When do you GET the serve?

sureshs

Bionic Poster
#51
Over 20 years. Serve came easily because I was pretty good at volleyball. But I didn’t realize the need to hit up because the volleyball spike is hitting down. So I was content with the infurior serve till a couple years ago when i had shoulder pain. Which force me to look into the technique. Now I am improving but the consistency still lacks.
A former D1 volleyball player told me the serve came easily because of the volleyball serve, and then proceeded to serve at perhaps lower than 4.0 level. That is when I realized it must not have translated easily.
 
#52
Well, if you wanna roll everything into one, suit yourself.

I like to break things down to separate and detailed understandings.

I mean, for the sake of argument, you include "strength, speed, movement" as part of the stroke and responsible for its breakdown, then someone else, even more arrogant, comes along and argues "water" too. Water is a part of the stroke, too. You certainly need proper hydration to do your stroke. Where's it going to end? LOL
Ok. You’re right. You “got” it. :-D:rolleyes:

Maybe you’ve not had the opportunity to hit with a 5.0+ player before since you’ve posted that you are always the best player at the courts you play at. This being the case, yes, your fh works at all your levels. I can assure you, your forehand won’t work at 5.0+ levels.
 
#53
I wonder if getting it has to do with achieving the Big L BEFORE contact and at this point your hand being in the right position such that ISR/pronation strikes the ball just right. I think this may be the most difficult part to train since your brain wants to open up the racquet on the way up.
The biggest breakthrough for me was figuring out the best way, best alignment of the body for the swing. It has to square away with why we swing up. How we pronate. Where the strength of the swing comes from.

I couldn't learn from tips like swing with the edge of the racket, drop the racket like this. It's too manual and force and isolated.
 
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D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
#54
Well, if you wanna roll everything into one, suit yourself.

I like to break things down to separate and detailed understandings.

I mean, for the sake of argument, you include "strength, speed, movement" as part of the stroke and responsible for its breakdown, then someone else, even more arrogant, comes along and argues "water" too. Water is a part of the stroke, too. You certainly need proper hydration to do your stroke. Where's it going to end? LOL
but isn't that like taking martial arts, and only doing katas, and never sparring? i appreciate the need to refine mechanics, but sometimes you just gonna hit ****, and avoid getting hit.
 
#56
I can assure you, your forehand won’t work at 5.0+ levels.
I already explained above. You and nytennis are very much alike ...

I believe my "competition" FH won't work at a much higher level due to lack of strength, my speed and supporting stuff like footwork, and lack of a good diet (are you gonna say it's part of the stroke mechanic, too? lol). It takes a lot of craps to compete at high levels. That's something anyone can see.


But the competition FH is not the same as the stroke mechanic. The former is "in action". The latter is more like the academic.

We all have to start somewhere.
 
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TnsGuru

Professional
#58
A former D1 volleyball player told me the serve came easily because of the volleyball serve, and then proceeded to serve at perhaps lower than 4.0 level. That is when I realized it must not have translated easily.
Good analogy, I met someone who said he played QB and was a baseball pitcher in high school but recently started playing tennis a few years ago. His serve was very natural and he seemed to get it right away. His other strokes....well, still a work in progress. :confused:
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
#59
When you "got it", did it resolve all your questions? Square away logically? The only part that's variable is the strength and perhaps flexibility. Did you make notes? :)
I have hit about 5 aces in my life. All of them hit the fence (recreational, not the 21 feet away pro fence) in one bounce. But I could never capture those moments in my muscle memory.

I cannot even capture the reasonably good serves I hit.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
#60
Good analogy, I met someone who said he played QB and was a baseball pitcher in high school but recently started playing tennis a few years ago. His serve was very natural and he seemed to get it right away. His other strokes....well, still a work in progress. :confused:
yes baseball is closer. Not cricket mind you, because it has more overhand motion. An old guy I play with has a serve disproportionately better than the rest of his game. Turns out he was a college baseball player in NY.
 
#61
I have hit about 5 aces in my life. All of them hit the fence (recreational, not the 21 feet away pro fence) in one bounce. But I could never capture those moments in my muscle memory.

I cannot even capture the reasonably good serves I hit.
I vaguely recall that you work in an analytical field. Use that strength and figure it out. :) I believe it should be easier than your work.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
#62
I already explained above. You and nytennis are very much alike ...

I believe my "competition" FH won't work at a much higher level due to lack of strength, my speed and supporting stuff like footwork, and lack of a good diet (are you gonna say it's part of the stroke mechanic, too? lol). It takes a lot of craps to compete at high levels. That's something anyone can see.


But the competition FH is not the same as the stroke mechanic. The former is "in action". The latter is more like the academic.

We all have to start somewhere.
but your metric above talks about "pushing your opponent back"... which implies "competition" and "in action".
 
