Where did all the Servbots go?

Robert F

Hall of Fame
Looking at the Oz draw, I don't really see many guys that I think of as just a big serve.
Yes a lot of these guys can bomb the serve but they have other goods to back it up--Shelton for instance.

Criticism of the late 90's was that tennis was becoming too fast and an Ace fest. So the consipiracy goes tennis was slowed down to encourage rallies, coupled with equipment changes--poly--it has become a returner's game.
Is the Servbot extinct? If so it took a while to eradicate them.

Has the game changed too much to be just a great server?
Has the speed and athletiscm made it harder to serve through the ATP top 100?
Do we need to bring back Servbots to create more competition? If so how?
 
Thank god, was awful when they were just there going deep at slams but had no real game just hitting bomb serves.

2018 Wimbledon almost killed my interest in tennis with Raonic v Isner in the QF and then the hideous SF of Anderson v Isner going to 26-24 in the fifth set.

Sorry to say but I don't miss Karlovic, Raonic, Anderson, Isner and co.
 
Thank god, was awful when they were just there going deep at slams but had no real game just hitting bomb serves.

2018 Wimbledon almost killed my interest in tennis with Raonic v Isner in the QF and then the hideous SF of Anderson v Isner going to 26-24 in the fifth set.

Sorry to say but I don't miss Karlovic, Raonic, Anderson, Isner and co.

You won’t have long to not miss Rao - he is playing Alex de Minaur in round 1 in Australia.
 
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I think string and rac tech changed more things than just increase spin and power. The spin combined with the increased safety with which you can rip topspin shots, the power you can generate on the run made SnV a much less viable strategy. Now servebots have to stay back more frequently or execute the serve+1 (serve plus groundstroke winner) instead. But even for the serve+1 the above problem of rac and string tech allowing returners to get balls back with more interest still applies. Eventually the big server gets forced to get involved in more and more rallies and this is where they crumble.

The racquets and strings did buff the serve, but it also buffed the defenders and passers.
 
Thank god, was awful when they were just there going deep at slams but had no real game just hitting bomb serves.

2018 Wimbledon almost killed my interest in tennis with Raonic v Isner in the QF and then the hideous SF of Anderson v Isner going to 26-24 in the fifth set.

Sorry to say but I don't miss Karlovic, Raonic, Anderson, Isner and co.
Raonic and Anderson aren’t serve bots. They’ve got a lot more to their game than Isner and Karlovic who id consider purer serve bots.
 
I enjoyed the Isner Anderson semifinal. I won't change anything except the finish. I would have loved to see Isner in the final. Servebots get unnecessary hate. Especially as a novelty.
 
Raonic and Anderson aren’t serve bots. They’ve got a lot more to their game than Isner and Karlovic who id consider purer serve bots.
Agreed, but Raonic and Anderson at times had games where there serve would save them. Especially Raonic.
In the top 10, who is belting out serves routinely to dig himself out of holes? Maybe Med?
 
Agreed, but Raonic and Anderson at times had games where there serve would save them. Especially Raonic.
In the top 10, who is belting out serves routinely to dig himself out of holes? Maybe Med?
I have seen him get out of 0-40 holds with excellent serving and multiple aces.
 
Agreed, but Raonic and Anderson at times had games where there serve would save them. Especially Raonic.
In the top 10, who is belting out serves routinely to dig himself out of holes? Maybe Med?
Hurkacz (17% ace rate last year), but he also has more game.
 
Agreed, but Raonic and Anderson at times had games where there serve would save them. Especially Raonic.
In the top 10, who is belting out serves routinely to dig himself out of holes? Maybe Med?
If the definition of a serve bot is someone who can thump serves to get out of bad situations, then Djokovic, Medvedev, Zverev, Shelton, Hurkacz... can all do that. Doesn't make them a "serve bot". I'd consider a serve bot to be someone who has a big serve, but a limited game elsewhere. Karlovic, Isner, Opelka are great examples of this.
 
