When your double partner told you not to poach...

[ptuanminh]

A bit of a long story. I play a weekly double social league. On my court, we had A: a high level 4.5, finalist in a local 4.5 single tournament, B: 4.0 (me), C: 4.5 but a bit older, D: 4.5 highschool varsity player. First set, we played A + B vs C + D. Right from the beginning, I tried to play very aggressive at the net, moved around nonstop to poach. We got to a 3-1 lead pretty quickly. Then I made a few critical mistakes that made A lost his serving game. I said sorry and thought we can move on to try to win the set. However, A told me loud and clear to stop poaching and let him hit those shots, clear enough so even our opponents can hear it. Fine, i stopped poaching and just did my job when the ball was hit at me. I felt C + D were a lot more relaxed when i was not moving around to pressure them. A+B lost first set 4-6 to C+D. A suggested we switched up. So the next 2 sets, we play B+C vs A+D.
My new partner, B, knew i like to move around and poach, so he told me to do watever i want. I went all out hunting in the next 2 sets. We won 6-2 6-4 against 2 better players (on paper).
Who would tell their double partner to stop poaching?
I love it when my double partner is active at the net. Mistakes are totally ok. If some mistakes are more systematic, then we can discuss, try not to repeat. But not poaching in double is really silly.

 

[Firepandas]

A bit of a long story. I play a weekly double social league. On my court, we had A: a high level 4.5, finalist in a local 4.5 single tournament, B: 4.0 (me), C: 4.5 but a bit older, D: 4.5 highschool varsity player. First set, we played A + B vs C + D. Right from the beginning, I tried to play very aggressive at the net, moved around nonstop to poach. We got to a 3-1 lead pretty quickly. Then I made a few critical mistakes that made A lost his serving game. I said sorry and thought we can move on to try to win the set. However, A told me loud and clear to stop poaching and let him hit those shots, clear enough so even our opponents can hear it. Fine, i stopped poaching and just did my job when the ball was hit at me. I felt C + D were a lot more relaxed when i was not moving around to pressure them. A+B lost first set 4-6 to C+D. A suggested we switched up. So the next 2 sets, we play B+C vs A+D.
My new partner, B, knew i like to move around and poach, so he told me to do watever i want. I went all out hunting in the next 2 sets. We won 6-2 6-4 against 2 better players (on paper).
Who would tell their double partner to stop poaching?
I love it when my double partner is active at the net. Mistakes are totally ok. If some mistakes are more systematic, then we can discuss, try not to repeat. But not poaching in double is really silly.

Yeah, nobody has ever told me to stop poaching, but I have had to tell myself to settle down sometimes. There have been games where I am so eager to poach that I either go for shots that I am reaching way to far for, or I reach for it and don't hit it, psyching my partner out.

Either way, I always think there should be calm, clear communication. My doubles partner has missed some really easy put away volleys when he has tried to poach because he went for a full wind-up and tried to smash the ball the smithereens. I never blame him, because anyone can make those mistakes, but I do remind him that we don't have to destroy the ball.

 

[Dragy]

Did you say in A's face "See how it goes when I poach all-out?"

 

[Steady Eddy]

Your first partner was probably using hindsight. He saw that those points were lost and imagined that they would have been won if he would have played them, (but we'll never really know). It's easy to convince yourself in doubles that every single point lost was your partner's fault. This is poisonous thinking in doubles. Watch good doubles teams, they fist bump a lot, even after losing points. Your attitude has to be, a win is a team win, a loss is a team loss, not, well we lost but I played well.

Sometimes your partner at the net will make errors, that's tennis. But you always have his back. Sometimes I have a partner who cannot play the net in any sense. I still want him at the net, because he needs to learn how to do that eventually, so we might as well start now.

 

[heninfan99]

i love a poaching partner except except late in a cross court rally point I'm carefully sculpting like a Martina Hingis wannabe

 

[Steady Eddy]

i love a poaching partner except except late in a cross court rally point I'm carefully sculpting like a Martina Hingis wannabe

I don't know if you're serious, but in a long cross court rally, if your partner suddenly poaches and wins the point, you're disappointed? You say, "Hey! I was working on something."

 

[ptuanminh]

Yeah, nobody has ever told me to stop poaching, but I have had to tell myself to settle down sometimes. There have been games where I am so eager to poach that I either go for shots that I am reaching way to far for, or I reach for it and don't hit it, psyching my partner out.

Either way, I always think there should be calm, clear communication. My doubles partner has missed some really easy put away volleys when he has tried to poach because he went for a full wind-up and tried to smash the ball the smithereens. I never blame him, because anyone can make those mistakes, but I do remind him that we don't have to destroy the ball.