#63
Ok. You’re right. You “got” it. :-D:rolleyes:

Maybe you’ve not had the opportunity to hit with a 5.0+ player before since you’ve posted that you are always the best player at the courts you play at. This being the case, yes, your fh works at all your levels. I can assure you, your forehand won’t work at 5.0+ levels.
Wait did he actually post his forehand before or some other footage? I always thought he didn't post any of his videos, or are you guys just talking based on his description of his forehand?
 
#65
There's so much bullsh!%#$ going on in this place that it makes almost everything discussed and posted irrelevant. I find that it's even more discouraging and nonsense to share more. I suspect that aside from some sincere people or newcomers, most of the usual suspect who post videos and whatnot do that just to massage their ego. Mehh!

I'm open for playing.
 
#66
There's so much bullsh!%#$ going on in this place that it makes almost everything discussed and posted irrelevant. I find that it's even more discouraging and nonsense to share more. I suspect that aside from some sincere people or newcomers, most of the usual suspect who post videos and whatnot do that just to massage their ego. Mehh!

I'm open for playing.
I think some posters just want to see what it is you “got.”

I’m sure many players think they “got” the serve once they stopped double faulting by patty caking their 2nd serve in. :unsure:

But as you already mentioned, different people have different definitions for “getting” it and that’s completely fine. :cool:

For the record, I totally “get” you and where you’re coming from. :)
 
#67
I think some posters just want to see what it is you “got.”

I’m sure many players think they “got” the serve once they stopped double faulting by patty caking their 2nd serve in. :unsure:

But as you already mentioned, different people have different definitions for “getting” it and that’s completely fine. :cool:

For the record, I totally “get” you and where you’re coming from. :)
Alright, if that's all.

I feel like it's not worth my trouble to post videos and plus hundreds of coaches on youtube could do the job of explaining 100x better. This thread is just to convey a feeling. I wanna see more perspectives from fellow learners, their journeys. This is not about learning. I dont' believe learning actions and technicals from this place, either.

I'm not in hiding. Under right circumstances I welcome anyone to play, and will certain make effort on my end.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
#69
There's so much bullsh!%#$ going on in this place that it makes almost everything discussed and posted irrelevant. I find that it's even more discouraging and nonsense to share more. I suspect that aside from some sincere people or newcomers, most of the usual suspect who post videos and whatnot do that just to massage their ego. Mehh!

I'm open for playing.
where are you located? i'll play!
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
#70
Alright, if that's all.

I feel like it's not worth my trouble to post videos and plus hundreds of coaches on youtube could do the job of explaining 100x better. This thread is just to convey a feeling. I wanna see more perspectives from fellow learners, their journeys. This is not about learning. I dont' believe learning actions and technicals from this place, either.

I'm not in hiding. Under right circumstances I welcome anyone to play, and will certain make effort on my end.
i'll agree with you there... 100's of online coaches definitely explain this better than anyone on a forum...
BUT i think folks come to the forum to figure out which of the 1000's of explanations actually applies to them (because they can't figure it out themselves)....
why else would threads about "nipples to net" (but there are million "unit turn" vids out there) and "topspin makes the ball go down" (i can't recall any coaches explaining the *dangers* of the magnus effect, only the benefits... and just presume folks can figure out 1+1=2) get created.

regarding perspectives, i did share my perspective, ie. "i'll never fully get it"... and even defined what i meant by "get it"... but to me, you continued to repeat the same vague question.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
#72
I am in Orange County and LA (border of OC), CA. Sure, we could play if it works out.
nice. i have a co-worker (that i work with regularly) that lives out there.
that's not on my bucket list of places to go atm, but if i ever make it out there (wedding, biz, etc...), i'll look you up.
if you're ever in nyc area, let me know.
 
#73
Alright.

Hope when the time comes both of us are still healthy and tennis-centric enough :)


Man I have never posted this much. In a way I'm not getting enough tennis. :)
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
#74
hehe, to me "technique" includes the mechanics, and speed...
but to be fair, most folks obsess too much with mechanics... when really their mechanic is probably decent, but they just need to hit a million balls as hard as they can... and the mechanics fix themselves over time (obviously i'm exaggerating, but the point is you sometimes just need to stop analyzing/searching for the perfect technique and hit alot more balls)
Why don't we use standard definitions?
Technique is not mechanics. It's the practical way of doing something.
Mechanics is the theory that explains the observed behavior.
A technique can be done quick or slow - some are fast executors of the same technique.
Repeated practice of technique does not make the mechanics right. It makes a good executor of the unknown and mos likely ineffective technique.

The main point of the thread, whether one can get the feeling of getting it in a fixed time period, is not overly controversial imo.
Most people experience false dawn all the time. That's why the term is used so often in tennis.
 
