When Djokovic beats Carlos, the hype will officially end

Hawaiian grip said:
No one should be "expected" to beat a guy holding two GS at the moment and 22 overall. Djokovic must be respected and Alcaraz is still a nobody in comparison.
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Djokovic is also 36 and far off his best years. It's not like I'm asking him to beat 2011 Novak. But he should beat an ATG from a previous generation as every ATG before him has. And he's hyped up to be the next ATG.
 
mike danny said:
Djokovic is also 36 and far off his best years. It's not like I'm asking him to beat 2011 Novak. But he should beat an ATG from a previous generation as every ATG before him has. And he's hyped up to be the next ATG.
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Djokovic was only one year younger last season and could only be taken out at RG by the ultimate clay GOAT. Sure, Djokovic is not his, say 26 y.o. self, but he's still a pretty damn good player, and Alcaraz is also not supposed to be his "definite" version yet, so no point in drawing that big a conclusion from a match. He's ahead of pretty much anybody in the last three decades at his age, barring Rafa, and Rafa is not the only player that went on to be an ATG.

I mean, if we think about it, Alcaraz already did beat Djokovic last season on clay. Heck, he beat both him and Rafa back to back. Did that somehow "certify" his future ATGreatness? Doubt it.
 
Hawaiian grip said:
Djokovic was only one year younger last season and could only be taken out at RG by the ultimate clay GOAT. Sure, Djokovic is not his, say 26 y.o. self, but he's still a pretty damn good player, and Alcaraz is also not supposed to be his "definite" version, so no point in drawing that big a conclusion from a match.

I mean, Alcaraz already did beat Djokovic last season on clay. Heck, he beat both him and Rafa back to back. Did that somehow "certify" his future ATGreatness? Doubt it.
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You don't have to be at your definitive version to beat an aging ATG.

But since old Djokodal is the only semblance of competition we have, Carlos needs to prove it now that he is the next potential ATG while they're still active. How else are you supposed to prove it other than beating a previous ATG?
 
mike danny said:
You don't have to be at your definitive version to beat an aging ATG.

But since old Djokodal is the only semblance of competition we have, Carlos needs to prove it now that he is the next potential ATG while they're still active. How else are you supposed to prove it other than beating a previous ATG?
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The thing is, Djokovis is not a previous ATG. He's up and kicking and you all are disrespecting him big time. @ibbi put it wonderfully in his/her post:

ibbi said:
I'll tell you what, nobody was stupid enough to make this argument in 2008 when, on a surface he absolutely hated playing on, a washed-up Marat Safin booted the 21-year-old reigning Australian Open champion out of Wimbledon, and so nobody should be stupid enough to make the argument in 2023 if the current defending champion of 2 slams and 2-time champion of this one beats the 20-year-old reigning US Open champion who has never even been past the QF here.
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.
 
weakera said:
If Alcaraz as a 20-year old world #1 slam champion can't beat 36-year old broken down Djokovic on clay, I will never take this new generation seriously.
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What if he doesn't beat him here but beat him at AO or Wimbledon? Will you take him seriously or just one match will define Carlos ?
 
weakera said:
I will forgive Alcaraz is Djokovic beats him at this upcoming AO or Wimbledon, Djokovic is that good, but not here at Roland Garros.
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Fair enough, what i meant was anything can happen in a single match and it shouldn't define a player . If Carlos consistently loses to Djokovic everywhere then you got a point for sure.
 
NeutralFan said:
Fair enough, what i meant was anything can happen in a single match and it shouldn't define a player . If Carlos consistently loses to Djokovic everywhere then you got a point for sure.
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The point is really that Alcaraz is being heralded as a superstar who is the peak of his generation and supposedly on par with the young big three OR even better according to some. If he can't beat 36-year old Djokovic here, it's all hype. Anything can happen in any given match, but short of an injury, the idea of Alcaraz being a legend in the making on par with the big three will be confirmed to just be myth and marketing.
 
It can take a few slam matches to get the belief and understand what's required to win against established players. Like wawrinka against djo at aus open. And djo against fedal took many years at slams.

Of course, there's the qf matches still to be played first before we know whether this match happens.
 
mike danny said:
Alcaraz has to win here for the hype to be validated. Have to disagree with you on this one.

