Where does Federer rank in open era claycourters?

dh003i

Legend
Well god guys.. You get 4 SHOTS against 1 player 4 YEARS IN A ROW, I think you should eventually know what to expect in the finals from Nadal. Fed never and still has never really gotten this taken care of against Nadal.. And consequently, it has carried over into all surfaces now, not just clay. THATS WHY, I can understand why people will doubt things with Fed. I believe if you gave Guga, Bruguera, Muster, Lendl, Borg, WIlander, 4 SHOTS at Nadal, they would have managed 1 win out of the 4 anyways.

Fed should have managed 1 if he was that great. I mean COME ON! He had time to prepare I would say for 1 guy for 4 years for 4 different tries

Sampras had many years to win the FO. Yet, he only got to 1 SF. I mean, COME ON! He had time to prepare.

You're probably right -- Guga, Bruguera, Muster, Lendl, Borg, Wilander all probably would have won more matches vs. Nadal on clay than Federer did. But they're all ranked as better clay-court players. They're all also guys who's game would probably deal better with Nadal's high-bouncing top-spin.

Federer is one of a very few players to beat Nadal on his best surface during the years when he dominated clay. Hamburg '07 and Madrid '09. Both were quite impressive, especially his year when Federer had a disappointing year up until that point.

I doubt that Sampras would have done any better -- and in fact think he would've done a lot worse -- versus Nadal on clay than Federer has so far. Not that that's a knock on him. He still is arguably the greatest player ever (6 straight years #1 and 286 weeks #1, along with 14 GS and 7 Wimbledons are now Sampras' argument). I think Federer has a stronger argument, but it isn't beyond debate.

I do, however, discount pretty much everyone outside of Federer, Sampras, Borg, and Laver from the arguments about who was the greatest player in the Open Era. IMO, it's: 1. Federer and Laver tied; 2. Sampras; 3. Borg.
 

Spider

Hall of Fame
imo 11th.

1.Borg
2.Nadal
3.Lendl
4.Wilander
5.Kuerten
6.Vilas
7.Muster
8.Courier
9.Brugeura
10.Ferrero
11.Federer

I don't agree with this list completely. No way can Nadal be so high.

The correct order should be:

1.Borg
2.Kuerten
3.Vilas
4.Muster
5.Nadal
6.Courier (at his peak)
7.Brugeura (at his peak)
8.Federer
9.Coria (at his peak)

I mean the clay field is depleted today which allows both Nadal and Federer to beat their opponents and play each other in the final. In the mid nineties (and before that), considering the clay court field, even Nadal wouldn't be a sure candidate to reach a clay court final (however good he plays), let alone Federer. We need to keep that in mind.
 
D

Deleted member 25923

Guest
Great athlete Monfils is.. But it sure hasnt helped him alot in the world of tennis.. Maybe he should have tried out for the olympics doing some other sport.. Long jump or something

GS, there is nothing wrong with this post and I actually agree, but the blunt way that you said it is hilarious.
 
1.Borg
2.Kuerten
3.Vilas
4.Muster
5.Nadal
6.Courier (at his peak)
7.Brugeura (at his peak)
8.Federer
9.Coria (at his peak)

Nadal below Vilas and Muster is a joke of course. An even bigger joke though is Coria at #9. Coria anywhere near the top 10 of the Open Era clay courters, ROTFL!!! Keep dreaming. The guy was lucky to have one year as the top dog on clay with Kuerten already down with injuries, Ferrero down quicky with a major illness and groin injury, Federer pre prime on clay, and Nadal only 17 and not even playing the French that year. He couldnt win the French Open in probably the worst clay court field ever, even far worse than todays. Tim freaking Henman was in the semis of the French that year, and Gaston Gaudio was his final opponent. Still couldnt win it.

Sampas should rank over Coria on clay. There I said it.
 

Spider

Hall of Fame
Nadal below Vilas and Muster is a joke of course. An even bigger joke though is Coria at #9. Coria anywhere near the top 10 of the Open Era clay courters, ROTFL!!! Keep dreaming. The guy was lucky to have one year as the top dog on clay with Kuerten already down with injuries, Ferrero down quicky with a major illness and groin injury, Federer pre prime on clay, and Nadal only 17 and not even playing the French that year. He couldnt win the French Open in probably the worst clay court field ever, even far worse than todays. Tim freaking Henman was in the semis of the French that year, and Gaston Gaudio was his final opponent. Still couldnt win it.