I'd consider Ben Shelton and Bublik servebots. Now granted, they aren't nearly as horrendous outside of their serves as Ivo was. But they are still servebots in my book.

Shelton is still young. So hopefully, he can improve.
 
Why are the players who master the most important stroke in tennis so objectionable?
The servebots seem to take spot away from non servebots. It looks hardly a fair fight when Isner plays someone under 6. But the players under 6'4" playing with great serve are great.
 
The servebots seem to take spot away from non servebots. It looks hardly a fair fight when Isner plays someone under 6. But the players under 6'4" playing with great serve are great.

Being 6 feet tall (or under) gives you far more advantages in tennis than abnormal height does. Let the 7 feet tall have the serve.
 
Being 6 feet tall (or under) gives you far more advantages in tennis than abnormal height does. Let the 7 feet tall have the serve.
What are the advantages of being under 6' tall? I think there are so many guys over 6' that show court coverage/agiility is not an issue over 6'.
 
If the definition of a serve bot is someone who can thump serves to get out of bad situations, then Djokovic, Medvedev, Zverev, Shelton, Hurkacz... can all do that. Doesn't make them a "serve bot". I'd consider a serve bot to be someone who has a big serve, but a limited game elsewhere. Karlovic, Isner, Opelka are great examples of this.
Agreed.
But there is a differnce about someone who all he does is thump serves to win points for a whole set, vs. a good balance player that ups his serve for a game to dig himself out of a hole.

Guys like Med, Zev, Hurkacz, and ex players like Fed, Kyrgios overlapped with the servbots, but had extra goods.
Servbots just had a hammer and a big screw driver. All the guys we mentioned had a hammer and screw driver for serving, but also could saw you apart with ground strokes, wrench groundies around you if you come to the net and were able to polish off points with gritty sand paper.
 
Looking at the Oz draw, I don't really see many guys that I think of as just a big serve.
Yes a lot of these guys can bomb the serve but they have other goods to back it up--Shelton for instance.

Criticism of the late 90's was that tennis was becoming too fast and an Ace fest. So the consipiracy goes tennis was slowed down to encourage rallies, coupled with equipment changes--poly--it has become a returner's game.
Is the Servbot extinct? If so it took a while to eradicate them.

Has the game changed too much to be just a great server?
Has the speed and athletiscm made it harder to serve through the ATP top 100?
Do we need to bring back Servbots to create more competition? If so how?
Slow courts = no bots. Even Shelton's bombs get returned now.
 
What are the advantages of being under 6' tall? I think there are so many guys over 6' that show court coverage/agiility is not an issue over 6'.

I was saying it's better to be 6 feet or under than abnormally height / 7+.

Point is movement is the most important part of tennis.
 
interesting observation. for starters, the pool of servebots has never been huge...and with opelka, isner and dr ivo all out, that's a big % of the most recent members of the club.

and the comment about slower courts is probably part of it too...if truly all you have is a serve, that advantage is blunted somewhat and you probably won't meet with enough success to make it on to the big stage.

hard to really call any of the game's lethal servers 'bots' these days...milos, kyrgios, bublik, hurcacz, shelton, these are the 'mostly about the serve' names that come to mind, but they've all got pretty decent or better all-around games.

btw, watching shelton's match against daniel yesterday...no doubt he's got not only one of the biggest pure mph serves on tour, but also, one of the more versatile. but honestly, he doesn't seem to be that great at hitting his spots, and doesn't throw in the big heater that often...feel like most of his 1st serves are like 118mph spinners landing somewhere in the middle of the box. Doesn't seem to have that same lethal accuracy that you see from nick when he's on, or bublik, or goran from back in the day, when it was just like: straight down the tee, ace/out wide, ace/out wide again, ace, you know? like, the threat of aces being ever-present, which to me is what servebots are all about.

watching his motion, is it me or does his toss seem a little too much right over his head, and not out to the side just a bit more where you'd think it should be?
 
