When Your Doubles Partner Makes a Bad Line Call

I want to focus on what the opposing team sees when one partner overrules the other.

There is a lady in our league who is as blind as a bat. I have never seen anyone make so many blatantly awful line calls. I honestly do not think she is purposely cheating. I think she doesn't see or concentrate well and kind of assumes balls are out.

I never partner with her -- I am always the opponent. You know what? Her partners reverse her, often several times in a match. It's the same thing every time. Ball hits smack on the baseline, this lady calls it out, her opponent walks over to her, a discussion ensures, partner then gives us the signal for good. This lady stands there, looking bewildered.

I have complete and total respect for this lady's partners. I can give you their names. They have integrity. If they ever wanted to join one of my teams or partner with me, I would be delighted to have them.

Had they stood by and let the hooking go unchecked, I would think it reflected poorly on them and would remember it.
 
Given this somewhat unusual situation I agree with you completely. My guess is though, that somewhere north of 95% of call disagreements are of a completely different stripe. Namely that the original line caller likely has 1) decent eyesight, 2) may be partially motivated by winning a point, 3) does not have a reputation for honesty & blindness, 4) hardly ever has line calls challenged.
 
leroy_sunset said:
The other day I called a serve out. The server thought otherwise and said something. I reiterated "out." He walked up to the net and said, "it looked in to me." I replied once again, "I think it was out."

He jumped all over that. "You 'think?' If you're not sure, then the ball was in!"

For Christ's sake, I SAID OUT. I reverse calls not infrequently when I or my partner is wrong. I don't hook. The ball was out, give it a rest.
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Minor detail here but if you are sure it was out, don't say you "think" it was out. Saying "I think" implies that you are not sure. The code says that if you are not sure (not 100% sure that you saw the ball out/in) you should give you opponent a benefit of a doubt.


Not saying you're hooking but it's one of those little language things that opponents will pick on during competitive play.
 
About a year ago I had a similar situation in an indoor doubles match. It was an important point in a tiebreaker, I hit a topspin lob that caught the line. The person that chased it and couldn't get to it slammed his racquet into the curtain behind the court. His partner then called "out". I said to the curtain slammer, "it looked like you thought it was in". He then said he didn't get a good look at it as he was staring down at his shoes. I let it go as it was just a recreational match.
 
I'm honestly a little confused by people who seem so sure that they're opponents are hooking them on balls that they say are literally landing on the far baseline. Really? You're that sure that it was on the line, from the other side of the court on a line perpendicular to your line of view?

I don't usually question a call (especially baseline call) unless I'm pretty sure it was actually inside the line. If my first reaction is that it caught the baseline, but it is called out, I just move on, as I can't really be that sure on that line at all from where I am, and I generally like to assume that people are playing fair and honest than the alternative (which is in my experience true most of the time).

Anyways, back to the thread, Teflon Tom's position is ridiculous, but the chances that he sees or admits this at any point are pretty much nil, so whatever.
 
sundaypunch said:
About a year ago I had a similar situation in an indoor doubles match. It was an important point in a tiebreaker, I hit a topspin lob that caught the line. The person that chased it and couldn't get to it slammed his racquet into the curtain behind the court. His partner then called "out". I said to the curtain slammer, "it looked like you thought it was in". He then said he didn't get a good look at it as he was staring down at his shoes. I let it go as it was just a recreational match.
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Yep. I recently had a lady make the sign for good (palm down). Then her partner called it out. I said, "You signaled good, your partner called it out, that's our point." She said, "No, I'm not sure it was good, I was just assuming my partner would call it good, but she didn't, so I'm going with her call."

Good lord.
 
Cindysphinx said:
Yep. I recently had a lady make the sign for good (palm down). Then her partner called it out. I said, "You signaled good, your partner called it out, that's our point." She said, "No, I'm not sure it was good, I was just assuming my partner would call it good, but she didn't, so I'm going with her call."

Good lord.
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That belongs in the Cheater thread, not the Disagreement thread.
 
Cindysphinx said:
Yep. I recently had a lady make the sign for good (palm down). Then her partner called it out. I said, "You signaled good, your partner called it out, that's our point." She said, "No, I'm not sure it was good, I was just assuming my partner would call it good, but she didn't, so I'm going with her call."

Good lord.
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Obviously they had lots of team solidarity! Teflon would approve.
 
My captain often puts me with older players and I always overrule calls because these guys are freaking blind!!!

drives me crazy.


and also the longer the match/more tired they get the worse the calls get.

like I get it your old tired but making this match last longer with bad calls isn't helping anyone.
 