Sampas should rank over Coria on clay. There I said it.

Wow, why do you hate Coria so much? Didn't you read the part where I said "at his peak". A peak Coria could challenge Nadal and even beat him in best of three set matches on clay, and yes, he was that good.

And Vilas and Muster were challenged by champion clay court players, the only challenger to Nadal in the past 5 years has been Federer (and that says a lot about today's field).

Yes both Muster and Vilas are above Nadal considering the depth of the field.
 
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Coria is a joke to even be in the top 25 clay courters of the Open Era. What is his biggest ever win on clay? 33 year old Agassi. He could beat Nadal? How, when he couldnt even beat 18 year old Nadal in 2 tries. Prime Coria is 0-2 vs Federer on clay too.

As grafseles pointed out he couldnt even win the horrible French Open in 2004. He couldnt even dominate the horrible 2004 clay court field with no competition at all losing to Federer in a Masters final when Roger was still losing early rounds of most clay events, and losing to Gaston Gaudio the worst FO winner of the Open Era. He is nowhere near the top 10 list, like I said probably not even top 25.
 

Spider

Hall of Fame
Coria (at his peak) could beat most players from different era's, however, the main problem with Coria was that he wasn't able to keep his fitness level up and therefore has underachieved.

If he could play at his peak level, throughout his career, he would have achieved a lot more on clay than Federer (and perhaps even Nadal).

He is one of the most underrated players, he deserves more credit than what he seems to be getting here.
 
Coria (at his peak) could beat most players from different era's, however, the main problem with Coria was that he wasn't able to keep his fitness level up and therefore has underachieved.

If he could play at his peak level, throughout his career, he would have achieved a lot more on clay than Federer (and perhaps even Nadal).

He is one of the most underrated players, he deserves more credit than what he seems to be getting here.

Coria isn't fit to sniff Nadal's underwear.
 

sanchino

Semi-Pro
I hope this tread dies soon.....otherwise I'll keep remembering when men;s tennis was trying ti be like the ****s!.....at the french anyway.....exactly what Brugera was, a male Arancha Ssancex.....and yes, I don't know how to spell it.....dont care to
 
Wow, why do you hate Coria so much? Didn't you read the part where I said "at his peak". A peak Coria could challenge Nadal and even beat him in best of three set matches on clay, and yes, he was that good.

And Vilas and Muster were challenged by champion clay court players, the only challenger to Nadal in the past 5 years has been Federer (and that says a lot about today's field).

Yes both Muster and Vilas are above Nadal considering the depth of the field.

LOL at peak Coria. What the heck was Coria's great peak on clay!?! His 3 best years this is what he produced:

-losses to Verkerk (semis), Gaudio (final), and pre prime Davydenko (round of 16) at the French

-a combined 0-4 record vs 18 year old Nadal and Federer

-a 6-2, 6-2 loss in his last meeting with pre-illness Ferrero on clay in the Monte Carlo final. Also 6-2, 6-3, 6-3 in the French Open the year before that albeit pre prime Coria (if the guy ever had a real prime that is).

-struggling to beat Timmy Henman in the French Open semis, nearly going 5 sets.

-0 French Open titles even in weak clay court field that is even weaker than the weak clay court field Federer/Nadal dominate today that you referred to.

-only 2 Masters titles, 1 of the 2 only because Ferrero skipped the event.

As federerfanatic said what are his biggest wins ever on clay? Carlos Moya a couple times. 33 year old Agassi. How can he beat top 10 of the Open Era on clay when at his so called peak he didnt even once beat a possible top 10 clay courter of the Open Era.

Coria is a lightweight. No power on his shots, crummy serve even for clay courter standards, iffy fitness, lacking physical strength and durability, complete lack of mental resolve when things dont go right. Rating him the #9 clay courter of the Open Era is one of the most laughable things I have ever read.