You won’t have long to not miss Rao - he is playing alex de Minaur in round 1 in Australia.
I think someone told him he still had a PR entry or two left over and he decided on a whim to fly to Aus to collect a cool $120,000 just for showing up. I wouldn’t be surprised if he hasn't even touched a racket since retiring in august.
 
I think someone told him he still had a PR entry or two left over and he decided on a whim to fly to Aus to collect a cool $120,000 just for showing up. I wouldn’t be surprised if he hasn't even touched a racket since retiring in august.
Must be nice.
 
You won’t have long to not miss Rao - he is playing alex de Minaur in round 1 in Australia.
I hate to say it, because I do like Raonic, but Alex De Minaur is going to destroy him if he looked the way he did towards the end of last year. He didn't really look in good shape and we all know Alex is a work horse. He's gonna wear Raonic down. With his speediness, the heat, and the crowd.....it's a done deal.
 
I hate to say it, because I do like Raonic, but Alex De Minaur is going to destroy him if he looked the way he did towards the end of last year. He didn't really look in good shape and we all know Alex is a work horse. He's gonna wear Raonic down. With his speediness, the heat, and the crowd.....it's a done deal.
just an exhibition but he was hitting the ball well v tiafoe in kooyong. agree deminaur not the best draw for him rd 1, demon will probably drag him into deep end and drown him. but if he can have a banner serving day, he will be in the sets.
 
I think string and rac tech changed more things than just increase spin and power. The spin combined with the increased safety with which you can rip topspin shots, the power you can generate on the run made SnV a much less viable strategy. Now servebots have to stay back more frequently or execute the serve+1 (serve plus groundstroke winner) instead. But even for the serve+1 the above problem of rac and string tech allowing returners to get balls back with more interest still applies. Eventually the big server gets forced to get involved in more and more rallies and this is where they crumble.

The racquets and strings did buff the serve, but it also buffed the defenders and passers.
Here you go. This is a classic example of a servebot facing an all court player.

 
So possible reason for the extinction:
1.) Racquet tech--poly
2.) Faster and better athletes for ROS.
3.) Slow down of court surfaces
4.) Returners willing to return from the stands--Medvedev, Nadal and now many others.
 
Players are getting smarter about returns also. Blocking balls back and getting into a rally where they will beat the bot a high percentage of the time.
Yeah, and I look at that as being a little "dumb" on the server's part. In that, serving huge and then just staying back.

It's like, what's the point of serving 130+ if you're just going to stay back? Because like you say, all they have to do is block it back and the point is back to neutral.

The tactics are just a big head scratcher to me.

Serve and volley so they can't get away with blocking it back. Make them hit a return.

It worked in the past. :giggle:
 
We now have the serve + pusher variation
- Medvedev
-Zverev
-Hubbie

All will sometimes hit out but generally play defense. Hubbie is a little different in that he likes to come to net but still rarely rips a ground stroke.

As far as the old fashioned “serve bot”; maybe Eunanks fits the bill?
 
Raonic didn't play a match in 2022, and only played 9 matches in 2023 (5 wins, 4 losses), and Kyrgios lacks the physical strength to play tennis, and Rusedski, Roddick and Karlovic are retired.
 
Yeah, and I look at that as being a little "dumb" on the server's part. In that, serving huge and then just staying back.

It's like, what's the point of serving 130+ if you're just going to stay back? Because like you say, all they have to do is block it back and the point is back to neutral.

The tactics are just a big head scratcher to me.

Serve and volley so they can't get away with blocking it back. Make them hit a return.

It worked in the past. :giggle:
Why don't we see any of these guys moving forward off these long distance block returns?
Is it confidence? Skill?
Afraid of the occasional rifled FH return?
I feel Medy and Nadal have rifled some returns from the stands once in a while.
Maybe players from the 2000's have lost the secret knowledge that coming to the net is just about winning 51% of the points and you have to accept you are going to get passed?
 
