Where does Federer rank on clay in open era?

[Sport]

hard to ignore that how many wins he would have playing against nadal)

There is no other option but to ignore speculative and untestable scenarios. Otherwise, I could say "hard to ignore how many Wimbledon titles would have won Laver against Federer and Djokovic". Then I could say that Laver would have won 0 Wimbledon titles against Federer and Djokovic, while Nadal would have 5 Wimbledon titles without Federer and Djokovic. Therefore, Nadal > Laver on grass. See the dangers of untestable speculation?

3 >1. Kuerten, Lendl and Wilander are all of them better on clay than Federer. And 4 > 2. Laver is better on grass than Nadal.

Untestable argument= not valid.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

You're assuming Fed would not have lost to Puerta in 2005, Djokovic in 2006, 2007 and 2008, and Murray in 2011.

pretty sure that against djoko in 06,07 and 08 fed would win and with murray the same, djoko was too young and unexperienced and murray no contest, of course no one creates a time machine but we can only make a probability based on our intuition and knowings

 

[hothanded]

Tier 1- Nadal, Borg (Nadal is far ahead of Borg at this point but they still both belong in Tier 1)
Tier 2- Wilander, Lendl, Kuerten
Tier 3- Vilas, Courier, Muster, Bruguera, Djokovic, Federer, Ferrero

Basically Tier 3 can be placed in any order from 6th to 11th. I would probably go with:

6. Courier
7. Bruguera
8. Djokovic
9. Muster
10. Federer
11. Vilas
12. Ferrero

When you compare them they all beat each other in some things and lose in some others. For instance Vilas and Muster destroy everyone in non slam clay tournaments, but clearly lose out on Roland Garros. Courier owned Muster who owned Bruguera who owned Courier in head to head during their time. Ferrero is better than a lot of these in peak and prime level clay play, but clearly last in achievements.

I think Djokovic has to be over Federer though. They are in the same era and Djokovic did better with equal RG records and a significantly better Masters record, and the joint Nadal-Djokovic-Federer head to head is also heavily in Djokovics favor.

Anyone who votes Top 5 is clearly biased as there is absolutely no basis for Federer being over any of Nadal, Borg, Kuerten, Lendl, or Wilander.

 

[Deleted member 756486]

Can’t see the image.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

See the dangers of untestable speculation?

i do see..of course you're right in your way but there's something that not only on paper ...something with hidden subtext, it's only about how we looking at this) skin-deep(on paper) or in-depth

Untestable argument= not valid.

the whole thread is about untestable argument that's why we debating here

 

[Sport]

pretty sure that against djoko in 06,07 and 08 fed would win and with murray the same, djoko was too young and unexperienced and murray no contest, of course no one creates a time machine but we can only make a probability based on our intuition and knowings

Untestable = not valid.

That's like claiming "Nadal would have 5 Wimbledon titles if not for Federer and Djokovic, while Laver would have 0 Wimbledon titles against Federer and Djokovic, therefore Nadal >>>>> Laver on grass".

 

[tennis_pro]

Federer is the GOAT of green clay.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

Untestable = not valid.

That's like claiming "Nadal would have 5 Wimbledon titles if not for Federer and Djokovic, while Laver would have 0 Wimbledon titles against Federer and Djokovic, therefore Nadal >>>>> Laver on grass".

but again everything is untestable here..))nadal def would have much titles if not fed and djok

 

[N01E]

How can he rank behind Djokovic when he beat him at his peak on that surface?

Murry beat peak fed in the real slam.
#murygoat

 

[Zhilady]

Let's see...

Around #10 on red clay.
#1 on blue clay.

So #5, overall, of the Open Era by the average of the two.

 

[metsman]

Federer is below everyone who has won RG besides those MUGS Ferrero, Costa, Gaudio. Wow, look at when they won their titles, surprise surprise....

Hip butchered Guga DESTROYED Federer in his so called peak ROFLMFAO

 

[Pheasant]

Best clay players of all time:

1. Rafael Nadal (11 RG)
2. Bjorn Borg (6 RG)
3. Ivan Lendl (3 RG)
4. Mats Wilander (3 RG)
5. Gustavo Kuerten (3 RG and 1-0 against peak Federer at Roland Garros)
6. Jack Kodes (2 RG)
7. Jim Courier (2 RG)
8. Sergui Bruguera (2 RG)
9. Rod Laver (2 RG)
10. Ken Rosewall (2 RG)
11. Djokovic (1 RG, 8 Masters 1000 on clay, has defeated Nadal at RG).
12. Roger Federer (1 RG, 6 Masters 1000 on clay, never defeated Nadal at RG).

Nice list. I might move Laver up a notch for winning RG at 31 years old after being ineligible for that event for several years. With that being said, this is a great list.

 

[Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil]

Can’t see the image.