Vilas was slapped around by Borg like a ragdoll. I dont know how Nadal would fare vs prime Borg but I gaurantee you it would be better than that. Borg didnt challenge Vilas, he mauled him, and Vilas mostly mulched on depleted clay court tournaments where there wasnt any real challenge to face. Muster is like a weaker version of Nadal, and he was only even that for a couple years. Both are great clay courters still though.
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
Funny to see someone ranking coria in the top 10 and equally funny seeing someone saying sampras should rank over coria on clay !

Lets not even delve into someone saying that in a parallel universe with same equipment fed would beat borg more often than not on clay !!!!!!

P.S. GJ is back in full swing, I see ;)
 
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Blinkism

Legend
This is a tough call.

Fed > Coria, Gaudio, Moya and maybe Ferrero.

Now, guys like Courier, Brugera, and Muster are toss-ups. I feel like Fed could definitely keep up with them in the same era.

Lendl, Wilander, Kuerten, and Vilas would beat Fed most of the time.

And Borg and Nadal would just spank Fed (and Nadal basically does 9 out of 11 times).
 

joeri888

G.O.A.T.
I think Cesc had a good list in the OP. Maybe Federer one place higher (above Ferrero) and that would be it for me. Although I think all top 15 could give each other a run for their money. Federer beat Nadal 2 out of 11, and was straightsetted only twice I think. Even Borg-Ferrero in their primes would not be a spanking all the time. Would be nice to see a kind of Masters Cup event with those guys in their primes on clay.
 

NonP

Legend
Guess I’ll jump in. Here’s my top 10:

1) Borg
2) Nadal
3) Lendl
4) Wilander
5) Kuerten
6) Muster
7) Courier
8) Vilas
9) Bruguera/Federer (tie)

A few points:

1) I place Vilas rather low mainly on one basis: Most of his clay titles came at the expense of 2nd-tier players. In fact he never was able to trouble a prime Borg except in that sole win at the '80 Nations Cup. A pre-prime Lendl, on the other hand, was able to push Borg to 5 sets in the '81 FO final. (And yes, I do know Vilas beat Lendl twice in ‘82, but Ivan got the last laugh with a superior 7-5 H2H on clay, the other three losses incurred in ’80.) Doubt Vilas' peak > Muster’s or Courier’s—or Fed's, for that matter. This is also why I don’t think Nastase and Panatta are up there. Peter Bodo actually once said that the supposedly great clay-courters of the ‘70s (save Panatta, who constantly sought to attack even on clay), had nothing that could hurt Borg, whereas now there are many players who do have the weapons to hurt Nadal but he’s simply much better. Something to think about before we rate Borg’s competition. Anyway Vilas’ prolific clay resume can’t be denied, so I put him a notch above Bruguera and Federer.

2) Connors deserves an honorary mention for making 4 FO SFs and QFs. He might have snatched a trophy from Borg (most likely in ’74—don’t see him winning after that) had he been allowed to compete at RG from ’74-‘78.

3) I agree with those who argued that Fed should be placed higher than Ferrero. One thing that struck me about this issue, though, is that some of you were comparing Fed and Ferrero in their respective primes. Actually, I’m not so sure we ever got to see Ferrero in his prime, just as I’m not sure we got to see Kuerten in his prime on HCs and grass. Both players’ careers were cut short by injuries, and who knows how much more they would’ve achieved not just on clay but on other surfaces, too. But we have to assess what did happen, and I might put Ferrero above Fed if JCF’s peak level was clearly superior, but I don’t see such a big gap. So Fed above JCF.

As for Guga, I do feel his peak could be above Lendl’s and Wilander’s, but the clay resume of either of the two ‘80s titans is richer by at least half a dozen titles. Besides they had each other as rivals, whereas Guga didn’t have such a formidable rival on his runs to the finish lines. I guess some could say Guga had to face a greater # of very good and great clay-courters, but a closer look reveals it’s not as clear-cut as that. By ’97 Bruguera was slightly past his prime, and Muster had revamped his game with flatter strokes to focus on HCs, which did pay off but not on clay. (BTW I think it was the ’97 FO, not ’96, that was Sampras’ best chance at his career Grand Slam, but I digress.) Guga also had to defeat Kafelnikov and Ferrero in the ’00 and ’01 QFs and SFs (yes, he did face the same two players in the same rounds two straight years), and Norman and Corretja in the ’00 and ’01 finals respectively, but none of them are all-time clay greats, at least not in the top 10. And though Guga did lose to Medvedev having the best 13 days of his life in ’99 (the frustratingly talented but underachieving Muscovite should’ve won the whole thing that year, but choked in the last 3 sets of the final against Agassi), the same can be said of Noah in ’83. So it’s actually a close call, and one can argue for Kuerten on the basis of tougher overall competition, higher peak level and the fact that Lendl and Wilander met in only 2 FO finals. Think I’ll stick with my current ranking unless someone shows me I missed something important.

