Where does Djokovic rank all time on grass?

clout

Hall of Fame
IMO the greatest Wimbledon players in open era are:
1. Federer
2. Sampras
3. Borg
4. Djokovic
5. Becker
6. McEnroe
7. Connors
8. Nadal
9. Laver
10. Newcombe
Honourable mentions: Edberg and Murray
Also, needless to say, but that win by Djoker in the de-facto finals against Rafa was absolutely HUGEEEEE for both their grass/Wimby careers. Cuz had it been Rafa who pulled through, this list would look VERY different, as it'd now probably look more like:
1. Federer
2. Sampras
3. Borg
4. Becker
5. Nadal (who'd now own 3 titles and 6 finals)
6. McEnroe
7. Djokovic (who'd still be at 3 titles and 4 finals)
8. Connors
9. Laver
10. Newcombe

It's actually crazy how the outcome of just one match can completely alter a big aspect of tennis history. This is shown by the actual list above in my original post being significantly different from this hypothetical list which was VERY close to happening.

Crazy stuff indeed and as a tennis fan, I would LOVE to see more of these legacy-changing/defining matches over the next couple years between Fedalovic.
 

Le Master

Professional
It's a little depressing he obviously has to rank quite high at this point. He's not a good "grass" player per se. He's just so solid against the field playing the same way on every surface that he wins regardless which one he's on. Meh. Fed's largely to blame though for not winning in 2014 and 2015.
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
It only amazes me how we are now elevating Djokovic above the likes of Becker and McEnroe on grass, two all-time greats on that particular surface, some even claiming Macca being a better grass-courter than the mightiest of them all (Federer). At one point in his career, Djoker had grass as his weakest surface. Yet here we are placing him in the top 5 or 6 on grass in Open Era... I myself would find it hard to argue that.
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
ATGs on grass Open Era
1) Federer
2) Sampras
3) Borg
4) McEnroe
5) Becker
6) Djokovic
=6) Connors
 

clout

Hall of Fame
It only amazes me how we are now elevating Djokovic above the likes of Becker and McEnroe on grass, two all-time greats on that particular surface, some even claiming Macca being a better grass-courter than the mightiest of them all (Federer). At one point in his career, Djoker had grass as his weakest surface. Yet here we are placing him in the top 5 or 6 on grass in Open Era... I myself would find it hard to argue that.
Well Rafa once had HC's as his least fav surface, but he's probably a top 5-6 HC player in open era now, so Nole's evolution on grass over his career wasn't extremely unusual
 
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D

Deleted member 716271

Guest
It's a little depressing he obviously has to rank quite high at this point. He's not a good "grass" player per se. He's just so solid against the field playing the same way on every surface that he wins regardless which one he's on. Meh. Fed's largely to blame though for not winning in 2014 and 2015.
Disagree.

Very Good Serve (particular 2nd, but 1st as well lately) and All Time great return= skills that translate well on grass.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
It only amazes me how we are now elevating Djokovic above the likes of Becker and McEnroe on grass, two all-time greats on that particular surface, some even claiming Macca being a better grass-courter than the mightiest of them all (Federer). At one point in his career, Djoker had grass as his weakest surface. Yet here we are placing him in the top 5 or 6 on grass in Open Era... I myself would find it hard to argue that.
At one point, grass was also Sampras' weakest surface and he hated it but we know how that turned out. In fact, both Sampras and Federer both lost in the 1st of round of Wimbledon the 1st two times they played it. Djokovic has never lost in the 1st round of Wimbledon and although it may have been his weakest surface at one point in time, it definitely isn't now. Players evolve over time and adapt to certain conditions. Becker and McEnroe were different type of players who played in a different type of era but that does not mean Djokovic is not as effective in his era as they were in theirs. In fact, he's more effective.

His game comes alive on grass. Once he left the dirt and stepped on grass the serve immediately came back after missing for 2 years. The returns starting landing deep in the court and on the lines. The reflexes and point construction improved. He even volleys better on grass then he does on other surfaces and he is not someone who I would call a strong volleyer. So people who don't see it for Djokovic as one of the greatest on grass have their opinions, but no one is going to argue with those 4 Wimbledon titles. I am about 75% sure that he will tie Borg before he retires and I wonder what new inventive arguments people will come up with then.
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
At one point, grass was also Sampras' weakest surface and he hated it but we know how that turned out. In fact, both Sampras and Federer both lost in the 1st of round of Wimbledon the 1st two times they played it. Djokovic has never lost in the 1st round of Wimbledon and although it may have been his weakest surface at one point in time, it definitely isn't now. Players evolve over time and adapt to certain conditions. Becker and McEnroe were different type of players who played in a different type of era but that does not mean Djokovic is not as effective in his era as they were in theirs. In fact, he's more effective.

