Where does Federer rank on clay in open era?

Where does Fed rank on clay in open era?

  • Top 5

    Votes: 28 37.8%

  • Top 6-10

    Votes: 27 36.5%

  • Top 11-15

    Votes: 11 14.9%

  • Outside top 15

    Votes: 8 10.8%
  • Total voters
    74
  • Poll closed .
clout

clout

Hall of Fame
Roger Federer might be the hardest player to rank among clay court greats, but here's his CC resume:
1 RG title
5 RG finals (including 4 straight between 06-09)
6 clay masters (all of them in Madrid/Hamburg) + several other masters finals
214-68 overall record (76%)
65-16 overall record at RG (80%)
11 overall titles
7 "big titles"
Longest win streak: 14-match streak in 2009
Played against the greatest clay player ever (Rafa), as well as another GOAT candidate (Novak)

I'd have to assume he'd be top 10 in open era, but I'm not sure if he's too 10 if we include all time.

Where do u guys think the Swiss Maestro ranks on clay?
 
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Good question. Looking 15 years back untill this moment, I see him right behind Rafa and Novak.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
 
Here is one if fed does not want his ass kicked in his ahem old age he needs to retire OR fed fans need to have a permanent seat and stfu. Fini.
 
  1. Nadal
  2. Borg
  3. Lendl
  4. Kuerten
  5. Wilander
Have to be ranked above him.

I'd also put Courier and Bruguera above him, I don't rate Vilas that highly but I think he deserves a spot over Federer as well. And then there's guys like Djokovic, Muster, Ferrero maybe Kodes that you could make arguments for. He's probably around 8th-12th.
 
Best clay players of all time:

1. Rafael Nadal (11 RG)
2. Bjorn Borg (6 RG)
3. Ivan Lendl (3 RG)
4. Mats Wilander (3 RG)
5. Gustavo Kuerten (3 RG and 1-0 against peak Federer at Roland Garros)
6. Jack Kodes (2 RG)
7. Jim Courier (2 RG)
8. Sergui Bruguera (2 RG)
9. Rod Laver (2 RG)
10. Ken Rosewall (2 RG)
11. Djokovic (1 RG, 8 Masters 1000 on clay, has defeated Nadal at RG).
12. Roger Federer (1 RG, 6 Masters 1000 on clay, never defeated Nadal at RG).
 
NatF said:
  1. Nadal
  2. Borg
  3. Lendl
  4. Kuerten
  5. Wilander
Have to be ranked above him.

I'd also put Courier and Bruguera above him, I don't rate Vilas that highly but I think he deserves a spot over Federer as well. And then there's guys like Djokovic, Muster, Ferrero maybe Kodes that you could make arguments for. He's probably around 8th-12th.
Click to expand...
And Max Decugis? He has 8 RG.
 
I guess top 10 and I would rank Novak slightly ahead because he had more success against Nadal. It's hard to assess Fed and Novak on clay because they had to face Nadal again and again. It's not unreasonable to assume they would have won RG multiple times in a different era and that they're better than several players with more titles. I don't think number of titles is always the end all be all argument. Context matters
 
First of all, kudos for just going Open era, instead of trying to ask about all time, and cutting history off 20 years ago :D

Anyway, like you say he really is very tough to rank. I think NatF has got the top 5 above almost indisputably. The only other one I'd put undeniably over him would be Vilas, and from that point on the question is whether you go with the titles won by those guys in the post-Lendl/Wilander pre-Guga era or all of the close calls he (and Novak) had with Nadal.

So, highest would be 7, I guess at worst he could be behind Djokovic, Bruguera, and Courier. Not sure I could really put him behind the likes of Muster, Ferrero, Moya, Nastase, Kodes... His record at Roland Garros is way too good, and the amount of finals he's lost to Nadal on the surface way too high for me to think he'd have too much trouble with those guys, who good as they often were in Rome/Monte Carlo, etc. have got far less good looking records at the biggest clay tournament in the world.

So, yeah, somewhere between 7 and 10.
 
Sport said:
Best clay players of all time:

1. Rafael Nadal (11 RG)
2. Bjorn Borg (6 RG)
3. Ivan Lendl (3 RG)
4. Mats Wilander (3 RG)
5. Gustavo Kuerten (3 RG and 1-0 against peak Federer at Roland Garros)
6. Jack Kodes (2 RG)
7. Jim Courier (2 RG)
8. Sergui Bruguera (2 RG)
9. Rod Laver (2 RG)
10. Ken Rosewall (2 RG)
11. Djokovic (1 RG, 8 Masters 1000 on clay, has defeated Nadal at RG).
12. Roger Federer (1 RG, 6 Masters 1000 on clay, never defeated Nadal at RG).
Click to expand...

None of those beat Rafa at RG and none of them could except for Novak once. Roger would have 6 RG titles if it weren't for Rafa. Roger would have destroyed lendl and everyone else on that list except for Borg. I don't know if he could have beaten Borg using wood racquets. From a pure talent standpoint, he definitely would be in the top 5. From a results stand point, he would be in 6-8.
 