Looking at the Oz draw, I don't really see many guys that I think of as just a big serve.
Yes a lot of these guys can bomb the serve but they have other goods to back it up--Shelton for instance.

Lots of smart answers but Shelton is a modern serve-bot, stat-wise at least. He wins just slightly more points in return games than Eubanks.

He breaks very rarely but holds well. I think he will improve but it is extremely unlikely that he will ever be an elite returner.

RkPlayer
M​
RPW​
RPW-InP​
vAce%​
vDF%​
v1st%​
v2nd%​
Brk%​
34Christopher Eubanks [USA]
39
30.9%​
31.4%​
9.9%​
3.9%​
22.6%​
45.2%​
12.5%​
16Ben Shelton [USA]
48
32.6%​
32.4%​
6.5%​
3.3%​
25.4%​
45.0%​
15.8%​
28Tallon Griekspoor [NED]
63
33.1%​
34.4%​
10.2%​
3.4%​
25.7%​
45.5%​
15.1%​
43Alexei Popyrin [AUS]
46
33.9%​
33.7%​
7.4%​
4.1%​
26.2%​
46.2%​
15.5%​
31Alexander Bublik [KAZ]
53
34.1%​
34.4%​
7.5%​
3.5%​
25.7%​
47.8%​
16.2%​
45Max Purcell [AUS]
32
34.4%​
35.3%​
8.7%​
3.4%​
27.0%​
47.3%​
17.7%​
46Lorenzo Sonego [ITA]
61
34.5%​
33.8%​
4.8%​
3.4%​
27.0%​
46.9%​
17.4%​
9Hubert Hurkacz [POL]
69
34.6%​
34.7%​
6.6%​
3.3%​
27.6%​
46.5%​
16.7%​
24Jan Lennard Struff [GER]
39
34.7%​
36.4%​
11.4%​
3.9%​
26.0%​
49.1%​
18.3%​
39Borna Coric [CRO]
42
34.8%​
35.2%​
7.0%​
3.2%​
28.7%​
45.6%​
17.4%​
7Stefanos Tsitsipas [GRE]
73
34.8%​
34.9%​
6.7%​
3.4%​
27.4%​
48.1%​
19.0%​
38Aslan Karatsev [RUS]
38
35.0%​
35.6%​
8.8%​
3.8%​
27.6%​
47.2%​
18.4%​
27Felix Auger Aliassime [CAN]
40
35.0%​
34.9%​
6.1%​
3.5%​
27.7%​
47.0%​
17.0%​
47Jordan Thompson [AUS]
45
35.0%​
35.3%​
7.3%​
3.6%​
27.9%​
47.7%​
16.6%​
32Jiri Lehecka [CZE]
64
35.1%​
35.3%​
6.7%​
3.4%​
28.2%​
46.7%​
19.2%​
35Arthur Fils [FRA]
44
35.1%​
35.5%​
7.6%​
3.6%​
27.3%​
49.0%​
19.5%​

Note also Fils and Tsitsipas. Much has been written about the attacking flair of the Greek but fundamentally he is brilliant serve plus player with great racket skills. Clay gives him more time to load up his shots and eases his defensive weakness.
 
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Why don't we see any of these guys moving forward off these long distance block returns?
Is it confidence? Skill?
Afraid of the occasional rifled FH return?
I feel Medy and Nadal have rifled some returns from the stands once in a while.
Maybe players from the 2000's have lost the secret knowledge that coming to the net is just about winning 51% of the points and you have to accept you are going to get passed?
Yeah, honestly, I just think players aren't taught to play like that anymore. So it's a matter of skill, or lack thereof.

And I guess the argument from some is that today's players are better athletes than players were 20 or 30 years ago.

Okay. Although, I see a player like Taylor Fritz in the top-10 and I kind of question that, but okay. :giggle:

And Federer and Nadal and Djokovic all have more grand slams than Pete Sampras. But I honestly don't think any of those three are better athletes than Sampras. They may be better tennis players from the standpoint of having more consistent groundstrokes, but I personally don't think any of them are better athletes.

