When Your Doubles Partner Makes a Bad Line Call

[jonnythan]

So if your partner cheats, and doesn't want to stop cheating mid-match, you will help him cheat for the duration of the match and then not play with him again?

So you'll stand by your cheating partner by cheating for the duration of a match and then dump him after the match?

 

[TeflonTom]

sigh. its not about helpin him cheat. if u are a good team player u dont have a choice in the matter. u r not an independent agent. u r morally precluded from ratting him out

again, ask ur pro hockey player friend about ratting out teammates on the ice for offences they get away with

ur thinkin is remarkably limited to ur own little tightly defined frame of reference

 

[jonnythan]

You're directly saying that if your partner cheats during a match, you will cover it up for the duration of the match.

Correct?

 

[TeflonTom]

its like trying to explain algebra to a gorilla

 

[jonnythan]

its like trying to explain algebra to a gorilla

Are you denying that you'll cheat for the duration of a match rather than correct your partner, on the occasion that your partner cheats?

 

[dcdoorknob]

its like trying to explain algebra to a gorilla

The arrogance is striking.

 

[TeflonTom]

The arrogance is striking.

dont blame him, its not his fault he's not capable of free thinkin. i blame our schools system

 

[Mauvaise]

dont blame him, its not his fault he's not capable of free thinkin. i blame our schools system

It's not "free thinking" to blatantly cheat for an entire match rather than keep your side of the court honest out of some misguided sense of team loyalty.

 

[dcdoorknob]

dont blame him, its not his fault he's not capable of free thinkin. i blame our schools system

I feel you brah. The only reason anyone ever disagrees with me is because they are intellectually incapable too, as my logic is also infallible in every situation.

 

[TeflonTom]

callin it cheatin is subjective, as i have explained. it depends on your frame o reference vis a vis values

and it aint team loyalty, its team responsibility

 

[TeflonTom]

I feel you brah. The only reason anyone ever disagrees with me is because they are intellectually incapable too, as my logic is also infallible in every situation.

i am not sayin that ppl need 2 agree with me. i am sayin that my position is consistent with a particular frame of reference vis a vis morality/ethics/sportsmanshi/etc

not bein able to conceive of the existence of a frame of reference outside of ur own is limited thinkin

 

[jonnythan]

Your position is consistent with covering up cheating for the duration of a match.

 

[TeflonTom]

Your position is consistent with covering up cheating for the duration of a match.

uve already adequately demonstrated ur ignorance, u dont have 2 keep postin

as amusin as it is

 

[dcdoorknob]

i am not sayin that ppl need 2 agree with me. i am sayin that my position is consistent with a particular frame of reference vis a vis morality/ethics/sportsmanshi/etc

not bein able to conceive of the existence of a frame of reference outside of ur own is limited thinkin

For sure, it is a tough life when everyone is so much more limited in their thinking than you.

 

[Mauvaise]

callin it cheatin is subjective,

No, it is not. It is blatantly cheating to knowingly back your partner up when he hooks the other team. There is nothing subjective about it.

 

[jonnythan]

uve already adequately demonstrated ur ignorance, u dont have 2 keep postin

as amusin as it is

I might be ignorant, but at least I am unwilling to cheat. You are more than happy to cheat all match long as long as your partner does first.

In fact, I'm starting to think you actually hope your partner cheats because it gives you free license to cheat yourself because it's "standing behind your cheating partner."

 

[kylebarendrick]

Helping your partner out with a call when they make a mistake is not breaking ranks.

Knowingly taking a point that the other team earned fair and square... I believe there is a word for that.

 

[TennisDawg]

Nobody's arguing about close calls, we all know the principles you outlined here. This thread is about blatant and obvious hooking.

tenniscasey, you left out the rest of my post! See below in bold italics, that's the rest of my post.

A cheater now that's an entirely different story, if thru the course of the match, I see blatant hooking, I would probably just walk off the court. I may be despised by my team or they may respect some integrity, "it is what it is".



I have no problem walking off the court as I've not had good experiences playing USTA leagues. If I were to try USTA doubles again, it would be a tournament where I can pick my partner. A partner that I compete well with and a partner that doesn't cheat. In USTA leagues you have captains that are likely to mismatch the doubles teams or stick you with a cheating partner or some lightweight that has to appease his opponents and be fickle with line calls.. I would have no problem walking off the court if I see for "blatant and obvious" hooking by my partner.

 

[Beacon Hill]

Would Mr. I-Took-An-Intro-Logic-Class-So-I'll-Be-A-Pretentious-Snot also look the other way if his partner put broken glass on his opponents' side of the court or poisoned their drinking water? Is this, too, consistent with a frame of reference that the rest of us are just not smart enough to understand?

