psychic fragility, by the way this picture shows how much Djoker has relieved:


Period 2017-1. Half of 2018 was a game collapse.

It helps that Nadal fell off a cliff and Federer couldn’t challenge him over BO5.

Stick 2011-2012 Fed into 2015-2016 and I’m willing to bet he wins a W/USO off Nole. Probably in 2014 and 2015 with them possibly splitting the Wimbledon matches and 2015 going 5 sets.

RG too with his 2011 form.
Well No1e lost a lot of hypothetical matches on TTW. He is great only in real tennis matches.
 
At AO 2012 he was still mentally strong, he mastered unpleasant and difficult moments against Murray and Nadal. But then he began to lose his champions instinct, which was fully reflected in 2013 - not keeping a break in the fifth set against Nadal in the RG semifinal (the infamous fall into the net), spoiled third set against Nadal in the USO final, etc. Winning in the Wimbledon 2014 finale has got rid of psychic fragility, by the way this picture shows how much Djoker has relieved:


Period 2017-1. Half of 2018 was a game collapse.


Well No1e lost a lot of hypothetical matches on TTW. He is great only in real tennis matches.
First half of the post about him coming short in matches due to mental struggles
But with the last line says he's great in tennis matches
Interesting
 
He was mentally stronk in 2011, became weak in 2012-13, again Stronk from 2015-16 and then began to be weak again from 2017 till mid 2018 ?
The competition was weak in 2011, then ultra stronk in 2012-13, suddenly awful in 2014, catastrophic in 2015-16 and disastrous in 2018-present. Djokr has been the same throughout the entire decade.

Satisfying enough? :-D
 
First half of the post about him coming short in matches due to mental struggles
But with the last line says he's great in tennis matches
Interesting
There is no contradiction in my message. Novak was mentally fragile in 2013, why deny it? Fortunately, the mental fragility was he able to get rid of it.

@KINGROGER thinks that if Roger-version 2011-12 was transferred to 2015, he would beat Novak in the Wimbledon final or the US Open final. Only Novak has exceeded expectations many times. In particular against Federer and Nadal, Ultron can improve his game level unexpectedly. Roger version 2011-12 would for Ultron 2015 was not an insurmountable obstacle.
 
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At AO 2012 he was still mentally strong, he mastered unpleasant and difficult moments against Murray and Nadal. But then he began to lose his champions instinct, which was fully reflected in 2013 - not keeping a break in the fifth set against Nadal in the RG semifinal (the infamous fall into the net), spoiled third set against Nadal in the USO final, etc. Winning in the Wimbledon 2014 finale has got rid of psychic fragility, by the way this picture shows how much Djoker has relieved:


Period 2017-1. Half of 2018 was a game collapse.


Well No1e lost a lot of hypothetical matches on TTW. He is great only in real tennis matches.
Yeah true he is great at beating grandpa Fed and Mauresmo Murray. Not quite as great when he has to play prime Fedal.
 

Lew II

Hall of Fame
There is no contradiction in my message. Novak was mentally fragile in 2013, why deny it? Fortunately, the mental fragility was he able to get rid of it.

@KINGROGER thinks that if Roger-version 2011-12 was transferred to 2015, he would beat Novak in the Wimbledon final or the US Open final. Only Novak has exceeded expectations many times. In particular against Federer and Nadal, Ultron can improve his game level unexpectedly. Roger version 2011-12 would for Ultron 2015 was not an insurmountable obstacle.
Everyone is mentally fragile when is losing.

2012-14 Djokovic was great but he had 3-4 opponents who were hard to dominate.
 
There is no contradiction in my message. Novak was mentally fragile in 2013, why deny it? Fortunately, the mental fragility was he able to get rid of it.

@KINGROGER thinks that if Roger-version 2011-12 was transferred to 2015, he would beat Novak in the Wimbledon final or the US Open final. Only Novak has exceeded expectations many times. In particular against Federer and Nadal, Ultron can improve his game level unexpectedly. Roger version 2011-12 would for Ultron 2015 was not an insurmountable obstacle.
100% USO final. A worse Fed had 23 BP... 2011 version who went 2-0 vs a better Nole and held double MP I’d fancy to take it in 4.

Wimbledon 50/50.
 
Yeah true he is great at beating grandpa Fed and Mauresmo Murray. Not quite as great when he has to play prime Fedal.
Don't say :D, No1e in three consecutive GS finals defeated Prime Nadal.

Everyone is mentally fragile when is losing.

2012-14 Djokovic was great but he had 3-4 opponents who were hard to dominate.
In the period between AO 2012 and Wimbledon 2014, Djoker had a balance in the GS finals 1:5, in the period from Wimbledon 2014 have a 9:2 balance. Clear trend change.
 
Don't say, No1e in three consecutive GS finals defeated Prime Nadal.


In the period between AO 2012 and Wimbledon 2014, Djoker had a balance in the GS finals 1:5, in the period from Wimbledon 2014 have a 9:2 balance. Clear trend change.
Then lost to Nadal, Federer and Murray at the next 3 slams.
 

Lew II

Hall of Fame
Don't say :D, No1e in three consecutive GS finals defeated Prime Nadal.


In the period between AO 2012 and Wimbledon 2014, Djoker had a balance in the GS finals 1:5, in the period from Wimbledon 2014 have a 9:2 balance. Clear trend change.
But he lost to Nadal x3 and Murray x2.

You can't always win against players of this level.
 
The number one keyword for most search results would probably be "Federer xx age"

This is often brought up when discussing H2H.. somehow Federers matches vs Djokovic when he was 18-19.. in early rounds COUNT in the H2H..
Also the breathing problem years before 2011.. they also count in the h2h.
But matches at the top stages like 2014-2015 slam finals do not count, because Federer was old!

But, somehow its super relevant when Federer was able to fix his negative H2H vs Murray in his OLDER age
Same goes for Nadal, who had an 23-10 lead in 2014..

...The age of Federer is a true mystery, only understod by the hardest of hardcore Fedfans out there in the world.
He never did. He's still as young as a spring chicken!
 
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