4) Speaking of peak level, I can’t help but chuckle when I see some breathtakingly erudite experts place Muster below Courier, Bruguera and even Federer just ‘cause he won only 1 FO, his 40 clay titles be damned. Tell you what: There’s only one clay-courter since the ‘90s on whom I’d bet to take down Muster at his peak, and his name is Raphael Nadal. Even Guga would have to be at his flamboyant best to break down the wall that was Muster’s defense, as he wouldn’t be able to exploit his BH which was one of the very few 1HBHs that could handle high topspin balls with utter ease and then some. (The same, of course, can’t be said of Federer’s own 1HBH.)

And what makes this revisionism even more amazing is the trope that Muster underachieved at RG. No, Muster did not “underachieve” at RG, if you’re referring to his 4th-round exit from the ’96 FO. What he did do was to run into Stich who could blow anyone off the court on any surface on his best days, and that he exactly did to Muster, from the baseline. Stich wasn’t the player Sampras feared most for nothing. But let’s just go by the # of Slam trophies. Seems to be the genius logic around here.

5) I place Courier above Bruguera largely because the former’s best beats the latter’s. Sergi was a very, very talented player, but I felt he just never lived up to his potential. He had actually very good hands at the net and could smack FH winners if he wanted, but he simply chose to retrieve like a Spaniel. Too bad. And that’s why I place him alongside Federer.

BTW some of you seem to have this notion that Courier was a non-factor after ’93. Eh, not quite. What happened was that there was this man named Pete Sampras who not only happened to be the best player of his generation, but also the first player who, according to Jim’s former coach Jose Higueras, figured out how to exploit Courier’s huge FH by precisely serving out wide to his FH side. And even so Jim didn’t go down with a whimper. Their ’95 AO QF 5-setter was a classic, not just for that famous weeping incident, and of course there’s that another 5-setter in the ’96 FO QF. Now I know some, apparently having a photographic memory of the match, point to Courier’s poor showings in clay events right before that year’s FO as the evidence that he was way past his prime. Actually, Jim usually didn’t fare so well before the FO, even in the years he won the title. If you can, watch the match again and you’ll see that given his level of play in the QF he had a very good chance at his 3rd FO title without Sampras stopping him again (unless Stich kept up his form from early rounds). It’s pretty impressive that Pete came back from 2 sets down (again), ‘cause he wasn’t moving all that well in the 1st 2 sets compared to how he moved just the previous round. Probably his best win on clay, apart from the ’95 DC finals.
 
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Aabye

Professional
Guess I’ll jump in. Here’s my top 10:

1) Borg
2) Nadal
3) Lendl
4) Wilander
5) Kuerten
6) Muster
7) Courier
8) Vilas
9) Bruguera/Federer (tie)

A few points:

1) I place Vilas rather low mainly on one basis: Most of his clay titles came at the expense of 2nd-tier players. In fact he never was able to trouble a prime Borg except in that sole win at the '80 Nations Cup. A pre-prime Lendl, on the other hand, was able to push Borg to 5 sets in the '81 FO final. (And yes, I do know Vilas beat Lendl twice in ‘82, but Ivan got the last laugh with a superior 7-5 H2H on clay, the other three losses incurred in ’80.) Doubt Vilas' peak > Muster’s or Courier’s—or Fed's, for that matter. This is also why I don’t think Nastase and Panatta are up there. Peter Bodo actually once said that the supposedly great clay-courters of the ‘70s (save Panatta, who constantly sought to attack even on clay), had nothing that could hurt Borg, whereas now there are many players who do have the weapons to hurt Nadal but he’s simply much better. Something to think about before we rate Borg’s competition. Anyway Vilas’ prolific clay resume can’t be denied, so I put him a notch above Bruguera and Federer.