For Djokovic, it wouldn't be a shame. But Carlos's future dominance would certainly be put into question if he lost.
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There's surely an element of truth to that as well, especially the latter.

But for years we have heard how young Djokovic is, that he will be a force until 40 etc. And he has been dominating the slams he's played. Then 36 shouldn't be a problem vs a guy in his 2nd slam semi.

Both still need to make it there of course
 
weakera said:
The point is really that Alcaraz is being heralded as a superstar who is the peak of his generation and supposedly on par with the young big three OR even better according to some. If he can't beat 36-year old Djokovic here, it's all hype. Anything can happen in any given match, but short of an injury, the idea of Alcaraz being a legend in the making on par with the big three will be confirmed to just be myth and marketing.
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First of all Carlos hasn't hit his peak yet, he's just 20 and will get better and he's heralded as superstar doesn't mean hype is not worth it he wins Wimbledon or AO beating Djokovic. Also, Clay is not Carlos's best surface so defeat to Djokovic here doesn't define his career unless he loses to him everywhere in slams.
 
NeutralFan said:
First of all Carlos hasn't hit his peak yet, he's just 20 and will get better and he's heralded as superstar doesn't mean hype is not worth it he wins Wimbledon or AO beating Djokovic. Also, Clay is not Carlos's best surface so defeat to Djokovic here doesn't define his career unless he loses to him everywhere in slams.
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You're entitled to your opinion as am I. Alcaraz losing to Djokovic, this Djokovic, here at RG, will make it very hard for me to ever take him seriously or consider him as someone who could have ever challenged prime big three. Agreed that Alcaraz WILL get better but if he's not already better on clay than this Djokovic, well... yikes.
 
Sampras-Bruguera 1993 said:
That will be it. If you can't take down a 36 year old on clay on his career worst surface, do you deserve the hype?. Its times like this is why Djokovic keeps playing.. To shut people up and end hype trains and break people's dreams. That and... Breaking the slam record en route. DJoker has to be salivating at the mouth of what he can achieve here. Break the hype and cement GOAT.. All in one shot
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Actually, all that does is put Djo back in the conversation tie up the current head to head with Carlos easily beating him the one time they met. Djo continuing to try to stay relevant at his age is a good balance between desperate and driven.
 
Hawaiian grip said:
I mean, if we think about it, Alcaraz already did beat Djokovic last season on clay. Heck, he beat both him and Rafa back to back. Did that somehow "certify" his future ATGreatness? Doubt it.
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It's a completely different kettle of fish to beat these guys in slams. Look at Next Gen.
 
Lol at Djokovic fans.
Carlos beats Nadal and Djokovic b2b in masters - doesn't mean Carlos will be ATG.
Djokovic beats Nadal and Federer to win Masters as a youngster- OMG it was so obvious he was gonna be an ATG...
:-D :-D :-D
 
Hawaiian grip said:
Djokovic was only one year younger last season and could only be taken out at RG by the ultimate clay GOAT. Sure, Djokovic is not his, say 26 y.o. self, but he's still a pretty damn good player, and Alcaraz is also not supposed to be his "definite" version yet, so no point in drawing that big a conclusion from a match. He's ahead of pretty much anybody in the last three decades at his age, barring Rafa, and Rafa is not the only player that went on to be an ATG.

I mean, if we think about it, Alcaraz already did beat Djokovic last season on clay. Heck, he beat both him and Rafa back to back. Did that somehow "certify" his future ATGreatness? Doubt it.
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It's not about only age more about form for me. If they meet Alcaraz very well should be expected to win. Djokovic probably played his worst clay season. He is not only worse than his prime the thing is he is even clearly worse than 2022 and 2021.
Alcaraz is only improving he did looked the best player on clay this season eventhough there were not many good players. And his game is already complete i mean he has all the tools.

Considering all this, Alcaraz being already a slam winner hype around him, potential 10+Slam. There is also huge athleticsm difference btw them current Djokovic to Alcaraz. It's mainly about Djokovic's bad form on his worst surface Alcaraz should be the favourite if they meet.

AO and Wimbledon is different had Alcaraz played AO i wouldn't favour him against Djokovic.
 