His game comes alive on grass. Once he left the dirt and stepped on grass the serve immediately came back after missing for 2 years. The returns starting landing deep in the court and on the lines. The reflexes and point construction improved. He even volleys better on grass then he does on other surfaces and he is not someone who I would call a strong volleyer. So people who don't see it for Djokovic as one of the greatest on grass have their opinions, but no one is going to argue with those 4 Wimbledon titles. I am about 75% sure that he will tie Borg before he retires and I wonder what new inventive arguments people will come up with then.
That's one thing I noticed about Djoko's game this Wimby, he has improved his volleying and overheads. I won't be surprised either if he did win another title there and finish with 5. If that were the case I may have to re-visit my list and place him above McEnroe/Becker. He should win other grass titles too though not just Wimbledon, if he were to elevate his status even more as a grass great.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
That's one thing I noticed about Djoko's game this Wimby, he has improved his volleying and overheads. I won't be surprised either if he did win another title there and finish with 5. If that were the case I may have to re-visit my list and place him above McEnroe/Becker. He should win other grass titles too though not just Wimbledon, if he were to elevate his status even more as a grass great.
Yea his volleying was excellent against Nadal when he needed it most. The overhead was as well and he didn't miss a single one. One point Nadal made him hit 4 overheads in a row. That made me nervous. :D Just looking at him this year, he looks like the only guy who can beat him on this surface is Federer with all guns blazing. He can put away the rest of this field if he plays around 85% of his ability. I see him winning one more Wimbledon in the next two years if he keeps his form. He probably won't play a lot of grass tournaments though and Sampras didn't either really.
 

mika1979

Professional
Also, needless to say, but that win by Djoker in the de-facto finals against Rafa was absolutely HUGEEEEE for both their grass/Wimby careers. Cuz had it been Rafa who pulled through, this list would look VERY different, as it'd now probably look more like:
1. Federer
2. Sampras
3. Borg
4. Becker
5. Nadal (who'd now own 3 titles and 6 finals)
6. McEnroe
7. Djokovic (who'd still be at 3 titles and 4 finals)
8. Connors
9. Laver
10. Newcombe

It's actually
It pretty much Sampras Fed, Borg at the top

Djokovic Mcenroe Becker behind, and the next rung the rest, but this forum is crap
 

Krish872007

G.O.A.T.
Federer
Sampras
Borg
Djokovic

The rest. Now if Djokovic wins a 5th title, his place will be subject to more debate. I may still have him just behind Borg simply because the latter won 5 consecutive titles
 
The problem is that in the old days, you actually had to adapt your game so much more to play on grass courts. Nowadays you can pretty much keep your game uniform. Connors went to the net more on grass, hit passing shots off skidding serves etc. Its a pity that players today don't have that opportunity to showcase how well they can adapt their games.
 

thrust

Hall of Fame
All time means players like Laver come into the equation.
Before 1968, three of the four slams were on grass so that there were also more tune up tournaments on grass, which is why Laver and others of that era have many more grass court titles. Also, because there were so may more grass court tournaments then, there were more very good grass court players back then.
 

Tiki-Taka

Hall of Fame
Every road to the final has been easy for Djokovic.

In 2011, 2014, and 2015 he kept facing the same 4 players to reach the final...Tomic (2011, 2015), Tsonga (2011, 2014), Cilic (2014, 2015), and Anderson (2011, 2015...and who Djokovic would beat in the final in 2018). To reach the true final this year (the semis), he faced a few mugs, a few NextGens still developing, and punching bag Nishikori.
All those guys he faced multiple times that you mentioned except Tomic are definitely capable of solid play on grass. Wouldn't have made some deep runs at the tournament if that wasn't the case, facing them more than once doesn't make them worse opponents. If I remember well Novak also had guys like Stepanek, Simon, Kohlschreiber early in some of his tournaments, even Tsonga and Anderson were met at that stage once, not allowing him much extra room and more time to relax and get into form, especially in 2014. Then if we consider this year's semifinal to be the true final, he beat both Federer and Nadal twice in matches for Wimbledon title. That is quality.
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
The problem is that in the old days, you actually had to adapt your game so much more to play on grass courts. Nowadays you can pretty much keep your game uniform. Connors went to the net more on grass, hit passing shots off skidding serves etc. Its a pity that players today don't have that opportunity to showcase how well they can adapt their games.
That line of thinking is neither here nor there.

Djokovic played the conditions, not the history.

Of course, when one makes such lists one should also be aware of the risks they bring with using them.

We separate the tours on pre-Open era, and Open Era, and the same can be done for the grass prior to 2002 and after, but if one agreed to make a joint list one cannot hold responsible the players for playing in different conditions.

If that were the case Federer, should be ranked lower than Mac, Edberg, Becker, Borg, and, of course, Sampras, as he didn't win any of his titles when the game on grass was different.