LuckyR said:
That belongs in the Cheater thread, not the Disagreement thread.
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Why do you suppose this sort of thing happens?

I mean, I straight up called her on it. She thus knew that she was caught in the act of calling that ball good. We both knew the rules about what happens with a changed call or partner disagreement ('cause I told her the rule, and this is not her first rodeo).

Yet for some reason she insisted on not surrendering the point.

How come folks don't just say to themselves, "Oh, man. Busted. I've run out of arguments, there's nowhere to hide. I have been thoroughly nailed. I have to surrender."
 
TeflonTom said:
kids sports aint real sports

u dont have 2 support ur partner cheating but u dont burn him on court. his decisions are ur decisions when u are competing, that is part and parcel of bein a team member. u deal with that stuff in the locker room
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Not sure if serious




Or seriously dumb
 
jonnythan said:
ITT: TeflonTom cares more about winning than the integrity of the game and expects everyone to play the same way he does.

No one on my team plays that way, and I don't play that way.
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Just a couple of days ago you and I were absolutely flamed for applying a rule in a match (caught ball). A rule that is clear and almost never violated in league matches.

Teflon here was one of the biggest arsonists ... claiming his sportsmanship was his best attribute and that he would never violate the spirit of the rules. Apparently now we know what that means.

Apply rules arbitrarily and in a manner that will make you seem like a player of integrity.
 
JRstriker12 said:
Minor detail here but if you are sure it was out, don't say you "think" it was out. Saying "I think" implies that you are not sure. The code says that if you are not sure (not 100% sure that you saw the ball out/in) you should give you opponent a benefit of a doubt.


Not saying you're hooking but it's one of those little language things that opponents will pick on during competitive play.
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Mmmm hmm. I said "out" twice. The third time I said "think," rather than "believe." Lesson learned.

But seriously, the guy needed to just let it go. He made some pretty bad calls on his own side and I just shrugged them off. Well, except for the clear ace that he called out, and his own partner overruled him on.
 
dizzlmcwizzl said:
Just a couple of days ago you and I were absolutely flamed for applying a rule in a match (caught ball). A rule that is clear and almost never violated in league matches.

Teflon here was one of the biggest arsonists ... claiming his sportsmanship was his best attribute and that he would never violate the spirit of the rules. Apparently now we know what that means.

Apply rules arbitrarily and in a manner that will make you seem like a player of integrity.
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dood, how does not overruling my partner on close calls make me seem like a player of integrity?

it is in fact the opposite. if my partner hooks, my team hooks. i look bad. the easy way out is 2 overrule him on court, distance myself from him, say 'he cheats but i got no part in it'. i look good 2 the opposition n he looks like the bad guy

its harder 2 stand by n say nothin when ur partner is cheatin, and challenge him in private where u get no cred from the opposition for it

but, its the right thing 2 do. team discipline is paramount, particularly if u are playin college level etc. - u cannot have a falling out on court
 
TeflonTom said:
dood, how does not overruling my partner on close calls make me seem like a player of integrity?

it is in fact the opposite. if my partner hooks, my team hooks. i look bad. the easy way out is 2 overrule him on court, distance myself from him, say 'he cheats but i got no part in it'. i look good 2 the opposition n he looks like the bad guy

its harder 2 stand by n say nothin when ur partner is cheatin, and challenge him in private where u get no cred from the opposition for it

but, its the right thing 2 do. team discipline is paramount, particularly if u are playin college level etc. - u cannot have a falling out on court
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i c good 2 know ur cheatin ur opponents is all 4 the right reasons brah u deserve mad props 4 that
 
OrangePower said:
i c good 2 know ur cheatin ur opponents is all 4 the right reasons brah u deserve mad props 4 that
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see, this is the problem with tennis players. this thread is about doubles, n everyone is talkin about 'me' and 'him'. everyone is thinkin about themselves n how they look

ur a team. its 'us'. if u cant handle bein jointly responsible 4 the decisions of ur partner, play singles
 
TeflonTom said:
see, this is the problem with tennis players. this thread is about doubles, n everyone is talkin about 'me' and 'him'. everyone is thinkin about themselves n how they look

ur a team. its 'us'. if u cant handle bein jointly responsible 4 the decisions of ur partner, play singles
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Exactly brah u hit the nail on the head... if ur partner is cheatin and u do not speak up u r jointly responsible and u r equally a cheat... glad u agree
 
OrangePower said:
Exactly brah u hit the nail on the head... if ur partner is cheatin and u do not speak up u r jointly responsible and u r equally a cheat... glad u agree
Click to expand...