Sport said:
Best clay players of all time:

1. Rafael Nadal (11 RG)
2. Bjorn Borg (6 RG)
3. Ivan Lendl (3 RG)
4. Mats Wilander (3 RG)
5. Gustavo Kuerten (3 RG and 1-0 against peak Federer at Roland Garros)
6. Jack Kodes (2 RG)
7. Jim Courier (2 RG)
8. Sergui Bruguera (2 RG)
9. Rod Laver (2 RG)
10. Ken Rosewall (2 RG)
11. Djokovic (1 RG, 8 Masters 1000 on clay, has defeated Nadal at RG).
12. Roger Federer (1 RG, 6 Masters 1000 on clay, never defeated Nadal at RG).
Click to expand...

This is just a titles-based ranking, but it ignores exactly how well a player has been able to play on clay. We all agree that Nadal is #1, but Rafas activity has affected the results of all the other players that were active in the same time period.

My feeling is that Federer and Djokovic's level on clay has been higher than Courier, Wilander and even Kuerten. Federers level on clay improved substantially in the years following his match with Kuerten in 2004 and it's a bit narrow minded to say that it determines his overall clay ranking.

It's like saying that Rosol, Muller, Brown, Kyrgios, Darcis, Srichaphan, Kohlshreiber, Lopez, Dolgopolov, and Mahut should all be ranked higher than Nadal on grass.
 
He lost 5 times to Nadal where 4/5 he should have won the FO if not for Nadal

This forum is troll time for some.

The same case can be made in some instance that Nadal is a very good grass courter because if not for Federer he would have won 2 more Wimbledons, having 4 right Wimbledon trophies.
"Nah bro Nadal doesn't rank on grass because he lost to Darcis"
 
If I had to come up with a top 10 clay player list it'd probably be:
1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Wilander
4. Lendl
5. Kuerten
6. Djokovic (his record against Nadal is the best by anyone and he won 2+ titles at all 3 masters tournaments)
7. Federer
8. Vilas (he won all 3/4 of his slams on clay)
9. Courier
10. Bruguera

Fed is solidly behind Nadal, Borg, Wilander, Lendl, Kuerten and even Novak IMO. So he'd probably be between 7-11 as he has an argument over Vilas, Bruguera and Courier and he's definitely well above Muster as Muster was a massive underachiever at RG. There's no question he'd be a lot higher had he not run into Nadal so many times though. I usually take that into consideration quite a bit, which is why I put him at 7. I usually apply this as well when ranking Nadal on grass/Wimbledon cuz he ran into 2006-08 Fed and 2011 Djokovic in all his finals at Wimby.
 
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Rosstour said:
Statistically Fed is the 2nd-winningest player of all time on clay. So, that's where he is for me.

Bad luck for him that he played in the era of the 1st. Otherwise we're looking at potentially 5-6 titles for him at RG (he lost to Rafa in 2005 there too, just not in the Final)
Click to expand...
Lol
 
Like Cilic on HC.. good once in a blue moon.. Wawrinka brought in a higher level. Ferrer and Djokovic were consistent but they all seemed more comfortable on HC than in clay

That sums u the clay era
 
5-10 best ever. I can only comfortably put Nadal, Borg, Lendl and Kuerten. Next I have Fed and Nole joint 5th (Nole slightly ahead in achievements, Fed slightly ahead in peak level)
 
paranoidandroid said:
In a hypothetical world in which Nadal doesn’t exist (@vive le beau jeu ! rejoice) he would be the clay GOAT or maybe just slightly behind Borg but in reality he’s outside the top 10.

Bummer.
Click to expand...
200.webp
 
Mark jd said:
He won 3 RG titles, hard to ignore that.
Click to expand...
I have started player threads on Guga and how underapreciated he is and what might have been if it wasn't for his bloody hip. The fact remains however, that Federer reached a level on clay in the mid 2000s with that enormous weakness of a backhand that will never be matched by anyone. We really need to accommodate the potential for federer to have changed racquets earlier in his career and sustain the backhand we saw in 2017.

Federer is the only tennis player in history to make such enormous changes to his game and remain relevant its just too bad some of those changes were made so late his legs can no longer keep up with his mind.
 
Fed Mafia
If not for Clay God, Fed would would be tied for clay GOAT with Borg/Djokovic.

Nad Mafia
If not for Grass/Hard court Gods, Nad would be GOAT.

Tennis Fans
Fed, Nadal and Djokovic have just given us the best decade of tennis.

Rinse.
Repeat.
Recycle.
Redo.
Rerun.
 
clout said:
Roger Federer might be the hardest player to rank among clay court greats, but here's his CC resume:
1 RG title
5 RG finals (including 4 straight between 06-09)
6 clay masters (all of them in Madrid/Hamburg) + several other masters finals
214-68 overall record (76%)
65-16 overall record at RG (80%)
11 overall titles
7 "big titles"
Longest win streak: 12-match streak in 2009
Played against the greatest clay player ever (Rafa), as well as another GOAT candidate (Novak)

I'd have to assume he'd be top 10 in open era, but I'm not sure if he's too 10 if we include all time.

