It depends on the surface, if they will play at former faster grass Edberg could win.peak Djokovic would annihilate peak Edberg
It depends on the surface, if they will play at former faster grass Edberg could win.peak Djokovic would annihilate peak Edberg
IMO the greatest Wimbledon players in open era are:
1. Federer
2. Sampras
3. Borg
4. Djokovic
5. Becker
6. McEnroe
7. Connors
8. Nadal
9. Laver
10. Newcombe
Honourable mentions: Edberg and Murray
Thanks! Ranking the top 10 players at the AO and RG was definitely the toughest as a lot of players in open era alone had very similar resumes at these two events. For AO, after Fed, Djokovic and Agassi, the rest of the list is interchangeable and for RG, after Nadal and Borg, the rest of the list can always go in any way, shape or form.Solid lists
Still below the real grass courters Pete, Laver, Borg, Mac, Becker, Edberg. And I guess Fed too.
Well Rafa once had HC's as his least fav surface, but he's probably a top 5-6 HC player in open era now, so Nole's evolution on grass over his career wasn't extremely unusualIt only amazes me how we are now elevating Djokovic above the likes of Becker and McEnroe on grass, two all-time greats on that particular surface, some even claiming Macca being a better grass-courter than the mightiest of them all (Federer). At one point in his career, Djoker had grass as his weakest surface. Yet here we are placing him in the top 5 or 6 on grass in Open Era... I myself would find it hard to argue that.
now has 4 Wimbledon titles
It's a little depressing he obviously has to rank quite high at this point. He's not a good "grass" player per se. He's just so solid against the field playing the same way on every surface that he wins regardless which one he's on. Meh. Fed's largely to blame though for not winning in 2014 and 2015.
It only amazes me how we are now elevating Djokovic above the likes of Becker and McEnroe on grass, two all-time greats on that particular surface, some even claiming Macca being a better grass-courter than the mightiest of them all (Federer). At one point in his career, Djoker had grass as his weakest surface. Yet here we are placing him in the top 5 or 6 on grass in Open Era... I myself would find it hard to argue that.
At one point, grass was also Sampras' weakest surface and he hated it but we know how that turned out. In fact, both Sampras and Federer both lost in the 1st of round of Wimbledon the 1st two times they played it. Djokovic has never lost in the 1st round of Wimbledon and although it may have been his weakest surface at one point in time, it definitely isn't now. Players evolve over time and adapt to certain conditions. Becker and McEnroe were different type of players who played in a different type of era but that does not mean Djokovic is not as effective in his era as they were in theirs. In fact, he's more effective.
His game comes alive on grass. Once he left the dirt and stepped on grass the serve immediately came back after missing for 2 years. The returns starting landing deep in the court and on the lines. The reflexes and point construction improved. He even volleys better on grass then he does on other surfaces and he is not someone who I would call a strong volleyer. So people who don't see it for Djokovic as one of the greatest on grass have their opinions, but no one is going to argue with those 4 Wimbledon titles. I am about 75% sure that he will tie Borg before he retires and I wonder what new inventive arguments people will come up with then.
That's one thing I noticed about Djoko's game this Wimby, he has improved his volleying and overheads. I won't be surprised either if he did win another title there and finish with 5. If that were the case I may have to re-visit my list and place him above McEnroe/Becker. He should win other grass titles too though not just Wimbledon, if he were to elevate his status even more as a grass great.
Lol Edberg, and Laver may be on Semi-pro listStill below the real grass courters Pete, Laver, Borg, Mac, Becker, Edberg. And I guess Fed too.
Also, needless to say, but that win by Djoker in the de-facto finals against Rafa was absolutely HUGEEEEE for both their grass/Wimby careers. Cuz had it been Rafa who pulled through, this list would look VERY different, as it'd now probably look more like:
1. Federer
2. Sampras
3. Borg
4. Becker
5. Nadal (who'd now own 3 titles and 6 finals)
6. McEnroe
7. Djokovic (who'd still be at 3 titles and 4 finals)
8. Connors
9. Laver
10. Newcombe
It's actually
Nadal is not top 5 on HC.Well Rafa once had HC's as his least fav surface, but he's probably a top 5-6 HC player in open era now, so Nole's evolution on grass over his career wasn't extremely unusual
Before 1968, three of the four slams were on grass so that there were also more tune up tournaments on grass, which is why Laver and others of that era have many more grass court titles. Also, because there were so may more grass court tournaments then, there were more very good grass court players back then.All time means players like Laver come into the equation.