 

[TeflonTom]

wow, the butthurt is strong with this one

obv. illegal activities are a completely different kettle o crustaceans. dont be a silly billy

 

[Steady Eddy]

Nobody ever has any doubt about a where a ball landed? Like no one ever thinks, "I'm 40% sure it was out, 60% sure it was in, so if my partner was confident enough to call it out, that's good enough."

I think you should only speak up if you're over 95% sure that the ball was good.

Everybody here thinks it's black and white, that you positively KNOW what every shot was.

 

[jonnythan]

No, no one is saying that. We're just talking about the case where you're sure your partner is wrong.

 

[tenniscasey]

tenniscasey, you left out the rest of my post! See below in bold italics, that's the rest of my post.

A cheater now that's an entirely different story, if thru the course of the match, I see blatant hooking, I would probably just walk off the court. I may be despised by my team or they may respect some integrity, "it is what it is".



I have no problem walking off the court as I've not had good experiences playing USTA leagues. If I were to try USTA doubles again, it would be a tournament where I can pick my partner. A partner that I compete well with and a partner that doesn't cheat. In USTA leagues you have captains that are likely to mismatch the doubles teams or stick you with a cheating partner or some lightweight that has to appease his opponents and be fickle with line calls.. I would have no problem walking off the court if I see for "blatant and obvious" hooking by my partner.

Sorry TennisDawg, I didn't mean to misrepresent your post. Thanks for clarifying.

Some visitors to this thread don't seem to understand that the only types of calls at issue here are the ones where you know your partner is wrong. (See Steady Eddy's post above.) The "what about close calls!" thing people keep bringing up is just a distracting strawman. I think (and hope) we'd all agree that you give your partner the benefit of the doubt unless the hook is obvious.

I've never played in a doubles-required league; the only doubles I play are with family and friends. It'd be my nightmare to be matched with an ultra-competitive cheater in a competitive scenario. I hope I'd be willing to speak up if my partner were hooking in that context, but I can see why it would be hard or intimidating for everyone to do that in real life if the circumstances don't encourage it.

 

[tennis tom]

Normally I'd overrule a rec "partner" if I was sure. Yesterday a serve hit smack on the line and my "appointed, not by me, partner" called it out. I looked at our opponent's and gave a shrug, since I'm sure they thought it was good. This was near the end of a second set, my "partner" and I were about to lose 4-6, 4-6. On the next serve to me, I was going to give a make-up point to them by hitting into the net or the fence, but the server double-faulted to me so I couldn't help out to even the score. Next serve to me and I obviously tanked the shot into the net giving them the game.

My "partner" had abdicated making any line calls for the entire match leaving it to me--except for that one serve on the line that he loudly proclaimed "OUT", of the blue. I didn't feel like making an issue out of this so late into a match that was no longer tennis. My partner doesn't possess a shot to save his life and bases his whole game on dashing and darting about with no rhyme or reason attempting to knock down floaters. Yesterday he missed 98 out of 100. He has no clue as to doubles positioning or strategy and appropriately pulled a leg muscle in the last game. He wanted to play on so I told him to just stand on the service line, (where he belongs anyway). He normally plays tight to the net and runs like a mad man back to the baseline in futile attempts to reach the lobs that are obviously coming. Of course he's always pulling leg muscles with this stupid strategy. So, in this case, he self punished for his lousy play, and call(s).

 

[leroy_sunset]

I might be ignorant, but at least I am unwilling to cheat. You are more than happy to cheat all match long as long as your partner does first.

In fact, I'm starting to think you actually hope your partner cheats because it gives you free license to cheat yourself because it's "standing behind your cheating partner."

Your hostility level is a little out of place, bro. Go hit up the AR-15 forums or something.

Sometimes partners make bad calls. I tend to overrule, but this isn't always an option. Teflon is saying that in the middle of a league match, during important points that can make or break the set, some people are swayed in line calls by their own self-interest. Rather than argue with your partner, pi*ss them off, tank the match, and alienate your team, just stay silent and hit the next one into the net.

Are you seriously saying that you've never made an out call, then internally questioned yourself, but didn't overrule your previous call? Not once? I'd say the flaming is uncalled for. People make mistakes. Partners make mistakes. Sometimes you gotta roll with it.

 

[jonnythan]

Teflon is saying that in the middle of a league match, during important points that can make or break the set, some people are swayed in line calls by their own self-interest. Rather than argue with your partner, pi*ss them off, tank the match, and alienate your team, just stay silent and hit the next one into the net.