#75
Why don't we use standard definitions?
Technique is not mechanics. It's the practical way of doing something.
Mechanics is the theory that explains the observed behavior.
A technique can be done quick or slow - some are fast executors of the same technique.
Repeated practice of technique does not make the mechanics right. It makes a good executor of the unknown and mos likely ineffective technique.
This is the kind of understandings, and layman communication, that I believe many people use, not just you and me.

Unfortunately, it often gets twisted and becomes convoluted, like being argued if it doesn't hold in a higher level than you haven't "got it". If that's true, then no one got it, not Isner, not Anderson, because these guys have never achieved a Grand slam or #1. Only Djokovic can say he's got the serve, for having no level higher than his. On the women side, it's only Osaka that can boast having the serve. :)
Absurd logic.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
#76
Unfortunately, it often gets twisted and becomes convoluted, like being argued if it doesn't hold in a higher level than you haven't "got it". ...
Absurd logic.
I don't think that's an answer to your question. It is really an unrelated point of view on plan to get better. I'm sure we agree a lot of people want to get better.

I bet @nytennisaddict has felt 'I got it' in his tennis journey several times only to feel handicapped later on.

Tbh, your question was straightforward and tripped people into looking for something hidden there. Mad dog often chimes in with valid points to some other query. He is an active mind and adds more spice than what's really appropriate.

I'm writing all this because I just lost a match after being up 6-1 4-2 30-0.
 
#77
Tbh, your question was straightforward and tripped people into looking for something hidden there. Mad dog often chimes in with valid points to some other query. He is an active mind and adds more spice than what's really appropriate.
I'm quite aware that written posts are very limited, far short of in person communication which has intonation, gestures, facial expression, etc. so I always try to keep posts simple and straightforward.

@nytennisaddict 's response (he never got it) is right on, nothing debatable about it. He feels he never "fully get it" by his own reasons, which is a valid response.

I think where the misunderstanding lies is, imo, how he and mad dog insists that if a stroke (serve, fh, etc) doesn't hold up in a higher level then the players don't get it. I beg to differ. My logics/explanation is given above in post #75. That is it. Simple.

Anyway, I have learned quite a bit about people's perspectives and that's exactly what I came for. I'm always interested in people's perspectives. :)
 
#78
I have hit about 5 aces in my life. All of them hit the fence (recreational, not the 21 feet away pro fence) in one bounce. But I could never capture those moments in my muscle memory.

I cannot even capture the reasonably good serves I hit.
Every rec court I've ever seen has minimum 21-22 feet to the fence. Likely for legal liability reasons.
 
#79
Every rec court I've ever seen has minimum 21-22 feet to the fence. Likely for legal liability reasons.
I think so, too. I have kinda measured the courts I play at. They are roughly 21 ft.

I think sureshs is mistaken. Pro courts should be much longer because even rec players like us crash into the rec court fence a lot and we hit like craps.
 
#80
I think so, too. I have kinda measured the courts I play at. They are roughly 21 ft.

I think sureshs is mistaken. Pro courts should be much longer because even rec players like us crash into the rec court fence a lot and we hit like craps.
Soureshs thinks pro courts are 21 feet and is bragging that his serve hit the back fence on a smaller rec court. Maybe he's playing on a court with 5 feet to the back fence. :(
 
#81
Soureshs thinks pro courts are 21 feet and is bragging that his serve hit the back fence on a smaller rec court. Maybe he's playing on a court with 5 feet to the back fence. :(
Let's give sureshs the benefit of the doubt.

It's quite plausible that if an average player tries his mightiest effort to hit the biggest serve, he can hit a 21 ft fence randomly once in a while.

I have done that out of fluke.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
#82
@nytennisaddict 's response (he never got it) is right on, nothing debatable about it. He feels he never "fully get it" by his own reasons, which is a valid response.
To me, it's nothing debatable on the other end of the spectrum. Unless someone thinks that he is a miserable loser, everyone keeps going back and forth between the state of getting it and not getting it. There is no denying of that, read Jim Collins Good to Great for a great expose on the topic.
Nyta may be saying "not fully" to state the same general phenomenon. Sometimes there is a disconnect between what someone feels vs what he thinks he feels.
On top of that, more scope for miscommunication due to verbal capacity.
 

mxmx

Professional
#83
I've mentioned it before: even at the 4.5 level, there are opponents who don't deal well with the pressure of a relentlessly net-crashing opponent. Of course I'm going to get smoked by the upper 4.5s who love a target and will pummel my 2nd serve. But it doesn't take a great serve to apply pressure.

I think the single biggest improvement I can make to get to 5.0 is the serve.
I wish I knew what the level of my serve is...
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/3-years-later-mxmx-serve-part2.535190/
 

mxmx

Professional
#84
I have hit about 5 aces in my life. All of them hit the fence (recreational, not the 21 feet away pro fence) in one bounce. But I could never capture those moments in my muscle memory.