2) Connors deserves an honorary mention for making 4 FO SFs and QFs. He might have snatched a trophy from Borg (most likely in ’74—don’t see him winning after that) had he been allowed to compete at RG from ’74-‘78.

3) I agree with those who argued that Fed should be placed higher than Ferrero. One thing that struck me about this issue, though, is that some of you were comparing Fed and Ferrero in their respective primes. Actually, I’m not so sure we ever got to see Ferrero in his prime, just as I’m not sure we got to see Kuerten in his prime on HCs and grass. Both players’ careers were cut short by injuries, and who knows how much more they would’ve achieved not just on clay but on other surfaces, too. But we have to assess what did happen, and I might put Ferrero above Fed if JCF’s peak level was clearly superior, but I don’t see such a big gap. So Fed above JCF.

As for Guga, I do feel his peak could be above Lendl’s and Wilander’s, but the clay resume of either of the two ‘80s titans is richer by at least half a dozen titles. Besides they had each other as rivals, whereas Guga didn’t have such a formidable rival on his runs to the finish lines. I guess some could say Guga had to face a greater # of very good and great clay-courters, but a closer look reveals it’s not as clear-cut as that. By ’97 Bruguera was slightly past his prime, and Muster had revamped his game with flatter strokes to focus on HCs, which did pay off but not on clay. (BTW I think it was the ’97 FO, not ’96, that was Sampras’ best chance at his career Grand Slam, but I digress.) Guga also had to defeat Kafelnikov and Ferrero in the ’00 and ’01 QFs and SFs (yes, he did face the same two players in the same rounds two straight years), and Norman and Corretja in the ’00 and ’01 finals respectively, but none of them are all-time clay greats, at least not in the top 10. And though Guga did lose to Medvedev having the best 13 days of his life in ’99 (the frustratingly talented but underachieving Muscovite should’ve won the whole thing that year, but choked in the last 3 sets of the final against Agassi), the same can be said of Noah in ’83. So it’s actually a close call, and one can argue for Kuerten on the basis of tougher overall competition, higher peak level and the fact that Lendl and Wilander met in only 2 FO finals. Think I’ll stick with my current ranking unless someone shows me I missed something important.

4) Speaking of peak level, I can’t help but chuckle when I see some breathtakingly erudite experts place Muster below Courier, Bruguera and even Federer just ‘cause he won only 1 FO, his 40 clay titles be damned. Tell you what: There’s only one clay-courter since the ‘90s that on whom I’d bet to take down Muster at his peak, and his name is Raphael Nadal. Even Guga would have to be at his flamboyant best to break down the wall that was Muster’s defense, as he wouldn’t be able to exploit his BH which was one of the very few 1HBHs that could handle high topspin balls with utter ease and then some. (The same, of course, can’t be said of Federer’s own 1HBH.)

And what makes this revisionism even more amazing is the trope that Muster underachieved at RG. No, Muster did not “underachieve” at RG, if you’re referring to his 4th-round exit from the ’96 FO. What he did do was to run into Stich who could blow anyone off the court on any surface on his best days, and that he exactly did to Muster, from the baseline. Stich wasn’t the player Sampras feared most for nothing. But let’s just go by the # of Slam trophies. Seems to be the genius logic around here.

5) I place Courier above Bruguera largely because the former’s best beats the latter’s. Sergi was a very, very talented player, but I felt he just never lived up to his potential. He had actually very good hands at the net and could smack FH winners if he wanted, but he simply chose to retrieve like a Spaniel. Too bad. And that’s why I place him alongside Federer.

BTW some of you seem to have this notion that Courier was a non-factor after ’93. Eh, not quite. What happened was that there was this man named Pete Sampras who not only happened to be the best player of his generation, but also the first player who, according to Jim’s former coach Jose Higueras, figured out how to exploit Courier’s huge FH by precisely serving out wide to his FH side. And even so Jim didn’t go down with a whimper. Their ’95 AO QF 5-setter was a classic, not just for that famous weeping incident, and of course there’s that another 5-setter in the ’96 FO QF. Now I know some, apparently having a photographic memory of the match, point to Courier’s poor showings in clay events right before that year’s FO as the evidence that he was way past his prime. Actually, Jim usually didn’t fare so well before the FO, even in the years he won the title. If you can, watch the match again and you’ll see that given his level of play in the QF he had a very good chance at his 3rd FO title without Sampras stopping him again (unless Stich kept up his form from early rounds). It’s pretty impressive that Pete came back from 2 sets down (again), ‘cause he wasn’t moving all that well in the 1st 2 sets compared to how he moved just the previous round. Probably his best win on clay, apart from the ’95 DC finals.

