When will you give your opponent two serves?

[Solat]

i didn't read the 3 pages thru but I know they actually changed this rule last year here in our comps that there is no awarding of a first serve if a ball comes on court between serves. I think ours has a clause for major interruptions but otherwise no.

In the end its gotta be the receiver who decides, I mean no server is going to turn down a 2nd crack at a 1st serve

 

[tennisee]

I mean no server is going to turn down a 2nd crack at a 1st serve

Because of this thread I paid attention to what people did during my comp on Saturday. These are grass courts, and this particular club is a bit unusual because low stone retaining walls at the back of some courts cause the balls to bounce around a bit more than normal.

Anyway - I did not see anyone ASK for a let. Lets were usually offered if a ball (or player running for a wide ball) came over from from an adjacent court in betwen serves. I saw two offers of a let declined because the server did not feel it was warranted for such a minor interruption.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I don't think I would turn down the offer of a first service. Why?

Because if I had declined the offer and then missed the second serve, I would feel like a complete and total idiot.

I do remember once when the receiver offered me two serves, and I didn't think it was warranted. Social match. Before I served, I jokingly yelled I would make sure the first one was a fault. For yuks, I tossed the ball and tried to kill it. It was an ace up the middle to the ad court.

Oops.

 

[Taxvictim]

I wonder why the Code wasn't written that way.

That's the real question, and therein probably lies the way to think about the answer. Why is there any rule about a let at all? Why not just give two serves only, regardless of any delay?

My opinion is that it relates to muscle memory. You take a first serve, and if you miss it, you have an idea about how to adjust your swing, feet, ball toss, etc. for the next serve. If you get interrupted or delayed (through no fault of your own or your partner's), you have lost that muscle memory, and your chances of double faulting are worse. If the server is the person who has to move his feet to clear an outside ball, no matter how quick it is, I always give two serves, because I think the rules and the Code expect a server to get one shot, then a legitimate chance to make adjustments before the second serve.

This same idea applies to the server's partner. His job is to clear first missed serves quickly, hold the extra ball, and do everything he can to let the server concentrate and think only about his serves.

It's the same as throwing darts. You usually throw three in a row, making tiny adjustments to your second and third tosses as you go. If you had to move around and take delays in between tosses, your darts score would be much worse.

We're pretty generous at our club about giving first serves. I have never asked for a first serve, however, and I have sometimes declined it when the other team offered it due to delay caused by me or my partner.

One time while playing another team, the other team's captain came through the gate on our court while my partner was between serves. The capt. took his sweet time re-latching the gate and walking off our court. My partner turned to the other team and said, "Where are we, fellas?" They said, "Thirty all, second serve." My partner said, "No class", then served.

 

[kylebarendrick]

I remain amazed that even though the rules specifically state that the delay caused by a ball rolling onto the court between serves is not a sufficient delay to warrant a first serve, people somehow manage to believe that the intent of the rules is to award a first serve in that situation.

Explains a lot actually...

 

[OrangePower]

That's the real question, and therein probably lies the way to think about the answer. Why is there any rule about a let at all? Why not just give two serves only, regardless of any delay?

My opinion is that it relates to muscle memory. You take a first serve, and if you miss it, you have an idea about how to adjust your swing, feet, ball toss, etc. for the next serve. If you get interrupted or delayed (through no fault of your own or your partner's), you have lost that muscle memory, and your chances of double faulting are worse. If the server is the person who has to move his feet to clear an outside ball, no matter how quick it is, I always give two serves, because I think the rules and the Code expect a server to get one shot, then a legitimate chance to make adjustments before the second serve.

This same idea applies to the server's partner. His job is to clear first missed serves quickly, hold the extra ball, and do everything he can to let the server concentrate and think only about his serves.

It's the same as throwing darts. You usually throw three in a row, making tiny adjustments to your second and third tosses as you go. If you had to move around and take delays in between tosses, your darts score would be much worse.

We're pretty generous at our club about giving first serves. I have never asked for a first serve, however, and I have sometimes declined it when the other team offered it due to delay caused by me or my partner.

One time while playing another team, the other team's captain came through the gate on our court while my partner was between serves. The capt. took his sweet time re-latching the gate and walking off our court. My partner turned to the other team and said, "Where are we, fellas?" They said, "Thirty all, second serve." My partner said, "No class", then served.

Good theory, but I don't buy it. Because what about singles, where you don't have a partner to clear netted first serves? Basically, you have to get your serve to the point where you can just walk up to the line and make your second serve without the benefit of a 'practice swing' a.k.a first serve. Otherwise you will be double-faulting all over the place in singles.