I cannot even capture the reasonably good serves I hit.
All my serves hits the recreational fence. Is that a good thing?
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#85
I think it doesn't take that long to get it if you can have someone who knows how to teach it show you. It took me a long time to figure it out on my own.

Getting to the point where you can successfully play in a match with something approaching 90% of your potential takes a lot of regular practice.

If only youtube was around back when I was learning.
It was actually easier before youtube, I just did what my coach told me and didn't have all the distractions :)
 
#86
It was actually easier before youtube, I just did what my coach told me and didn't have all the distractions :)
Definitely better with a good coach. That immediate feedback is great for keeping you on track and preventing problematic detours. I only had 2 coaches when I was younger and they were both public school coaches. I did get a single one handed backhand lesson from a distant cousin and that's what made me switch to the one hander. It was an instant fit. I wish I could have gotten a serve lesson from him too. Unfortunately that was literally the only private lesson I can remember. Everything else was group stuff in tennis class. Good for drills, but not the best way to learn IMO.
 
#89
All my serves hits the recreational fence. Is that a good thing?
Well, it's not a bad thing. There is a huge range of serves that will hit the fence. What really matters is how difficult you make it for your opponent to hit a good return.
 
#92
I didn’t want to start a new thread. Just a question: how much of a difference in serve speed do different rackets make? You can discuss the rec tennis but as an interesting example say Kyrgios serves with RF97, a pure strike, Head radical tour, then maybe a 280 g racket etc. All strung with the same string, same tension.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#93
I didn’t want to start a new thread. Just a question: how much of a difference in serve speed do different rackets make? You can discuss the rec tennis but as an interesting example say Kyrgios serves with RF97, a pure strike, Head radical tour, then maybe a 280 g racket etc. All strung with the same string, same tension.
I serve bigger with a heavier racket (and also return serve better).

But my groundies suffer (RHS) if I get too heavy, as do my volleys (too sluggish).

Therefore, my current racket weight is a compromise between good serving, returning, groundies, and volleys. YMMV...
 
#94
Opposite for me, the lighter the easier for me to generate racquet speed and thus easier serve power, the heavier, the harder for my wrist to maintain but the momentum does feel nice
 

mxmx

Professional
#95
Your serves look good from 4 yrs ago. They kick up high on the back fence, good placement good pace. Has it improved, any match videos?
Thanks man :) :)
It would be hard for me to say if it has improved or not. A bit of a mission to make a new video for me. My best guess that it probably has not improved much. I think I may have lost a little pace but have gained a little more variation and placement. I do not hit the first serve in enough but hardly ever miss my second.
Also, I have more control orientated rackets now that has less power than the leaded one in the video.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
#97
For me, 8 months...
hehe, i just caught this in your initial post...
8mos into practicing with a conti grip, i was happy to be able to hit the ball into the box... and for sure it looked like a dink serve, but with conti grip!.
granted i'm pretty talentless, and thus slow to learn...
 
#98
The biggest breakthrough for me was figuring out the best way, best alignment of the body for the swing. It has to square away with why we swing up. How we pronate. Where the strength of the swing comes from.

I couldn't learn from tips like swing with the edge of the racket, drop the racket like this. It's too manual and force and isolated.
Can you expound on what you mean by body alignment?

I "get" the serve off and on. When I'm on, I feel like my body is completely in sync and flows. When I'm off, it feels jerky and unnatural. Focusing on small pieces of it makes my jerkiness even worse.

I like your approach of ignoring details and focusing on whole body. Do you have any tips?
 

time_fly

Professional
#99
How many years in? Or pretty quick for you?
I played for many years with only a weak slice serve. In 2016 I had ACL surgery and had a lot of extra time to slowly come back, so I focused on my serve with some video analysis, youtube, etc. It really was like I finally "got it." Of course I still don't have a pro level serve. but in the space of about a month I went from a weak serve to a serve that gets me occasional aces and lots of easy points when I am doing it well. For me, the biggest change was keeping a stronger tossing side and turning my back more on the load, so that I was able to get a much stronger shoulder-over-shoulder body motion into the delivery. Prior to that, my front arm would drop early and although I "pronated" I was still mostly just slashing at the ball with my arm.
 
hehe, i just caught this in your initial post...
8mos into practicing with a conti grip, i was happy to be able to hit the ball into the box... and for sure it looked like a dink serve, but with conti grip!.
granted i'm pretty talentless, and thus slow to learn...
I have always served/volleyed/OH with a conti grip. I'm always trying to do everything right though things don't always pan out the way I envision. Where the problem's standing right now (if I speed up too much) it's a shallow racket drop and the timing, ie I'm not used to a larger toss/swing yet. Probably just like a very compact FH when most of us started out. (A compact, shorten backswing isn't technically wrong. It's just a bit weakened, imo)
 
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