No, he's saying he would never, in any circumstances, ever ever ever overrule his partner's out call, no matter where it occurred in the match or how obvious it was.

 

[leroy_sunset]

No, he's saying he would never, in any circumstances, ever ever ever overrule his partner's out call, no matter where it occurred in the match or how obvious it was.

I just want to clear this up. Here's where you started to flame, translated for those over the age of 50:

If your partner hooks, find a new partner. But you don't ever, ever overrule your partner. You don't break solidarity mid-match.

Your response:

I disagree. I'd want someone to overrule me and I'd expect my partner to want to be overruled.

Teflon:

If your partner is honestly mistaken, then tell him and let him correct his own call. If he is deliberately hooking, you don't break rank. You tell him in private it's not acceptable, and if he doesn't stop hooking then you simply don't play with him any more.

In this thread: tennis players don't understand team sport

Teflon is saying that the team aspect of the sport dictates that overrules and public arguments are detrimental to the team dynamic. I agree, they can cause major problems.

Jonny, this was your immediate response:

ITT: TeflonTom cares more about winning than the integrity of the game and expects everyone to play the same way he does.

No one on my team plays that way, and I don't play that way.

Instantly, Teflon is a dirty cheater and you're a moral compass? Seriously, get over yourself.

 

[jonnythan]

I just want to clear this up. Here's where you started to flame, translated for those over the age of 50:



Your response:



Teflon:



Teflon is saying that the team aspect of the sport dictates that overrules and public arguments are detrimental to the team dynamic. I agree, they can cause major problems.

Jonny, this was your immediate response:



Instantly, Teflon is a dirty cheater and you're a moral compass? Seriously, get over yourself.

Teflon directly admitted right here that in no circumstances would he overrule his partner in a match, no matter how blatantly the partner cheated:

"If your partner is honestly mistaken, then tell him and let him correct his own call. If he is deliberately hooking, you don't break rank. You tell him in private it's not acceptable, and if he doesn't stop hooking then you simply don't play with him any more."

It's black and white. "If he is deliberately hooking, you don't break rank." Period end of story. Teflon has stated and maintained that no matter how badly his partner cheats, he will go along with it for the duration of the match.

 

[kylebarendrick]

Sorry, but if your partner is deliberately hooking and you go along with them, then you are deliberately hooking also.

 

[leroy_sunset]

It's black and white. "If he is deliberately hooking, you don't break rank." Period end of story. Teflon has stated and maintained that no matter how badly his partner cheats, he will go along with it for the duration of the match.

What I am saying is that you have some sort of macho internet-forum grudge against Teflon and you look like an as*hole, in this thread and others. You maintain that Teflon is definitively a cheater of low moral character because he stated that he wouldn't overrule a cheating teammate in a theoretical situation. I think his position of maintaining team solidarity is valid, even though I wouldn't personally do that. I would net my returns or retire. I would not argue with my own teammate in front of my opponents. Does that make me a cheater?

 

[jonnythan]

Well I have a pretty low opinion of people who publicly declare their willingness to blatantly cheat in sports matches.

 

[Larrysümmers]

if ur partner hooks, find a new partner

but u dont ever, ever overrule ur partner. u dont break solidarity mid match

i agree with this. me and partner will not overrule eachother. we have that trust and understanding. bad calls are apart of the rec game.

 

[OrangePower]

i agree with this. me and partner will not overrule eachother. we have that trust and understanding. bad calls are apart of the rec game.

Yeah, sounds good... trust and understanding... you trust that your partner will only hook obviously on really important points, and he understands that you will keep quiet and not overrule in those situations. Way to go!

Bottom line: As others have already said, if your partner is deliberately cheating your opponents and you go along with it, then you are also equally cheating your opponents. There's just no way around this.

 

[kylebarendrick]

I'll put it another way. If I call a ball "out" (because I was sure it was out) and my partner is sure it is "in", then I would expect them to overrule me. Anything else on their part would be cheating. They aren't disrespecting me, breaking unity, or anything else. They are awarding a point to our opponents that they are convinced the opponents had earned.

 

[leroy_sunset]

I'll put it another way. If I call a ball "out" (because I was sure it was out) and my partner is sure it is "in", then I would expect them to overrule me. Anything else on their part would be cheating. They aren't disrespecting me, breaking unity, or anything else. They are awarding a point to our opponents that they are convinced the opponents had earned.

Earned in what sense? If I hit a winner down the line, but my partner calls the previous shot out, even though I know it's in, I'm supposed to overrule him?

I MUST BE A DIRTY CHEATER BECAUSE I DON'T AGREE WITH THE CODE.

Seriously, you guys are hyperbolizing just a tad.