I agree. After making mistakes, we should dissect to see where it went wrong and have adjustment for future points.

Did you say in A's face "See how it goes when I poach all-out?"

Haha, nah, winning 2 sets is a good enough message. everyone on court saw the difference it makes when the net person is more aggressive.

 

[travlerajm]

When I play as the stronger player, my most common frustration is when my weaker partner plays too far from the net. An over-enthusiastic poacher is an extremely rare phenomenon.

 

[ptuanminh]

When I play as the stronger player, my most common frustration is when my weaker partner plays too far from the net. An over-enthusiastic poacher is an extremely rare phenomenon.

Haha thats me. I am probably the overly enthusiastic poacher. Even when everyone else is a better player than me, i feel i have to be at the net to make them uncomfortable. Otherwise they have wide open court to hit to.

 

[Steady Eddy]

You said that they were the better team 'on paper'. In doubles I've noticed that the vibe on the team can outweigh the skills. An inferior team with a positive attitude often beats better players who are tight. If you're worried about how your partner will react to what you do, it hurts your strokes. You need to swing freely and feel that you can trust your gut on shot selection.

 

[sredna42]

there's a breed of player that enjoys doubles because it allows them to always have a scapegoat in their partner for when they lose a point/service game/set/match.

 

[user92626]

When I play as the stronger player, my most common frustration is when my weaker partner plays too far from the net. An over-enthusiastic poacher is an extremely rare phenomenon.

You meant to say "An over-enthusiastic SUCCESSFUL poacher is an extremely rare phenomenon", right?

If you simply meant failing poacher, I got a dime a dozen for you. LOL.

Think about this, if my partner only poaches 3 times in an entire set and only succeeds 1, a paltry 33% rate, he is poaching too much!!! hahaha. 1000 Successes is not enough, 1 failure is too much.

 

[ptuanminh]

You said that they were the better team 'on paper'. In doubles I've noticed that the vibe on the team can outweigh the skills. An inferior team with a positive attitude often beats better players who are tight. If you're worried about how your partner will react to what you do, it hurts your strokes. You need to swing freely and feel that you can trust your gut on shot selection.

I agree to some extent, vibe is important. But sometime you are paired up with someone new (USTA for example), you just need to find a way to win, no matter what. So yeah, swing freely and trust yourself, hoping your partner does their job...those are all good points.

You meant to say "An over-enthusiastic SUCCESSFUL poacher is an extremely rare phenomenon", right?

If you simply meant failing poacher, I got a dime a dozen for you. LOL.

Think about this, if my partner only poaches 3 times in an entire set and only succeeds 1, a paltry 33% rate, he is poaching too much!!! hahaha. 1000 Successes is not enough, 1 failure is too much.

Actually 30% is not that bad. Here's my interpretation:
Lets say you play 3 points, and your chance of winning 1 point is 50% (equal level). So your expected winning is: 0.5*3 = 1.5 points.
Your partner succeed 33% rate, so expected winning is 1 point. The difference is only 0.5 point.
Then you can account for other factor such as: your partner can improve the rate, 1 point 2 points here and there.
in addition, the mental pressure on your opponents is also considerable. They know there's someone at the net ready to poach.

 

[user92626]

there's a breed of player that enjoys doubles because it allows them to always have a scapegoat in their partner for when they lose a point/service game/set/match.

yeah, there certainly seems a breed of that that exists, but then 98% of rec players out there enjoy doubles though. I suspect almost all of them blame part or all of loss on partners but they just keep quiet.

I know this because I know a guy who seems nicest and would complain that I and others blame him for losses in the past but after getting to know him better, talking at lunchtime he always seems to have an excuse or reason, explanation for his loss and it's never his incompetence.

 

[therecanbeonlyone]

You describe A as a singles player, which is exactly what he sounds like. I applaud you for being aggressive at the net.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Player A sounds like a bit of a doosch...

 

[user92626]

I agree to some extent, vibe is important. But sometime you are paired up with someone new (USTA for example), you just need to find a way to win, no matter what. So yeah, swing freely and trust yourself, hoping your partner does their job...those are all good points.

Actually 30% is not that bad. Here's my interpretation:
Lets say you play 3 points, and your chance of winning 1 point is 50% (equal level). So your expected winning is: 0.5*3 = 1.5 points.
Your partner succeed 33% rate, so expected winning is 1 point. The difference is only 0.5 point.
Then you can account for other factor such as: your partner can improve the rate, 1 point 2 points here and there.
in addition, the mental pressure on your opponents is also considerable. They know there's someone at the net ready to poach.