Excellent post! Are you sure you're a new user?:)
 
According to Wilander, Federer's one of the 5 best clay courters of the open era. Not by results, which have been "ruined" by Nadal, but by actual level of play.
 

clayman2000

Hall of Fame
1. Borg
2. Nadal
3. Lendl
4. Wilander
5. Kuerton
6. Courier
7. Vilas
8. Federer
9. Muster
10. Brugera

Lendl is over Wilander because Lendls 3 titles were over 4 years. Wilanders were spread out over 7...Also Lendl won a lot of Clay WTC's

Kuerton and Courier are over Vilas because their peaks were a lot better than Vilas.

Federer is over Muster and Brugera. I have Fed over Muster because Muster only made 3 QF at RG in his whole life. Only 1 final. While he has a lot of clay Masters. The fact that he had 1R, 2R, 4R and 3R exits at RG in his prime say he was not made for the big show.

Fed is over Brugera because Brugeras draws were very easy. Both years he won his only good wins were against Medvedev, his whipping boy, and Courier, who was beginning to loose steam
 

pmerk34

Legend
1. Borg
2. Nadal
3. Lendl
4. Wilander
5. Kuerton
6. Courier
7. Vilas
8. Federer
9. Muster
10. Brugera

Lendl is over Wilander because Lendls 3 titles were over 4 years. Wilanders were spread out over 7...Also Lendl won a lot of Clay WTC's

Kuerton and Courier are over Vilas because their peaks were a lot better than Vilas.

Federer is over Muster and Brugera. I have Fed over Muster because Muster only made 3 QF at RG in his whole life. Only 1 final. While he has a lot of clay Masters. The fact that he had 1R, 2R, 4R and 3R exits at RG in his prime say he was not made for the big show.

Fed is over Brugera because Brugeras draws were very easy. Both years he won his only good wins were against Medvedev, his whipping boy, and Courier, who was beginning to loose steam


Umm Brugera beat Courier in the 1993 final. Courier had never lost to him up to that point and had not lost any steam. That was a great win for Sergi and really an inexplicable loss for Jim. Sometimes, as in all sports the better player does not come out on top.

That loss clouded Couriers place in history because he would have had three in a row.
 

tintin

Professional
better question is where does the former "GOAT" Pete Sampras rank amongst the best clay court players on clay?
and can we please compare his results on clay to those of Federer's
 

crazylevity

Hall of Fame
So in summary:

Most people generally would rank Federer between 7th and 10th among the open era claycourters. I think that's pretty good for his worst surface, considering clay has long been the domain of specialists. Only Agassi and Federer have won the FO while winning more slams elsewhere.
 
D

Deleted member 21996

Guest
Well Ferrero definitely rates over Agassi on clay IMO. Agassi's only edge is 1 more French Open final but they have the same #1 of French Open titles (1 each), and Ferrero has 3 Masters titles on clay to Agassi's 1. Ferrero also has 8 total titles on the surface to Agassi's 7 although that isnt any significant. Ferrero has won the prestigious Monte Carlo twice which Agassi never reached the final in. Both have won Rome once. The superior performance of Ferrero in Masters events is the big difference for me. If Agassi had a 2nd French Open title which Ferrero doesnt it would probably be different but isnt the case of course. Also that Ferrero in 2002-2003 was considered by almost everyone the best clay courter in the World despite his upset loss in the French Open final of 2003. Was there ever a point Agassi was considered the best in the World on clay? Lendl was considered that up until 1990 even though he skipped the French tha year. Courier was considered that from 1991-1993. Kuerten was considered the best clay courter in the World from 1999-2001 even though Agassi won the French in a big upset in 1999.