 

[Taxvictim]

Good theory, but I don't buy it. Because what about singles, where you don't have a partner to clear netted first serves? Basically, you have to get your serve to the point where you can just walk up to the line and make your second serve without the benefit of a 'practice swing' a.k.a first serve. Otherwise you will be double-faulting all over the place in singles.

The pros have ball boys for this. Many first faults in singles don't necessarily require clearing by server (long, wide, or the ball stays at the net). For a ball the server does have to clear, the chance of a double fault is higher. In those cases, I end up hitting a much softer second serve, just to make sure it gets in. If I can hit my second serve almost immediately after my first serve, however, it's about 80% of first serve power.

When my wife was still a beginner, we'd play games where I only got one serve. That was a good way to learn to hit second serves right out of the box.

 

[Taxvictim]

I remain amazed that even though the rules specifically state that the delay caused by a ball rolling onto the court between serves is not a sufficient delay to warrant a first serve, people somehow manage to believe that the intent of the rules is to award a first serve in that situation.

You're right. It's a tough situation because, at our club, the etiquette has evolved to the point where you are expected to give two serves if the server has to clear a ball. If I didn't do that, and pulled out my copy of the Code after the match to explain why, it wouldn't get me much more than glares and a lonely table in the club bar afterward. But, I'm going to bring it up with the gang tonight after World Team.

I guess it's like foot faults. There's a rule against foot faults, but no one ever calls them, even when they're pretty blatant.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I think people make too much of the delay between first and second.

All you have to do is play some practice matches where you only get a second serve. That will get you into the habit of making second serves regardless of what happened with your first serve.

I'm with Kyle. I can understand people believing etiquette requires a first serve blah blah blah. But even when confronted by the clear language of the Code, they don't change their position. Very surprising, that.

 

[kylebarendrick]

You're right. It's a tough situation because, at our club, the etiquette has evolved to the point where you are expected to give two serves if the server has to clear a ball. If I didn't do that, and pulled out my copy of the Code after the match to explain why, it wouldn't get me much more than glares and a lonely table in the club bar afterward. But, I'm going to bring it up with the gang tonight after World Team.

I agree with you, which is why I generally go ahead and give people a first serve. It isn't worth arguing about.

My best example was in a doubles match. The server missed his first serve and, before he was even in position for the second, a ball rolled straight to his partner. The partner quickly tossed it back to the other court and the server proceeded to ask for a first serve. As this was the shortest possible delay (which didn't even delay him) my response was like Cindy's: "Why?". He proceeded to double fault and the match was unpleasant from there. When we discussed it later he didn't care what the Code said - only that at their club they always give first serves.

It does vary by club though. Some clubs routinely award first serves for anything: ball rolls on, bird flies overhead, someone sneezed in the clubhouse, etc. Others (golden gate park in SF is a good example) have so many balls bouncing around that you'd never complete a match if you kept awarding first serves.

 

[ttbrowne]

No, No second serve. Even when our friendly group is playing, there's no second serve. We even turn down second serve offers.

But if you want to do it.. don't do it because you think you're gonna get a break from the other team.

 

[tennytive]

I'm the first to offer the other guy 2 for any reason. My partner didn't like it too much when I recently gave 2 and got handcuffed with a service winner to go down 5-3. But we came back to win the set 7-5, so it all worked out.

If the guy keeps hassling you, you might try suggesting if he got his first serve IN, he wouldn't *have* to ask you for 2.

 

[Steady Eddy]

In friendly matches I like to see most points played vs seeing double faults. It also helps if most players make a reasonable effort to get their first serves in play. I often offer two serves to my opponent if there's an interruption. I don't think I've ever refused a request to start a point over.

 

[Peggy]

I agree - if you are questioning because of the strength of serve you must have at least entertained giving them first serve but secretly didn't want to so you could have a better chance to return the serve. I usually try to give the most beneficial call possible hoping that my lead will be followed and overall we'll have a more accurate, giving the benefit of the doubt, etc. match possible. I generally won't ask but sometimes people do not know the rules so if there was a delay I'll ask. One person's short delay is another person's long delay.

 

[Ripper014]

I agree - if you are questioning because of the strength of serve you must have at least entertained giving them first serve but secretly didn't want to so you could have a better chance to return the serve. I usually try to give the most beneficial call possible hoping that my lead will be followed and overall we'll have a more accurate, giving the benefit of the doubt, etc. match possible. I generally won't ask but sometimes people do not know the rules so if there was a delay I'll ask. One person's short delay is another person's long delay.