Anyway, but say that tennis players are better athletes today than they were 20 or 30 years ago. If that is the case, then why do so many stay back and grind? That always baffles me. Because if you're a good athlete, then what are you grinding for? The people who grind are people who can't do anything other than that. That's the limit to their ability. Because that's the hardest way to win, and who would intentionally choose to play that way.

Yeah, today's players I feel just a play an adult version of how they played when they were 10-years-old. They weren't taught to play any other way. Or didn't want to play any other way. Or both.

Usually I think you learned to play serve and volley in your early teens. No one does that anymore. They just continue playing how they always played. So it's just an adult version of their childhood style. And most kids don't volley. They serve and stay back and hit ground strokes.

I blame the parents. :giggle:

But yep, it's a lack of skill due to it not being taught anymore. I think, at least.

Because I have a hard time believing that there's only one style of play that can win today. That just doesn't feel right. Something is out of place here...
 
Cressy and Matt Purcell are the exceptions.

Why would opelka and isner stay back? Shortening points has to be a bonus on those giant bodies.
 
I do believe that serving and volleying also helps improve *the serve as a shot*. I mean, when serving and volleying, you toss the ball more in the front, and launch your body more into the court and then run through the serve to the net. All of these actions help improve precision, angles and power of the serve.

Modern servers often toss too close to their heads (for example Berretini), which limits their power potential (yes, he serves big, but his serve would have been a lot more lethal if he tosses more into the court like a serve-and-volleyer) and angles.
 
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No servebots with current balls.
Screenshot-20240113-145950-Chrome.jpg
 
Yeah, honestly, I just think players aren't taught to play like that anymore. So it's a matter of skill, or lack thereof.

And I guess the argument from some is that today's players are better athletes than players were 20 or 30 years ago.

Okay. Although, I see a player like Taylor Fritz in the top-10 and I kind of question that, but okay. :giggle:

And Federer and Nadal and Djokovic all have more grand slams than Pete Sampras. But I honestly don't think any of those three are better athletes than Sampras. They may be better tennis players from the standpoint of having more consistent groundstrokes, but I personally don't think any of them are better athletes.

Anyway, but say that tennis players are better athletes today than they were 20 or 30 years ago. If that is the case, then why do so many stay back and grind? That always baffles me. Because if you're a good athlete, then what are you grinding for? The people who grind are people who can't do anything other than that. That's the limit to their ability. Because that's the hardest way to win, and who would intentionally choose to play that way.

Yeah, today's players I feel just a play an adult version of how they played when they were 10-years-old. They weren't taught to play any other way. Or didn't want to play any other way. Or both.

Usually I think you learned to play serve and volley in your early teens. No one does that anymore. They just continue playing how they always played. So it's just an adult version of their childhood style. And most kids don't volley. They serve and stay back and hit ground strokes.

I blame the parents. :giggle:

But yep, it's a lack of skill due to it not being taught anymore. I think, at least.

Because I have a hard time believing that there's only one style of play that can win today. That just doesn't feel right. Something is out of place here...
When I refer to better athlete, I think players of the past might have had better hands, volleys and possibly tactics.
But they were more likely to have clear weaknesses.

Todays, players although very similar in there game are faster, hit bigger more consistently and cover the court like never before.
My credit to current tennis is it is so big and fast that nuances of the oder game are harder to implement.
If you don't hit the ball deep or hard enough, the ball is put away.
Sitters of today were rally balls of the past. Yes this is all ground stroke based now and probably enhanced by technology, but I think it is also because they are fitter/faster athletes.

As a whole they might not be better athletes but faster athletes. If you gave guys in the 80's and 90's poly strings, there groundies would probably go up a level.

If you watch matches of the early 80's and 90's you'll see more variety, but the court coverage and player speed is definitely a different level.
 