 

[metsman]

Best clay players of all time:

1. Rafael Nadal (11 RG)
2. Bjorn Borg (6 RG)
3. Ivan Lendl (3 RG)
4. Mats Wilander (3 RG)
5. Gustavo Kuerten (3 RG and 1-0 against peak Federer at Roland Garros)
6. Jack Kodes (2 RG)
7. Jim Courier (2 RG)
8. Sergui Bruguera (2 RG)
9. Rod Laver (2 RG)
10. Ken Rosewall (2 RG)
11. Djokovic (1 RG, 8 Masters 1000 on clay, has defeated Nadal at RG).
12. Roger Federer (1 RG, 6 Masters 1000 on clay, never defeated Nadal at RG).

Jack Kodes? LMFAO and these are the guys we have making proclamations like who is the greatest of all time. This era is a total FARCE.

 

[Deleted member 756486]

Would be interesting.

Fed would dominate clay from 2005-2011 but Djokovic would probably take control after that.

Unless he meets Stan in finals, of course.

 

[Deleted member 742196]

Well i see your point, but it isnt quite right. Djokovic & Federer was (almost) only stopped by Nadal at FO in their prime. The same can not be said about Nadal off-clay. Federer stopped him zero times in 2008-2013, Djoker three times.

Why specifically those years?

Why are we specifically including Fed’s losses and not Nadal’s in such conjecturing?

In any event, the moment we get into if’s and’s and but’s I’m more of a tennis fan than any one player in particular.

 

[justasport]

Greatest of All Time Clay Rankings:

1. Rafael Nadal
2. Bjorn Borg
3. Ivan Lendl
4. Gustavo Kuerten
5. Guillermo Vilas
6. Mats Wilander
7. Jim Courier
8. Novak Djokovic
9. Thomas Muster
10. Roger Federer

 

[CentreCourt]

Federer dominates every other surface to the point of nobody else winning - weak era with no good champions

Nadal dominates on clay like nobody has ever seen before but apparently there are another two of the ATG top 10 clay players in his generation? Let's be realistic.

It is impossible to categorise how good either Nadal or Djokovic truly are in the all-time clay rankings because Nadal is so much better.

 

[Sudacafan]

Where does Federer rank on clay in open era?

Somewhere below Nadal.

 

[hothanded]

Federer dominates every other surface to the point of nobody else winning - weak era with no good champions

Nadal dominates on clay like nobody has ever seen before but apparently there are another two of the ATG top 10 clay players in his generation? Let's be realistic.

It is impossible to categorise how good either Nadal or Djokovic truly are in the all-time clay rankings because Nadal is so much better.

It is not ATG, it is just Open Era.

Djokovic is the #2 hard courter of the Open Era after only Fed and Nadal is probably top 5, and on grass all 3 of Djokovic, Murray, Nadal might make top 10. So it is not like there arent people from this era ranking high in the Open Era on other surfaces too.

Where this era is weak is depth, but it has ATGs on all surfaces.

 

[captainbryce]

I think some folks give a little bit too much emphasis on the French Open title when evaluating clay court players in terms of skill and ability. Bruguera and Courier for example have 2 French Opens, while Djokovic and Federer only have one. However (IMO) Federer and Djokovic are clearly superior on clay as both have made many more clay finals and won more clay masters. And they did that in the Nadal era!

1 Nadal
2 Borg
3 Lendl
4 Wilander
5 Kuerten
6 Djokovic
7 Federer
8 Muster
9 Bruguera
10 Courier

Wilander has a better record on clay than Kuerten does, and while Federer has made more French Open finals than Djokovic, Djokovic has won more masters titles on clay, and has beaten Nadal way more times on clay than Federer has (7-2).

 

[Jonas78]

Why specifically those years?

Why are we specifically including Fed’s losses and not Nadal’s in such conjecturing?

In any event, the moment we get into if’s and’s and but’s I’m more of a tennis fan than any one player in particular.

Just said those years because they are considered Rafas prime. My points was that it is a very strange situation; that 2 players have been "robbed" by 3-4 slams each, by the same player, at the same slam. It has to be taken into consideration when Djokovic and Federers clay skill are being assessed.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

Just said those years because they are considered Rafas prime. My points was that it is a very strange situation; that 2 players have been "robbed" by 3-4 slams each, by the same player, at the same slam. It has to be taken into consideration when Djokovic and Federer clay skill are being assessed.

Who do you rank higher on clay, Federer or Djok?

 

[NoleFam]

The top 5 is Nadal, Borg, Lendl, Kuerten and Wilander without a doubt. I'm not sure why top 5 is leading the poll.

 

[Jonas78]

Just said those years because they are considered Rafas prime. My points was that it is a very strange situation; that 2 players have been "robbed" by 3-4 slams each, by the same player, at the same slam. It has to be taken into consideration when Djokovic and Federers clay skill are being assessed.

