When did Wawrinka first start always chipping/blocking the return back?

Shaolin

G.O.A.T.
I am fascinated by this strategy and have heard that it is the difference that helped him win his 3 slams.

I just watched his 2016 USO match vs Delpo and he chipped every 1st serve back whether it was to his fh or bh. Delpo never s&v'ed to take advantage of this and made a lot of UE's off Stan's blocked returns. Second serves he backs up and rips with topspin but all first serves he stands in closer and blocks back.

Anyway just wondering if anyone knows specifically around what year/tournament he started employing this. I have heard that Magnus Norman recommend it since he was making way too many errors off the 1st serve return and it makes sense to do.
 

Federer and Del Potro

Talk Tennis Guru
Couldn't have learned it from Federer, cuz he always does it on BP and it works maybe 1/100 times (the 1 being the opponent making an unforced error).
 

AceyMan

Professional
Just a general comment here, but I think the squash shot has changed tennis now that it's been accepted as an intentional stroke, not merely the result of an out-wide stab.

On hard-hit balls (like serves) it retains decent pace and with the little bit of backspin it carries it doesn't sit up much.

When you get it back with decent depth it usually doesn't hurt you positionally while letting you get set for the next rally shot like you want.

(Plus, as a bit of a squash player in uni, I'm especially fond of it.)

/AC
 

Federer and Del Potro

Talk Tennis Guru
But Federer does need to take his advice when it comes to playing match points and break points against Djokovic.

Wait what happened to your break until Medvedev 'takes over'? Did you realize we'd never see you again if you kept to that promise?

InsidiousElaborateAiredaleterrier-small.gif
 

Federer and Del Potro

Talk Tennis Guru
Just a general comment here, but I think the squash shot has changed tennis now that it's been accepted as an intentional stroke, not merely the result of an out-wide stab.

On hard-hit balls (like serves) it retains decent pace and with the little bit of backspin it carries it doesn't sit up much.

When you get it back with decent depth it usually doesn't hurt you positionally while letting you get set for the next rally shot like you want.

(Plus, as a bit of a squash player in uni, I'm especially fond of it.)

/AC

This is a good point. Cuz usually Federer pulls it out against big servers when he probably couldnt' get the ball into play otherwise.

Federer has made me hate the shot though, lol. Seen it too many times on failed BP's.
 

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
Wait what happened to your break until Medvedev 'takes over'? Did you realize we'd never see you again if you kept to that promise?

InsidiousElaborateAiredaleterrier-small.gif

If Medvedev and Thiem never take over it will simply mean Federer will be no.3 in slam race by like 5 slams?Who will be laughing then?

Last I remember Federer wasn't laughing that much in USO and AO this year. He can keep the grass so that he keeps donating WBs to Novak.
 

Federer and Del Potro

Talk Tennis Guru
If Medvedev and Thiem never take over it will simply mean Federer will be no.3 in slam race by like 5 slams?Who will be laughing then?

Last I remember Federer wasn't laughing that much in USO and AO this year. He can keep the grass so that he keeps donating WBs to Novak.

I've expected Federer to finish 3rd in the slam race since 2016, so it won't be a "gotcha" moment to me. He did well to delay it with 3 eleventh hour slams.

Still undefeated versus Medvedev though.

But I wish you luck on your Melesian crusade propping up the Tik Tok Gen.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Anyone? Just a bunch of random responses so far that have nothing to do with the question.

Thanks
It’s a great question. Better question is, how does he get away with it at that level?

I chip nearly every return back now too (I got the idea from Stan). It works great in rec tennis. But I played a 4.5+ level guy last week (huge serve; 6’ 3” former pitcher) that served and volleyed, and he just breezed through his returns. I hit every style chip return I could think of and he handled it all.

So why don’t the pros just volley away Stans chip return?
 

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
It’s a great question. Better question is, how does he get away with it at that level?

I chip nearly every return back now too (I got the idea from Stan). It works great in rec tennis. But I played a 4.5+ level guy last week (huge serve; 6’ 3” former pitcher) that served and volleyed, and he just breezed through his returns. I hit every style chip return I could think of and he handled it all.

So why don’t the pros just volley away Stans chip return?

Probably a few reasons
- pros serve bigger so chip returns still come back faster
- no doubt his chip return is of higher quality
- pros have to fear Stan passing them after the first volley, apparently this guy you played didn’t
- usually you want to take something off your serve to come in behind it, so you have time to get to the net
- if they start committing to coming in, he can always go back to taking big cuts at the return
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Probably a few reasons
- pros serve bigger so chip returns still come back faster
- no doubt his chip return is of higher quality
- pros have to fear Stan passing them after the first volley, apparently this guy you played didn’t
- usually you want to take something off your serve to come in behind it, so you have time to get to the net
- if they start committing to coming in, he can always go back to taking big cuts at the return
All good points. But I can’t see Stan being successful against McEnroe, Sampras or Edberg with chip returns. I guess I’m just surprised this could work against touring professionals.