I could not agree more... if offered a first serve I would only take it if I felt it interferred with my first serve. Otherwise I would thank them and tell them it was ok... and that I would just play out the point.

 

[Peggy]

I could not agree more... if offered a first serve I would only take it if I felt it interferred with my first serve. Otherwise I would thank them and tell them it was ok... and that I would just play out the point.

Hi Ripper 014 - Thanks for the little quote at the end "Doing whatever it takes to win . . . does not make you a winner." I couldn't agree more. Frankly I want my opponents to play out of their mind because the better my opponent plays the better I play and improve too. Winning on any certain day is not the goal for me - getting a good workout and having fun is. I think Sampras did his amazing run by working on improving over winning too. What a great sport this is.

 

[Ripper014]

Hi Ripper 014 - Thanks for the little quote at the end "Doing whatever it takes to win . . . does not make you a winner." I couldn't agree more. Frankly I want my opponents to play out of their mind because the better my opponent plays the better I play and improve too. Winning on any certain day is not the goal for me - getting a good workout and having fun is. I think Sampras did his amazing run by working on improving over winning too. What a great sport this is.

The little quote is my signature... you can put something on your profile as well. You can find it in your UserCP (control panel).

 

[woodrow1029]

Peggy, when were you an official? Did you work pro tennis, or just amateur?

 

[Peggy]

Peggy, when were you an official? Did you work pro tennis, or just amateur?

I just worked as an official for a short time at USTA tournaments and playoffs in Denver. I moved to Washington state and have since decided to quit USTA completely and am only playing now for fun and exercise. It's a blast.

 

[Ken Honecker]

Welcome to the hotbed of tennis that is Washington State. Our 3.5's are everyone else's 5.5's LOL

 

[woodrow1029]

I just worked as an official for a short time at USTA tournaments and playoffs in Denver. I moved to Washington state and have since decided to quit USTA completely and am only playing now for fun and exercise. It's a blast.

Oh ok. I was wondering if I had met you before. Doesn't seem like it though. I am an ITF silver badge chair umpire, and been officiating since '97.

 

[Peggy]

Oh ok. I was wondering if I had met you before. Doesn't seem like it though. I am an ITF silver badge chair umpire, and been officiating since '97.

I would have stayed with it if I had stayed in Colorado but have become very disillusioned with USTA here in the PNW so now am just playing for fun. I'm hitting more with a hitting partner and playing casual singles and improving my tennis and my fitness and my enjoyment of the sport. Last spring and early summer I almost quit the sport entirely. Merry Christmas. Keep up the good work and maybe we'll see you on TV?

 

[tennisee]

After posting on here earlier saying how everyone at my match was giving two serves at the drop of a hat, I have just had the exact opposite experience.

Same courts, different team - young guys though, good sports, but they would NOT offer a let.

I even had a ball roll between my feet while I was getting ready for the second serve. I stop, asertain its origin, return it - no let offered.

First time I found it a little annoying, only a tiny bit - but it was good, because I thought "no way am I giving you guys a free point with a double fault as a result of this" and did not.

Once I knew what to expect it was fine; almost like there is NO let offered EVER. I enjoyed the extra challenge of staying focussed.

I'm serving at match point and the social players on the court next to me have drifted really close to my sidelines and start a loud discussion in between serves. I say, "excuse me guys, I'm serving on match point, would you mind keeping it down?"

It was quite comical - they said "Oh, sorry. Were we distracting you? Would you like a let?" To which I had to rather mournfully reply "Well yes, you did, and I would actually, but I'm afraid it's not really up to you to offer a let - the guys down the other end need to ." Thos guys, of course, are in the ready position and silent as the grave.

After that I no longer expect a let for anything really; It's one less distraction thinking "why wasn't I offerd a let?" One can concentrate more fully on the next serve. I think this should make me a better player in the long run.

 

[amarone]

Same courts, different team - young guys though, good sports, but they would NOT offer a let.

I have watached a lot of junior tournament tennis and have never seen a let offered for a disruption between serves. I suspect that they don't know the rule/guideline.

 

[blakesq]

If I am about to start my second serve, and the opponents, or my partner, are putzing around to retrieve a ball and send back over to another court, causing me to delay my second serve, I usually have no problem asking for a first serve.

 

[Matt H.]

unless the delay is caused by the server, i'll usually give 2 serves to any distraction that lasts longer than 5 seconds.