Then there should be a divide on wood, Alu, graphite etc raquets etc etc

That is why such aggregate lists are stupid: people that don’t know much about many of the players in them look at the raw numbers, and make the wrong conclusions.

:cool:
 

clout

Hall of Fame
Nadal is not top 5 on HC.
Well he's certainly behind Federer, Djokovic, Sampras and Agassi, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Edit: here's the list for most HC majors in open era:
1. Federer- 11 slams; 14 finals
2. Djokovic- 8 slams; 13 finals
3. Sampras- 7 slams; 11 finals
4. Agassi- 6 slams; 9 finals
5. Lendl- 5 slams; 12 finals
T6. Nadal- 4 slams; 8 finals
T6. McEnroe - 4 slams; 5 finals
T8. Connors- 3 slams; 3 finals
T8. Becker- 3 slams; 3 finals

Ahh my bad I forgot Lendl there, he was of course a beast on HC's as well.

I'll put Bull ahead of Mac on HC's due to the 3 additional slam finals. So therefore, Rafa's probably 6th all time on HC's.
 
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California

Rookie
He's behind Edberg and Connors when he has double the Wimbledon titles? LMAO.
Edberg won two majors at the Aussie Open on grass... so he has won 4 majors on grass. Plus, he actually had to play other great grass players to win those 4 titles unlike today when if you can avoid Fed, you don't play anyone with real grass court skills.
 

B-Line

New User
Great player and well worthy of his win on Sunday. A much better player than some mentioned on here.

Shame the semi wasn't the final :(
 

Xavier G

Professional
Before 1968, three of the four slams were on grass so that there were also more tune up tournaments on grass, which is why Laver and others of that era have many more grass court titles. Also, because there were so may more grass court tournaments then, there were more very good grass court players back then.
Yes, I know.
Laver's an ATG grass court player who played in an era of grass courts everywhere. If all time grass court play is mentioned, he enters the discussion.

Have you just answered the wrong post or something or just like stating the bl00dy obvious?!? :D

Some strange people on here indeed.
(Dear God, give me strength...)
 

Xavier G

Professional
Anyway, Djokovic has now 4 Wimbledon championships and been in the latter stages on other occasions showing a high level, so it's clear he's a formidable grass court player under modern conditions.
 
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NatF

Bionic Poster
Plus many of the prestigious tournaments were on carpet while these days the equivalent tourneys are on HC.
Yeah obviously if you group carpet with HC then Nadal is nowhere near Mac or Becker, but I tend to treat carpet as a separate surface. Open to arguments to the contrary though.
 

vex

Hall of Fame
It only amazes me how we are now elevating Djokovic above the likes of Becker and McEnroe on grass, two all-time greats on that particular surface, some even claiming Macca being a better grass-courter than the mightiest of them all (Federer). At one point in his career, Djoker had grass as his weakest surface. Yet here we are placing him in the top 5 or 6 on grass in Open Era... I myself would find it hard to argue that.
It’s a lot of context. Who knows if Djoker could beat those guys on grass if each side trained for whichever era they played the match in (mac with that FH couldn’t win anything played in today’s game and Djoker with his average volleys would be similarly troubled in Mac’s era. Conditions are too different to compare).

What you can compare is how they did in thier era against thier contemporaries. Djoker has better results on grass against arguably better competition (arguably - Fed v Borg, but u have to consider age, ect ect)

In the end no one knows but long after these guys are gone only the numbers will remain. Djoker has the numbers atm. The case gets even stronger when you consider all the extra opportunities Mac had over a Djoker to win grass slams when the AO was on grass.

You’re not wrong to prefer Mac, we’ll never know
 
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Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
How many HC slams did Mac get to play though?
Well, the USO was played on clay 75-77, so Mac played on HC there starting in 78. He was born in 59, so we can safely say the USO was on HC during his career, but the AO was not until well after his peak. We can fairly divide his HC tally on majors in half to compare him with later players.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Well, the USO was played on clay 75-77, so Mac played on HC there starting in 78. He was born in 59, so we can safely say the USO was on HC during his career, but the AO was not until well after his peak. We can fairly divide his HC tally on majors in half to compare him with later players.
Yeah the fact he won 4 USO's in a very competitive era is enough for me to put him over Nadal, if you consider carpet results with HC it's a no brainer.
 

clout

Hall of Fame
How many HC slams did Mac get to play though?
I usually keep HC's and Carpet separate as there is still quite a difference between the two and one doesn't even exist anymore. However, if carpet were to be included, then this entire list overall would look drastically different.
 

Achilles82

Professional
What about Rafa ? He made 5 consecutive finals in peak grass perod .
When it comes to ranking best players on grass, wimbledon titles is all that matters. When scores are tied, then we can take to an account other factors. Novak won 5 wimbledons that makes him above rafa, also beating rafa couple of times on wimbledon, even when Rafa was world No1 in 2011.
 
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