As I said, it works 99% of the time for me. But I can count on guys not being able to volley well and handle variety at my level if they try to come in. But it’s mostly a non issue, because nobody does. However, when I run into a good server and volleyer, they have no problem. Like I’d expect from Sampras for example if he played Stan.
 
Last edited:

Shaolin

G.O.A.T.
It's never made sense and people have been questioning it forever. There's no real answer.
It’s a great question. Better question is, how does he get away with it at that level?

I chip nearly every return back now too (I got the idea from Stan). It works great in rec tennis. But I played a 4.5+ level guy last week (huge serve; 6’ 3” former pitcher) that served and volleyed, and he just breezed through his returns. I hit every style chip return I could think of and he handled it all.

So why don’t the pros just volley away Stans chip return?

I think it works because everyone is so used to a topspin ball coming back that when a low chip comes back it rattles the cage ever so slightly. Also you can stand in closer to the baseine if you're prepared to just chip and not swing fully.

The perplexing thing is why pros dont s&v against it. Maybe they just respect Wawa's passing shots a lot. Or no one feels comfortable s&ving anymore.

It does make it tougher to S&V when someone is on top of the baseline even if they're chipping it. When you SV it's nice to have the returner way back in the court.

To me it looks like the pros outweigh the cons for doing this so which makes me wonder why more people dont do it.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
Good question. To really find the answer, someone would have to study the tapes, and I don't have the patience to do that.

I did look up the 2013 and 2014 AO matches vs Djokovic to see if there was any difference in that timespan, and interestingly enough, there seems to me to be a palpable difference.

In 2013 he blocks a fair share of first serves, but not nearly all, he tries to hit some topspin too. By 2014 he seems to have settled on virtually blocking/chopping every single first serve return. So seems to me that he made a conscious change around that timespan, and if so, there'd be some truth to saying that it may have contributed to his slam-winning success.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
It should be stated that first serve block/chip returns are pretty ubiquitous across the tour though, not just with Stan.

On looking through the matches mentioned above, for example, it was pretty clear that Djokovic himself chips a lot of first serve returns, especially on the forehand side. You sort of have to when the ball is coming at you at that pace. But obviously some players still do it more than others, and Stan does it more than most for sure.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
I’ve always had an above-level forehand volley and a below-level forehand.

About 5 years ago I made a switch to chipping every forehand return.

Now my forehand return is above-level in singles because I almost never miss a return, even though my topspin forehand is still mediocre.
 

weelie

Professional
This question is intriguing, as this winter I lost badly to a guy who chipped all the returns. I had previously thought I should learn to do that, but had not really, but this time I really saw how it negated my game. He returns slow and deep and while I did try S&V a couple of times, I only won like 50% of those points, which was not enough. That match I actually on whim moved from my (super-HL) 102" to an older 98" racket (that I used to play with 4 years earlier), which messed up my game for the match, but since then I've stuck with the 98" which has improved my slice and volleys, so probably I could now start chipping the returns too. Will dot it down to my list of things to work on for sure.

Thanks.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
The same reason nobody exploits Rafa's ridiculously defensive ROS position: no current pro can volley except Fed (who doesn't come in much), Feli or Mischa Zverev. Sampras would ruthlessly exploit Stan's chip return or Nadal standing in Moscow to return serves.

Lmtryur.png
Chipping can actually be effective against S&V, but you do need to stand inside the baseline. Taking the ball high up above the shoulders is easy to do with a chip shot, which allows you to hit downward on the ball, so topspin isn't really necessary. As someone who likes to serve-and-volley when the opportunity presents, I know that a skilled and experienced chipper is much tougher to S&V against than someone who returns from deep behind the baseline. When I see my opponent standing 8 feet behind the baseline to return, that's my cue to dial up a serve-and-volley combo. I'll keep doing it until he adjusts his return position.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Chipping can actually be effective against S&V, but you do need to stand inside the baseline.
Agassi and Fed are capable of doing this.

But who else is even capable of it in today's game? It take extraordinary hand-eye coordination. On super slick, fast grass, watch Andre's ROS position on both first and second serves against Becker who was serving 125-130 MPH first serves. He's inside the baseline on the second serve. Nobody except Fed could pull this off today.

 
Top