Hitman said:
Sorry OP but Djokovic is NO lock to beat Alcaraz here. If you have been watching, Alcaraz has shown the highest level of play this event so far, there is no lock in beating that. Yes, the possibility is there, as Djokovic is the closest skill wise to do it, but by no means is certain the win here.

If Carlos plays that high octane explosive tennis, he will be VERY hard to stop.
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Novak is having problem with Khachanov as we speak.. With everything seen so far, Carlos will be favorite if they play in sf
 
Hawaiian grip said:
This is a preposterous take. It'd be a perfectly winnable match for Djokovic, who is still holding two GS to Alcaraz's one and only lost to another GOAT and clay ultimate GOAT in Nadal last year. Alcaraz is still extremely young and he's already achieved a lot. That hypothetical much has no bearing on his future.
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"No bearing" is probably hyperbole, but I agree in general. Not much bearing! No individual match has that much bearing, and all 20-year-olds have lost winnable matches.
 
mike danny said:
Not absolute bearing, sure, but it will tell us something.
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As others have said, about as much as Djokovic losing to Safin at Wimbledon 2008, or Federer losing to Ancic at Wimbledon 2002, or Sampras losing to Rostagno at Wimbledon 1991, etc. You will read too much into it, of course!
 
helterskelter said:
As others have said, about as much as Djokovic losing to Safin at Wimbledon 2008, or Federer losing to Ancic at Wimbledon 2002, or Sampras losing to Rostagno at Wimbledon 1991, etc. You will read too much into it, of course!
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Djokovic had already done major stuff and so had Sampras. Federer had that win over Sampras.

If Carlos had something similar, I'd be singing a different tune.
 
Krish872007 said:
There are a few people proclaiming him as not only the next ATG in the making, but the next GOAT-level candidate - in effect Big 3 level.
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...and anyone arguing that in their daily 60,000 pro-Alcaraz threads should be seen as being ridiculous in the extreme. Same have latched on to Alcaraz like a hungy leech because they are desperate to "save" the men's game. If the men's game falls, it was meant to happen.
 
MeatTornado said:
No doubt. 07-09 was the weakest of eras. A truly embarrassing time for tennis.
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I know historians are divided on its end, but I argue the Weak Era ended in 2010 because while we did get some great tennis in 2008, it was a hiccup in the broader pattern of 2009-early 2010 being a gimme year for Fed while Rafa was out on injury and then Rafa having no competition while he swept in 2010. Novak's upset of Fed in Flushings did Herald an era where 3 great players with believable shots at beating each other would compete to win slams. And the rest is history.
 
ChaelAZ said:
Actually, all that does is put Djo back in the conversation tie up the current head to head with Carlos easily beating him the one time they met. Djo continuing to try to stay relevant at his age is a good balance between desperate and driven.
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No to mention, this won't really be a big win for either since it's got the biggest asterisks of all-time, not having to face Rafa to win it.

If you win RG and didn't beat Rafa, did you really win?
Uh no.
 

ChaelAZ said:
No to mention, this won't really be a big win for either since it's got the biggest asterisks of all-time, not having to face Rafa to win it.

If you win RG and didn't beat Rafa, did you really win?
Uh no.
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So what do you suggest? Peak Rafa should be cloned and to forever be used as a final boss like in Mortal Kombat?
 
Unseeded Player said:
So what do you suggest? Peak Rafa should be cloned and to forever be used as a final boss like in Mortal Kombat?
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All RG wins will forever be somehow 'less-than' they could have been.

RG without Nadal would look like this in terms of Mortal Combat.


fatality
 
ChaelAZ said:
All RG wins will forever be somehow 'less-than' they could have been.

RG without Nadal would look like this in terms of Mortal Combat.


fatality
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Nadal is the greatest ever on clay but nobody is bigger than the tournament or the sport...

It is the same as you would say: NBA Champion is 'less-than' cause they didn't face Bulls 96-98.... Or Champions League in football, they didn't faced Barcelona 2011..

Nadal has done his part, now others will play for the title.
 
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Hawaiian grip said:
No one should be "expected" to beat a guy holding two GS at the moment and 22 overall. Djokovic must be respected and Alcaraz is still a nobody in comparison.
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Djokovic should be respected, so should be Alcaraz. He is most definitely not a nobody in comparison. At his age he's done a lot, the same way Novak's done a lot at his.
 
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