Please, OrangePower, I beg of you. I enjoy your posts. I like to read them and respond to them, as they are some of the most thoughtful posts around. I won't be able to understand you if you speak gibberish too. :(
 
OrangePower said:
Exactly brah u hit the nail on the head... if ur partner is cheatin and u do not speak up u r jointly responsible and u r equally a cheat... glad u agree
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jointly responsible yes. equally a cheat? depends on ur pov. if ur ethically precluded from breakin with ur teammate mid match then u dont have much choice in the matter. hard 2 call someone a cheat over somethin they dont have any choice over

ppl in this thread have a lack o conceptual understandin about the responsibilities o members o a team. i dont tolerate cheatin, but i exercise that lack o tolerance within the team structure

u and others clearly cannot get past the idea o urselves as independent agents on the tennis court, even durin dubz. me, i regard that as a fundamental error in ur frame o reference
 
TeflonTom said:
jointly responsible yes. equally a cheat? depends on ur pov. if ur ethically precluded from breakin with ur teammate mid match then u dont have much choice in the matter. hard 2 call someone a cheat over somethin they dont have any choice over

ppl in this thread have a lack o conceptual understandin about the responsibilities o members o a team. i dont tolerate cheatin, but i exercise that lack o tolerance within the team structure

u and others clearly cannot get past the idea o urselves as independent agents on the tennis court, even durin dubz. me, i regard that as a fundamental error in ur frame o reference
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accomplice
 
beernutz said:
I think it is interesting that there are so many people who haven't put teflon in their ignore list yet. I have a feeling he'll be dropped into a few more after this thread though.
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Thanks for letting me know this "Ignore" option existed, I wasn't aware. Very useful!
 
dcdoorknob said:
I'm honestly a little confused by people who seem so sure that they're opponents are hooking them on balls that they say are literally landing on the far baseline. Really? You're that sure that it was on the line, from the other side of the court on a line perpendicular to your line of view?

I don't usually question a call (especially baseline call) unless I'm pretty sure it was actually inside the line. If my first reaction is that it caught the baseline, but it is called out, I just move on, as I can't really be that sure on that line at all from where I am, and I generally like to assume that people are playing fair and honest than the alternative (which is in my experience true most of the time).
Click to expand...

The point of the story is that the person that chased the lob clearly thought it was "in", hence the slamming of the racquet into the curtain. What I thought should have been a non-issue when this happens.
 
Everyone makes the odd wrong call even if they have the best intentions.

A wrong call doesn't necessarily mean someone was attempting to cheat. If it comes from your own partner and you are certain they are wrong a simple "it looked good *partners name*" audible to everyone on court is usually the way to handle it without anyone getting their knickers in a twist. Baseline calls by players who're right there trying to track the ball, move and swing at it are amongst the hardest to call. Everyone else on the court probably has a better view of them.

I tend to think these things usually even themselves out. If it's obvious one person is calling every close ball out then maybe you could usurp their mojo by saying 'nice shot' as soon as you think they're calling something out. In the least it'll mean the discussion is started without people feeling like someone is a habitual call hooker.

I had a situation recently in a serious doubles match where the opponents clearly thought they were the big guns out there - so much so that basically every serve they hit which was even close they just started walking to the other side and then acted surprised when I or my partner repeated the already obvious call again. After the first half dozen instances when we were all near the net I just said "look, we're not hooking you on calls that we know of. When you walk across or question basically every call it says to us that you think we're hooking you. If you think that, just say it outright please and at least we'll know what we're dealing with."

The guy who'd done it most was cool with that - he took the hint. It is possible to play fierce tennis without being so combative about every line call. With four people on the court there's generally at least two people who have a good view on every shot.
 
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Cindysphinx said:
Yep. I recently had a lady make the sign for good (palm down). Then her partner called it out. I said, "You signaled good, your partner called it out, that's our point." She said, "No, I'm not sure it was good, I was just assuming my partner would call it good, but she didn't, so I'm going with her call."

Good lord.
Click to expand...

I think that some people just don't get it. I once had someone in a flex-league stop one of my groundstrokes and call it out. The ball was at least 2-3 inches short of the baseline. After they called it out they said, "oops, that was actually in. Let's replay the point". Gotta love the flex-league.
 
tenniscasey said:
Thanks for letting me know this "Ignore" option existed, I wasn't aware. Very useful!
Click to expand...


Hmmmm, in certain threads the "Ignore" button keeps you from understanding how other people in the tennis world may think.
Is that a good thing, probably not.
 