 

[leroy_sunset]

On top of which, remember we're talking about a hypothetical. Teflon's partner is hooking over and over in a match. Teflon says nothing whatsoever like the spineless, cheating coward you guys say he is. Would the other team just let that happen? Wouldn't they either call for a line judge, walk off the court, or begin retaliating with their own bad calls? I have never, ever seen a team just sit there and be cheated without putting up a fight, ever.

 

[tennistim]

How about this scenario:

An opponent hits a ball down the trams and your partner calls the ball out. You have no idea whether it was in from where you're standing, but the guy who hit was looking down the line from the other court and had the best view of it.

He wasn't happy about the call and makes a passive aggressive comment. However, the call stands.

A few points later he calls out a close ball to get revenge.

How do you deal with this?

 

[Cindysphinx]

If your partner in good faith calls a ball out and you are certain it was in, you are cheating if you do not tell your partner you disagree so she can give the point to the opponent.

That said, if I am standing on a line and am in better position than you are and you overrule me or tell me to give the point to our opponents, I will box your ears. All you people who like to call the far sideline when I am standing right there take notice.

If you are in a bad position, then you cannot be certain a ball was in or out and you should trust that I *did* see it. If I didn't see it, I would ask you.

I swear, most of the time when I see partner disagreement is when somebody is calling a line they shouldn't be calling from a poor position.

 

[LuckyR]

How about this scenario:

An opponent hits a ball down the trams and your partner calls the ball out. You have no idea whether it was in from where you're standing, but the guy who hit was looking down the line from the other court and had the best view of it.

He wasn't happy about the call and makes a passive aggressive comment. However, the call stands.

A few points later he calls out a close ball to get revenge.

How do you deal with this?

You bring up three unrelated issues:

First, there are definitely times when the person who hits the ball has the best view of the call. However, this doesn't matter, they don't get to make the call. Of course you are free to get their opinion if you like, your partner didn't.

Second, the guy who hit the ball should know the preceeding paragraph and shouldn't be an a55 about it, as he did initially.

Lastly, the "cheat back" option is totally justified if you are a victim of repeated cheating, which he was not.

 

[beernutz]

Earned in what sense? If I hit a winner down the line, but my partner calls the previous shot out, even though I know it's in, I'm supposed to overrule him?

I MUST BE A DIRTY CHEATER BECAUSE I DON'T AGREE WITH THE CODE.

Seriously, you guys are hyperbolizing just a tad.

I don't know about dirty, but if you are deliberately not following the code, yeah I'd agree you are a cheater. Rationalize it all you want though if it helps you sleep at night.

 

[Nostradamus]

I don't know about dirty, but if you are deliberately not following the code, yeah I'd agree you are a cheater. Rationalize it all you want though if it helps you sleep at night.

Just don't ever over-rule your partner, no matter who, no matter what happens. People make mistakes and makes desperate calls. It is part of the game. Key is CONSISTANCY. Treat all your doubles partner the same, and don't over-rule.

This works the best. Ignorant people probably have no idea what i am talking about. but Truly this is the best way. Just play on and make your calls honest and let your partner call his lines.

 

[OrangePower]

Lastly, the "cheat back" option is totally justified if you are a victim of repeated cheating, which he was not.

Sorry, could not disagree more. In my opinion there is never justification for cheating back. I will make my opponent very aware that I think he/she is cheating - they need to know that I know. But I'm not going to cheat back - winning a rec match does not mean that much to me.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Just don't ever over-rule your partner, no matter who, no matter what happens. People make mistakes and makes desperate calls. It is part of the game. Key is CONSISTANCY. Treat all your doubles partner the same, and don't over-rule.

This works the best. Ignorant people probably have no idea what i am talking about. but Truly this is the best way. Just play on and make your calls honest and let your partner call his lines.

Seriously . . .

Why do you want to take even one point you didn't earn fair and square?

The people who don't agree with you are not "ignorant." They are just honest.

Ah, well. The great thing about this is that you can't make me take a point to which we are entitled. If I know that you made a mistake, I will simply tell you. If you don't reverse yourself, I will keep talking to you about it. Our opponents will see this discussion and ask what our call is. If you don't Man Up, I will say, "Ah well. We saw it differently, so I guess it's your point."

I will do this as often as it takes to make sure we, as a team, don't take any points we didn't earn.

And then you'll need to find a new partner.

 

[Nostradamus]

Seriously . . .

Why do you want to take even one point you didn't earn fair and square?

The people who don't agree with you are not "ignorant." They are just honest.