Where do u guys think the Swiss Maestro ranks on clay?
Click to expand...
Easily top 5 since 1991 and I'd rate him 3 narrowly behind Djokovic, peak to peak these two measure ahead of even groundbreaking players like Courier and Kuerten (big serve games). Not bad for Fed's worst surface.;)

Peak Elo on clay:
1 1 ESP ESP Rafael Nadal Active 24-02-2014 Rio de Janeiro 2014 2664
2 1 SWE SWE Bjorn Borg 28-09-1981 Geneva 1981 2631
3 1 USA USA Ivan Lendl 16-05-1988 Rome 1988 2546
4 1 SRB SRB Novak Djokovic Active 06-06-2016 Roland Garros 2016 2535
5 1 ARG ARG Guillermo Vilas 28-11-1977 Buenos Aires 1977 2486
6 2 ARG ARG Jose Luis Clerc 09-10-1981 US Open 1981 2443
7 1 AUT AUT Thomas Muster 29-04-1996 Monte Carlo Masters 1996 2443
8 2 SUI SUI Roger Federer Active 25-09-2009 Davis Cup WG 2009 2442
9 2 USA USA Jimmy Connors 13-08-1979 Indianapolis 1979 2439
10 1 SWE SWE Mats Wilander 31-07-1987 Bastad 1987 2426
11 1 AUS AUS Ken Rosewall 10-06-1968 Roland Garros 1968 2410
12 3 GBR GBR Andy Murray Active 06-06-2016 Roland Garros 2016 2406
13 1 AUS AUS Rod Laver 11-06-1969 Roland Garros 1969 2395
14 1 ROU ROU Ilie Nastase 15-10-1973 Barcelona 1973 2390
15 1 BRA BRA Gustavo Kuerten 23-07-2001 Stuttgart 2001 2384
16 1 ESP ESP Sergi Bruguera 08-08-1994 Prague 1994 2377
 
Well @125downthemiddle , this is really where we have to look behind the numbers isnt it? ;). Fedovic would have what, 4-5 titles each if not for one player, the unbeatable clay-god himself? Instead its 1-3 and 1-4 in finals results.
 
Jonas78 said:
Well @125downthemiddle , this is really where we have to look behind the numbers isnt it? ;). Fedovic would have what, 4-5 titles each if not for one player, the unbeatable clay-god himself? Instead its 1-3 and 1-4 in finals results.
Click to expand...

1-0 would be better in this instance.

Kidding ;)
 
Hydrocella said:
Fed Mafia
If not for Clay God, Fed would would be tied for clay GOAT with Borg/Djokovic.

Nad Mafia
If not for Grass/Hard court Gods, Nad would be GOAT.

Tennis Fans
Fed, Nadal and Djokovic have just given us the best decade of tennis.

Rinse.
Repeat.
Recycle.
Redo.
Rerun.
Click to expand...
Well i see your point, but it isnt quite right. Djokovic & Federer was (almost) only stopped by Nadal at FO in their prime. The same can not be said about Nadal off-clay. Federer stopped him zero times in 2008-2013, Djoker three times.
 
rockbox said:
None of those beat Rafa at RG. Roger would have 6 RG titles if it weren't for Rafa.he would be in 6-8.
Click to expand...
Untestable claims, therefore irrelevants for a serius tennis debate. How can I refute the claim "Roger would have 6 RG if not for Rafa"? Or how can I refute your claim that "Nadal would never lose to Borg, Lendl, Wilander, Kuerten, Laver or Rosewall at RG". Those are untestable (hence irrefutable) claims but not necessarily true. That's like claming "Nadal would have 5 Wimbledon titles if not for Djokovic and Federer, while Laver would have 0 Wimbledon titles against Federer and Djokovic, therefore Nadal >>>> Laver on grass" another irrefutable (but not necessarily true) claim.

You're assuming Fed would not have lost to Puerta in 2005, Djokovic in 2006, 2007 and 2008, and Murray in 2011. You're also assuming Nadal would never lose to Borg, Lendl, Wilander, Kuerten, Laver or Rosewall. Those are unfalsifiable claims (meaning they can't be proved false), therefore invalid. No single obervation can refute your claims (and it doesn't mean they are true).


Example of falsifiable claim:
-"Nadal will win Wimbledon 2019". If Nadal doesn't win Wimbledon in 2019, the claim is proved false.

Example of unfalsifiable claims:
-"Federer would have 6 RG without Rafa". Since no one can create a time machine, this claim cannot be proved false (and it doesn't mean it is true).

-"Borg, Lendl, Wilander, Kuerten, Laver and Rosewall would never beat Rafa at RG". Since no one can create a time machine, this claim cannot be proved false (and it doesn't mean it is true).
 
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