TeflonTom said:
jointly responsible yes. equally a cheat? depends on ur pov. if ur ethically precluded from breakin with ur teammate mid match then u dont have much choice in the matter. hard 2 call someone a cheat over somethin they dont have any choice over

ppl in this thread have a lack o conceptual understandin about the responsibilities o members o a team. i dont tolerate cheatin, but i exercise that lack o tolerance within the team structure

u and others clearly cannot get past the idea o urselves as independent agents on the tennis court, even durin dubz. me, i regard that as a fundamental error in ur frame o reference
Click to expand...
Yes, you are a doubles team. You work together to win points. You serve, your partner poaches. Your partner returns at your opponents' feet, you cut off the ball at the net. You work out strategy together. You also work together to make line calls. Your partner is moving, changing directions and not in the best position to make a line call, so makes a mistake. You correct him. He thanks you. You'd want him to do the same for you. As a team you've gotten the call right. This is just part of tennis. It's not how you portray it: like some kind of airing dirty laundry in public, embarrassing one another or otherwise not supporting each other. Correcting calls is actually supporting one another to ensure the game is fair - and that's your team's responsibility.
 
tennistim said:
Happened to me last night. My partner called a ball out that was in. It was a big point in a tie-breaker and I wish I had said something straight away. In fact nobody said anything, but I think we all knew that it was in. It threw my concentration and we lost the tie-break.

Then in the next set the opposition got revenge by calling out some of my serves that were in.

Really ruins the spirit of the game when this happens.

I am just trying to figure out how to avoid this happening again. I think I need to overrule my partners bad calls straight away - no discussion. Otherwise it creates a much bigger problem....
Click to expand...

if you see it differently, correct call, apologize, move on discuss afterwards
 
Beacon Hill said:
You also work together to make line calls. Your partner is moving, changing directions and not in the best position to make a line call, so makes a mistake. You correct him. He thanks you. You'd want him to do the same for you.
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read the thread brah. we're talkin about when ur partner is deliberately hookin, not when he makes a mistake

if he made a mistake, sure i'd tell him so he could correct his call
 
tenniscasey said:
I agree. My use of the function is limited.
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Me too. Why would anyone put TeflonTroll on ignore? Who else in the world is going to argue that they have to let their partner continue to cheat for the integrity of the game? LOL.
 
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im a free thinker

problem is ppl here have no critical thinkin skills 2 allow them 2 process conflictin value systems. all they understand is rules

if usta doesnt tell em 2 do somethin they get confused n crap their pants
 
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So Tom, what do you say about a 15-year pro hockey player correcting a partner's line call? No sense of team?
 
Wow, this thread has "taken on a life of it's own".

A few questions we need to ask are what we would actually do in a match vs what the USTA rule book states.

In an actual match let's say USTA league ( which I never play, but regardless). On a close call, if my partner had a better look at the ball, and calls it out, but if it looks to me like it may have caught the line. I am going to zip it! Yea, I know what the USTA rule book states, but this is an actual point, since the ball very well could have been out, too. My partner gets the benefit of the doubt. The USTA rule book states that if you see the ball in, you need to consult privately with your partner and he should concede the point. The second you say, you "thought it was in or believe the ball was in", you may as well just concede the point if you strictly follow the USTA code book. Nah, not on a close call, that could have gone either way. Again it's actual play vs what the rules say. I would stick by my partner.

A cheater now that's an entirely different story, if thru the course of the match, I see blatant hooking, I would probably just walk off the court. I may be despised by my team or they may respect some integrity, "it is what it is".
 
TennisDawg said:
In an actual match let's say USTA league ( which I never play, but regardless). On a close call, if my partner had a better look at the ball, and calls it out, but if it looks to me like it may have caught the line. I am going to zip it! Yea, I know what the USTA rule book states, but this is an actual point, since the ball very well could have been out, too. My partner gets the benefit of the doubt. The USTA rule book states that if you see the ball in, you need to consult privately with your partner and he should concede the point. The second you say, you "thought it was in or believe the ball was in", you may as well just concede the point if you strictly follow the USTA code book. Nah, not on a close call, that could have gone either way. Again it's actual play vs what the rules say. I would stick by my partner.
Click to expand...

Nobody's arguing about close calls, we all know the principles you outlined here. This thread is about blatant and obvious hooking.
 
TeflonTom said:
id say he probably plays rec tennis n doesnt really give a crap

u wouldnt see him throwing his teammates under the bus on the rink
Click to expand...

Maybe that's because hockey games have refs and don't completely rely on a team calling penalties on itself.
 
TennisDawg said:
Wow, this thread has "taken on a life of it's own".

A few questions we need to ask are what we would actually do in a match vs what the USTA rule book states.