Ah, well. The great thing about this is that you can't make me take a point to which we are entitled. If I know that you made a mistake, I will simply tell you. If you don't reverse yourself, I will keep talking to you about it. Our opponents will see this discussion and ask what our call is. If you don't Man Up, I will say, "Ah well. We saw it differently, so I guess it's your point."

I will do this as often as it takes to make sure we, as a team, don't take any points we didn't earn.

And then you'll need to find a new partner.

See what i mean. You have no idea what i meant by Ignorant. You are now talking about what is just or what is honest. I am not talking about that at all.
YOur partner calls a ball out on the Serve by your opponent or side line that is on her side, right next to her. and you think you see it in. You are not supposed to over-rule that. Your partner has much better view. On those lines your partner has what is called " Linesman's view of the line". and you don't.
so you have much better chance of seeing it wrong. so Leave it be. I suppose in Women's game, ball move much slower and could see those little better. but at my level in men's game, i am standing on the service line and see the serve long, i call it out. but to my partner, returning the ball, it will look like it touched the line. due to angle of his vision.

So just let your partner make the call. YOU will be looking for the new partner, not your partner.

 

[Cindysphinx]

See what i mean. You have no idea what i meant by Ignorant. You are now talking about what is just or what is honest. I am not talking about that at all.
YOur partner calls a ball out on the Serve by your opponent or side line that is on her side, right next to her. and you think you see it in. You are not supposed to over-rule that. Your partner has much better view. On those lines your partner has what is called " Linesman's view of the line". and you don't.
so you have much better chance of seeing it wrong. so Leave it be. I suppose in Women's game, ball move much slower and could see those little better. but at my level in men's game, i am standing on the service line and see the serve long, i call it out. but to my partner, returning the ball, it will look like it touched the line. due to angle of his vision.

So just let your partner make the call. YOU will be looking for the new partner, not your partner.

If I understand you correctly, your partner is receiving. The serve is wide, and she calls the serve out. You think it was in. Is that the situation you are describing?

In that situation, I would not overrule my partner if the serve was anywhere close to being out. *My partner is looking down the line and has the better vantage point.* She may have seen space I was not in a position to see. I am not 100% sure she was wrong, so I will not overrule.

Let's change the facts now.

Your partner is receiving and you are standing on the service line and calling the service line. You see the serve hit the back of the service line, but your partner calls it out. What do you do?

In that case, I would overrule my partner (by telling her, "Uh oh. That caught the line, so we have to give them that point. Do you want me to keep calling the service line, or do you want to do it?").

Would you let her out call stand in those circumstances?

 

[Nostradamus]

If I understand you correctly, your partner is receiving. The serve is wide, and she calls the serve out. You think it was in. Is that the situation you are describing?

In that situation, I would not overrule my partner if the serve was anywhere close to being out. *My partner is looking down the line and has the better vantage point.* She may have seen space I was not in a position to see. I am not 100% sure she was wrong, so I will not overrule.

Let's change the facts now.

Your partner is receiving and you are standing on the service line and calling the service line. You see the serve hit the back of the service line, but your partner calls it out. What do you do?

In that case, I would overrule my partner (by telling her, "Uh oh. That caught the line, so we have to give them that point. Do you want me to keep calling the service line, or do you want to do it?").

Would you let her out call stand in those circumstances?

Agree completely. Service line in that case is your call, not your partner who is receiving the serve. You make that call. Your partner should not even attempt to make that call. You call it as you see it.
in 1st case, it is your partner's call.

 

[LuckyR]

Sorry, could not disagree more. In my opinion there is never justification for cheating back. I will make my opponent very aware that I think he/she is cheating - they need to know that I know. But I'm not going to cheat back - winning a rec match does not mean that much to me.

If you play on a smaller court than your opponent, you are cheating yourself.

 

[OrangePower]

If you play on a smaller court than your opponent, you are cheating yourself.

I'm not playing on a smaller court - if by that you mean trying to avoid hitting close to the lines out of fear that the opponent will hook. I am going to play my game the same way. If my opponent hooks I will let them know that I think they are hooking. If they continue to hook, that's their problem, not mine. If I lose as a result, then I lose. It's not like my livelyhood hangs in the balance. YRMV.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Agree completely. Service line in that case is your call, not your partner who is receiving the serve. You make that call. Your partner should not even attempt to make that call. You call it as you see it.
in 1st case, it is your partner's call.

Good. I am glad we have closure: You will overrule your partner when it is appropriate to do so, and nobody is declared "ignorant."

 

[rkelley]

To the original question:

Folks get calls wrong even even with the best of intent. When I played USTA doubles if either of us thought the ball was in we'd call it in, even if we had to overrule the other person. Be gracious, err on the side of giving the other team the point.