Let's assume I understood your math (I don't ) and go with it, your logics:

So your chance of winning is 50%, your partner success rate is 33%. Together, the latter being smaller will drag down the total chance of winning. You guys now have less than 50% chance.

In short, you would always want a partner who adds value to the partnership. Not take away or drag down.

 

[ptuanminh]

Let's assume I understood your math (I don't ) and go with it, your logics:

So your chance of winning is 50%, your partner success rate is 33%. Together, the latter being smaller will drag down the total chance of winning. You guys now have less than 50% chance.

In short, you would always want a partner who adds value to the partnership. Not take away or drag down.

Yes you are right on there. It does make it worse.
But then, there are other factors that you can account for, such as, your partner will get better with the poach over time. And the pressure factor on the otherside.
You know that feeling when you are in a crosscourt rally, you know there's the net person that can move around. Sometime you feel the pressure and go for more, and you miss.
I feel i could win quite a few points that way.

 

[user92626]

Yes you are right on there. It does make it worse.
But then, there are other factors that you can account for, such as, your partner will get better with the poach over time. And the pressure factor on the otherside.
You know that feeling when you are in a crosscourt rally, you know there's the net person that can move around. Sometime you feel the pressure and go for more, and you miss.
I feel i could win quite a few points that way.

Yeah, numbers aside, we all play with our own agenda. If you feel like poaching, go for it.

You would probably like to play with me as partner. I am aware of a lot of things but I do encourage my partners to play more. I no longer care what they do, winning or losing. The benefit of not caring outweighs the concerns.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

A bit of a long story. I play a weekly double social league. On my court, we had A: a high level 4.5, finalist in a local 4.5 single tournament, B: 4.0 (me), C: 4.5 but a bit older, D: 4.5 highschool varsity player. First set, we played A + B vs C + D. Right from the beginning, I tried to play very aggressive at the net, moved around nonstop to poach. We got to a 3-1 lead pretty quickly. Then I made a few critical mistakes that made A lost his serving game. I said sorry and thought we can move on to try to win the set. However, A told me loud and clear to stop poaching and let him hit those shots, clear enough so even our opponents can hear it. Fine, i stopped poaching and just did my job when the ball was hit at me. I felt C + D were a lot more relaxed when i was not moving around to pressure them. A+B lost first set 4-6 to C+D. A suggested we switched up. So the next 2 sets, we play B+C vs A+D.
My new partner, B, knew i like to move around and poach, so he told me to do watever i want. I went all out hunting in the next 2 sets. We won 6-2 6-4 against 2 better players (on paper).
Who would tell their double partner to stop poaching?
I love it when my double partner is active at the net. Mistakes are totally ok. If some mistakes are more systematic, then we can discuss, try not to repeat. But not poaching in double is really silly.

He didn't say anything when you guys got out to a 3-1 lead; if you were taking "his" balls, he should have complained about it then. The fact that he waited until you missed means he's a wishful thinking doubles player: he only wants you to poach when you win the point. He's not playing the odds. If you were my partner, I'd encourage you to stay active.

The tougher scenario is what if you poach and miss early on: if I know my partner is a good net player, I'll encourage him to keep it up; it was the right play. Now, if we get hammered the 1st set and he's still missing, I'll suggest changing strategy.

But if I don't know my partner, it's tough to tell whether he's just a bit off or he is more active than he should be. I tend to err on the side of giving my partner more leeway.

In any case, A is thinking like a singles player; he's missing the bigger picture.

 

[ptuanminh]

He didn't say anything when you guys got out to a 3-1 lead; if you were taking "his" balls, he should have complained about it then. The fact that he waited until you missed means he's a wishful thinking doubles player: he only wants you to poach when you win the point. He's not playing the odds. If you were my partner, I'd encourage you to stay active.

The tougher scenario is what if you poach and miss early on: if I know my partner is a good net player, I'll encourage him to keep it up; it was the right play. Now, if we get hammered the 1st set and he's still missing, I'll suggest changing strategy.

But if I don't know my partner, it's tough to tell whether he's just a bit off or he is more active than he should be. I tend to err on the side of giving my partner more leeway.

In any case, A is thinking like a singles player; he's missing the bigger picture.

You are totally right. His style of playing is very single like, big serve and big FH to the BH wing, until he get a short ball or easy return, then approach and finish at the net. Of course its still very effective. But having 2 players and play like single is not fun double playing at all.

 

[Flootoo]

maybe you weren't fully warmed up in that first set?
You're right about poaching. If you don't poach, and settle into a crosscourt battle, the other team will spot that pattern and poach for sure.