In an actual match let's say USTA league ( which I never play, but regardless). On a close call, if my partner had a better look at the ball, and calls it out, but if it looks to me like it may have caught the line. I am going to zip it! Yea, I know what the USTA rule book states, but this is an actual point, since the ball very well could have been out, too. My partner gets the benefit of the doubt. The USTA rule book states that if you see the ball in, you need to consult privately with your partner and he should concede the point. The second you say, you "thought it was in or believe the ball was in", you may as well just concede the point if you strictly follow the USTA code book. Nah, not on a close call, that could have gone either way. Again it's actual play vs what the rules say. I would stick by my partner.
Click to expand...

I do think that the criteria are different for making a call vs. correcting a call.

1) I think a ball is out - I don't make a call, it is GOOD
2) I clearly see the ball out - I call it OUT
3) My partner calls a ball out, but I think it might be good - partner's OUT call stands (they were sure enough to call it)
4) My partner calls a ball out, but I am sure it was good - I concede the point

If I am SURE a ball was good then I owe it to my opponents to give them the point. This has nothing to do with being on a team and nothing to do with cheating. It has everything to do with giving my opponents a point they earned and treating them the way I'd expect to be treated.
 
TeflonTom said:
arbitrary distinction brah. cheatin's cheatin.
Click to expand...

That's the point. You are literally cheating when you see a ball in and don't correct your partner when he calls it out.

It literally, straight up makes you a lying cheater. It's honorable and correct and sportsmanlike to say "no, it's in." Otherwise... you are a lying cheater.
 
jonnythan said:
That's the point. You are literally cheating when you see a ball in and don't correct your partner when he calls it out.

It literally, straight up makes you a lying cheater. It's honorable and correct and sportsmanlike to say "no, it's in." Otherwise... you are a lying cheater.
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again, only if u have no concept of what it means 2 be part of a team

ask ur pro hockey friend if he considers himself a cheater for not ratting out a teammate who fouled without the referee seeing it
 
J_R_B said:
Me too. Why would anyone put TeflonTroll on ignore? Who else in the world is going to argue that they have to let their partner continue to cheat for the integrity of the game? LOL.
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I have him on ignore because I tired of trying to interpret the 11-yr-old gurl txt writin stile. I don't so much care that I disagree with him, but I don't care to converse in txt on a message board.

I can't imagine putting anyone else here on my list.
 
TeflonTom said:
read the thread brah. we're talkin about when ur partner is deliberately hookin, not when he makes a mistake

if he made a mistake, sure i'd tell him so he could correct his call
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Maybe you've made the thread about that, but others have have discussed the situation in a broader sense. You don't owe your partner solidarity if you know he is cheating. Correct his call or, if the circumstances warrant it, walk off the court. Your concept of what it means to be a teammate is a way of thinking that causes a lot of problems in the world.
 
TeflonTom said:
again, only if u have no concept of what it means 2 be part of a team

ask ur pro hockey friend if he considers himself a cheater for not ratting out a teammate who fouled without the referee seeing it
Click to expand...

No, it's cheating. If your partner makes an obviously bad line call and you don't correct it, it's cheating.

It makes you a cheat and a liar. End of story. You might be a cheat and a liar who is loyal to your cheating and lying partner, but you are a cheat and a liar.
 
jonnythan said:
No, it's cheating. If your partner makes an obviously bad line call and you don't correct it, it's cheating.

It makes you a cheat and a liar. End of story. You might be a cheat and a liar who is loyal to your cheating and lying partner, but you are a cheat and a liar.
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that is one opinion, ignorant and myopic tho it is. but given the source i am not surprised

i notice u have quietly avoided addressin my observation about ur friend:

cogdis+funny9uy.jpg
 
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You didn't observe anything about anyone.

You've clearly stated that if your partner cheats you will cover for him. That makes you a cheater, not a good teammate.

Furthermore, you've stated that if your partner makes a mistake, you will cover for his mistake by cheating. That also makes you a cheater, not a good teammate.

That's crazy, don't you think? If your partner makes a mistake you will respond not by correcting the mistake, but by cheating.
 
i have stated that if my partner makes a mistake, i will inform him of it and encourage him 2 correct it

i have stated that if my partner cheats, i will not tolerate it. however, i will resolve the matter in a manner that does not violate my duty as a member of a team not to break rank mid match

being a member of a team comes with the understandin that u are no longer an independent agent. teams support each other and resolve their differences behind closed doors. the very fact u are a team member morally precludes u from speakin up

ur friend the pro hockey player understands this. if a teammate fouls and gets away with it he might give him a talkin to after the game, but he won't rat him out on the ice
 
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