Now while Ferrero over Agassi is an easy call IMO, Moya and Corretja are less so. Moya's French Open performance is clearly below Agassi's overall. At the same time both have 1 title each there. However Moya has won both Monte Carlo and Rome in his career, unlike Agassi. Moya also has 16 career titles on clay, an amazing # and double Agassi's. Moya whooped Kuerten 6-0, 6-2 in Kuerten's prime on clay. This is a closer call than Agassi vs Ferrero but I sided with Moya by a hair. Again if Agassi had a 2nd French Open title it would be different.

Now there is Corretja. Actually breaking it down closer Corretja perhaps shouldnt be over Agassi. He does not have a French Open title, two finals which is one less than Agassi. He also has only 1 Masters title like Agassi, although he has 4 Masters finals and better overall performance in them than Agassi. He does have 10 titles on clay to Agassi's 7 too. Still probably Agassi should be over Corretja without a French Open title to his name.

Alot of it just goes down to my personal feeling too. I do feel Ferrero, Moya, and Corretja are the slightly better clay courters. When 1 of them played Agassi on clay, even if it was Moya or Corretja in the late 90s, I always felt that Agassi would probably lose. That isnt to say he couldnt win but it wasnt what I expected would happen.

fair enough... but we will have to agree to disagree. they all might be more natural clay courters (very true) but none of them as acomplished better than agassi IMO
 
T

TheMagicianOfPrecision

Guest
According to Wilander, Federer's one of the 5 best clay courters of the open era. Not by results, which have been "ruined" by Nadal, but by actual level of play.
By actual level of play federer would be no 2
 

Steve132

Professional
So in summary:

Most people generally would rank Federer between 7th and 10th among the open era claycourters. I think that's pretty good for his worst surface, considering clay has long been the domain of specialists. Only Agassi and Federer have won the FO while winning more slams elsewhere.

That's a fair summary. I have him at no. 7:

1. Borg
2. Nadal
3. Lendl
4. Wilander
5. Kuerten
6. Vilas
7. Federer
8. Muster
9. Courier
10. Bruguera

Borg and Nadal are clearly above all other players. Lendl and Wilander are next. Not much separate them, and they had to face each other in their primes. Kuerten was very good but not nearly as consistent as Lendl and Wilander, and he did not have to face a player of comparable quality. The argument that he would have achieved more if he had not been injured does not impress me. Players are judged on the basis of what they accomplished, not on what they might have done if circumstances had been different.

Vilas is similar to Federer in that he was a great clay court player who was dominated by an even better one. As for Federer, he has been remarkably consistent over an extended period. In the last five years his record at the French Open is 30-4, 0-4 against Nadal and 30-0 against all other players. He has won as many Masters titles on clay (5) as Agassi, Bruguera, Courier and Kafelnikov combined, and two of those victories were against Nadal in finals. His winning percentage on clay over this period is about the same as his winning percentage on hard courts.

Muster, Courier and Bruguera all had very short careers at the top, and this is reflected in my rankings. For a couple of seasons Muster was as dominant on clay as anyone, but he was not nearly as successful at Roland Garros as you might expect. I doubt very much whether any of the three would have been more successful against Nadal than Federer has been.
 

asafi2

Rookie
Out of all those players listed I believe Federer is the only one to make 5 straight Roland Garros SF...
 

Ambivalent

Hall of Fame
Whilst Federer has better longevity on clay Ferrero's peak shines brighter imo. They both have 1 French but the fact that Roger has never won Monte Carlo or Rome hurts him imo.

Federer should be in the top 5. The fact that he was in Nadal's era and still pulled a few clay titles says something.
 

Enigma_87

Professional
Federer should be in the top 5. The fact that he was in Nadal's era and still pulled a few clay titles says something.

I think gamewise you're right. And I agree with Wilander who put him top five when it comes to his clay game.

I mean besides his 2-9 H2H with Nadal on clay, there have been some top matches.

Especially in 06' when he had match points in Rome and was 4-1 up in the final set, at RG and MC he missed opportunities to at least take it to 5 sets. Not to mention 07 RG when he missed 16/17 BP's and had like 5% BP conversion rate.

I mean with the exception of the last year blowout they were all pretty competitive matches and with little luck here and there Fed could've edged on 1 or two occasions to make it more even like (3-8,4-7). Nadal is clearly superior on clay, but that should be taken into consideration imo.

And the pure quality of the game in this match was epic:
Rome 06'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE6WomUb-I8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1MyD3WZZIM
 
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