All those guys he faced multiple times that you mentioned except Tomic are definitely capable of solid play on grass. Wouldn't have made some deep runs at the tournament if that wasn't the case, facing them more than once doesn't make them worse opponents. If I remember well Novak also had guys like Stepanek, Simon, Kohlschreiber early in some of his tournaments, even Tsonga and Anderson were met at that stage once, not allowing him much extra room and more time to relax and get into form, especially in 2014. Then if we consider this year's semifinal to be the true final, he beat both Federer and Nadal twice in matches for Wimbledon title. That is quality.Every road to the final has been easy for Djokovic.
In 2011, 2014, and 2015 he kept facing the same 4 players to reach the final...Tomic (2011, 2015), Tsonga (2011, 2014), Cilic (2014, 2015), and Anderson (2011, 2015...and who Djokovic would beat in the final in 2018). To reach the true final this year (the semis), he faced a few mugs, a few NextGens still developing, and punching bag Nishikori.
The problem is that in the old days, you actually had to adapt your game so much more to play on grass courts. Nowadays you can pretty much keep your game uniform. Connors went to the net more on grass, hit passing shots off skidding serves etc. Its a pity that players today don't have that opportunity to showcase how well they can adapt their games.
Well he's certainly behind Federer, Djokovic, Sampras and Agassi, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.Nadal is not top 5 on HC.
Lendl and Mac.Well he's certainly behind Federer, Djokovic, Sampras and Agassi, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Yea Lendl for sure. Mac and Rafa both have 4 HC slams, but Rafa made 3 extra HC slam finals so I guess I'll give bull the slight edge there.Lendl and Mac.
He's behind Edberg and Connors when he has double the Wimbledon titles? LMAO.
Before 1968, three of the four slams were on grass so that there were also more tune up tournaments on grass, which is why Laver and others of that era have many more grass court titles. Also, because there were so may more grass court tournaments then, there were more very good grass court players back then.
Yea Lendl for sure. Mac and Rafa both have 4 HC slams, but Rafa made 3 extra HC slam finals so I guess I'll give bull the slight edge there.
Plus many of the prestigious tournaments were on carpet while these days the equivalent tourneys are on HC.How many HC slams did Mac get to play though?
Plus many of the prestigious tournaments were on carpet while these days the equivalent tourneys are on HC.
And then return to practice like a man possessed within a week.broke both his feet, tore multiple collateral ligaments and likely suffered a concussion in the pre-match warmup before the semi so it's amazing he was even able to push it to 5!!!
It’s a lot of context. Who knows if Djoker could beat those guys on grass if each side trained for whichever era they played the match in (mac with that FH couldn’t win anything played in today’s game and Djoker with his average volleys would be similarly troubled in Mac’s era. Conditions are too different to compare).It only amazes me how we are now elevating Djokovic above the likes of Becker and McEnroe on grass, two all-time greats on that particular surface, some even claiming Macca being a better grass-courter than the mightiest of them all (Federer). At one point in his career, Djoker had grass as his weakest surface. Yet here we are placing him in the top 5 or 6 on grass in Open Era... I myself would find it hard to argue that.
Well, the USO was played on clay 75-77, so Mac played on HC there starting in 78. He was born in 59, so we can safely say the USO was on HC during his career, but the AO was not until well after his peak. We can fairly divide his HC tally on majors in half to compare him with later players.How many HC slams did Mac get to play though?
Well, the USO was played on clay 75-77, so Mac played on HC there starting in 78. He was born in 59, so we can safely say the USO was on HC during his career, but the AO was not until well after his peak. We can fairly divide his HC tally on majors in half to compare him with later players.
I usually keep HC's and Carpet separate as there is still quite a difference between the two and one doesn't even exist anymore. However, if carpet were to be included, then this entire list overall would look drastically different.How many HC slams did Mac get to play though?
Open Era Wimbledon champions
1. Federer
2. Sampras
3. Borg
4. Djokovic
5. McEnroe
6. Becker
7. Laver
8. Edberg
9. Connors
10. Newcombe
Fed - 8 titlesBump. Where do we rank him now? I don't think my order changes from the 1st page.
What about Rafa ? He made 5 consecutive finals in peak grass perod .