Cressy and Matt Purcell are the exceptions.

Why would opelka and isner stay back? Shortening points has to be a bonus on those giant bodies.
Yeah, with Cressy and Purcell their only issue is that I guess they're decent players and not top players in terms of playing ability.

Because when I see them play and miss a volley or something, it's usually not because the shot was that great or anything. It's just that they miss volleys. If they played in the 80s or 90s they'd probably still be ranked around where they are today.

And yeah, with Isner and Opelka that has to be a case of that's just how they were taught to play. They're big guys, but they were taught to play a "little man's" game. They're 6'10" and 6'11" and serve huge, but the rest of the their game they play like they're 5'10" and 5'11".

Ivo Karlović was 6'11" and he served and volley. So he was obviously taught different.

On the ATP Podcast back on December 10th, Ivan Ljubičić said "’The biggest difference is the serve. This is one shot which has deteriorated over the years and the reason for that is that people used to serve big and now I think that has changed completely and people are now just serving ok’." (He starts talking about it at the 5:15 mark, and the whole episode is fairly interesting.)

I of course agree with Ljubičić. Guys serve today, and if they get a short return then it's serve+1. Otherwise they just start the point.

It's a way to play, but eh....

And I guess the powers that be don't really want to go back to the Sampras and Ivanišević days. So we have what we have.

When I refer to better athlete, I think players of the past might have had better hands, volleys and possibly tactics.
But they were more likely to have clear weaknesses.

Todays, players although very similar in there game are faster, hit bigger more consistently and cover the court like never before.
My credit to current tennis is it is so big and fast that nuances of the oder game are harder to implement.
If you don't hit the ball deep or hard enough, the ball is put away.
Sitters of today were rally balls of the past. Yes this is all ground stroke based now and probably enhanced by technology, but I think it is also because they are fitter/faster athletes.

As a whole they might not be better athletes but faster athletes. If you gave guys in the 80's and 90's poly strings, there groundies would probably go up a level.

If you watch matches of the early 80's and 90's you'll see more variety, but the court coverage and player speed is definitely a different level.
Yeah, I look at it in the way that, today they may hit bigger and more consistently, and cover the court like never before, but that's because the courts are slower.

When the courts are slower you can do. Like on clay, you can hit bigger and more consistently, and cover the court really well... because it's slower.

On grass today you have nothing but baseline rallies. That's wild. But that's of course because they changed the grass mixture from 30% creeping red fescue and 70% ryegrass to 100% ryegrass.


Yet as appealing as serve-and-volley tennis can be—at least for a time —the truth was that at Wimbledon it hardly made for a viewer-friendly experience. Throughout the ‘90s, the power of the serve had often made men’s matches at Wimbledon a series of staccato-like moments. For all the drama of the ’01 Ivanisevic-Rafter “People’s Monday” final, the rallies were rarely compelling and hardly showed off the wide range of skills that had emerged in tennis over the Open Era.

Boo!!! :giggle:

Anyway, any of us can play better on a slower court in terms hitting more consistently and covering the court well. I know I can. Because you have the time to do that. And if you go and play on a fast court, and your game isn't built for that, then you're not going to play as well.

Also, the string is a huge difference. I remember the first time I hit with poly I thought I would never miss a ball again. :giggle:

It felt almost like night and day. I could swing out of my shoes and socks and the ball would still always drop in. I love poly. It made me a better player, I think.

And yeah, on average players may be a bit better from an athletic standpoint, but I don't think it's to a large degree. (This was talked about briefly in that ATP Podcast that I have linked above.). And I say that simply because human evolution doesn't work that fast.

And yeah, again, the court coverage may be better, but that's by design due to slowing down the courts. And you now have more rallies and no longer have "Sampras and Ivanišević" serving contests.

I do agree that you have to play different today. But I attribute that more to technology and slower court speed than to overall athletic improvement.

The game has changed, but it's kind of due more to outside factors than due to the players.
 
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