Wow thats tough, i really dont know. Its 4-3 Djokovic isnt it? I would say its a really tough call. Djoker has beaten Rafa on FO and has a better H2H vs him. But Federer beat Djoker in straights at FO11. Maybe some match up issues? What do you think?

 

[nolefam_2024]

Very low. Voted 11-15. Probably he might be 9/10th.

 

[Nadal_Django]

Wow thats tough, i really dont know. Its 4-3 Djokovic isnt it? I would say its a really tough call. Djoker has beaten Rafa on FO and has a better H2H vs him. But Federer beat Djoker in straights at FO11. Maybe some match up issues? What do you think?

So when you argue about Federer being greater at AO you find their AO H2H to be irrelevant, but here at RG the H2H is of crucial importance. Lol

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Realistically Fed & Djoker in their day are two of the best ever on clay but the reality is that history only remembers titles.

Just ask Rafa at Wimby (2 titles out of 5 finals) or AO (1 title out of 4 finals)

 

[maratha_warrior]

So when you argue about Federer being greater at AO you find their AO H2H to be irrelevant, but here at RG the H2H is of crucial importance. Lol

Even at RG djoker Fed H2H is 1-1

 

[Jonas78]

So when you argue about Federer being greater at AO you find their AO H2H to be irrelevant, but here at RG the H2H is of crucial importance. Lol

I didnt say Fedr is greater at AO i said its a tough call, and i take into account a lot of factors when i say that. 2011-2016 is advantage Djokovic in their H2H because its more Djokers prime than Feds. Djokovic was a monster at AO 2011-2016, but reaching the SF or deeper 15 years in a row barring 2015 isnt bad either? And beating Djokovic at FO in one of his best years ever (2011) has to count for something doesnt it?

 

[ForumMember]

How can he rank behind Djokovic when he beat him at his peak on that surface?

Going by that logic I'll put Rafa above Federer on grass as he did beat him on his peak in 2008 at W of all places.

 

[ForumMember]

Federer's only RG title comes with a big asterix to it. That asterix to be counted somehow before we put him at any place on this list.

 

[Jonas78]

Federer's only RG title comes with a big asterix to it. That asterix to be counted somehow before we put him at any place on this list.

Djokovic also won his only FO title without having to dedeat Nadal? I dont see the difference, Rafa pulled out with injury.

 

[Nadal_Django]

Even at RG djoker Fed H2H is 1-1

Yeah I know, but isn't it funny how all these Federer fans are arguing that despite all the overwhelming beatings that Djoker gave to Fed over the years in Melbourne, Federer is still better than Djokovic at the AO because he has 3 more 1/4 finals there, 6 more 3rd rounds, and 27 more 2nd rounds, while on clay yeah Djoker has better results overall than Fed, more masters titles, better results against Rafa, yeah good for Djokovic, but that match in 2011, ehh...

 

[Deleted member 716271]

I think you could make the argument that Federer has been better at RG than Djokovic---just by a bit, and it would be a fair argument.

On clay as a whole, I think Djokovic is clearly ahead of Federer.

 

[Druss]

11th

 

[Druss]

11th

...but but if Nadal wasn't around he'd have won at least 5 French Opens!

...but but if Federer wasn't around Roddick would be sitting on 5-6 slams and be just about considered an ATG!

 

[Gary Duane]

Top 5 is too high. That would be from Fed fans only. You want to pick players who were best on clay, and there have been some beasts.

Start with Nadal and Borg. That puts Fed #3. There are at least 2 players from the 90s who have to be looked at, then Lendl, Wilander, a few others. You can't give Fed a free pass because he played in the same era as Nadal. If you do that, you have to look carefully at Djokovic.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

Top 5 is too high

if fed could take 3 additional titles had he been played other guy than nadal..would it make him higher than kuerten on this list of all time greats?

 

[Jonas78]

if fed could take 3 additional titles had he been played other guy than nadal..would it make him higher than kuerten on this list of all time greats?

I will argue that probably noone has had it tougher than Fred at FO. From 05-08 it was peak Rafa. He was given a break in 09 and won it. In 10 he was stopped by the only man who beat peak-Rafa at FO. In 11 he beat peak-Djokovic but was again stopped by Rafa. In 2012 he lost to peak-Djoker. After 2012 his good clay-days were over...

Im not saying Djokovic didnt also have it tough, but he had it easier on clay 2014-2016 than Fred ever had during his good days. This was Nadals weakest period and Federer wasnt the clay player he used to be anymore.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

Djokovic also won his only FO title without having to dedeat Nadal? I dont see the difference, Rafa pulled out with injury.

maybe difference is how close their matches used to be(fed-rafa and djok-rafa)

 

[Jonas78]

maybe difference is how close their matches used to be(fed-rafa and djok-rafa)

Fred also took sets from Rafa at FO barring 2008, where Federer suck1d and Nadal probably had his best clay season ever. Fred has also beat Nads on clay.

Also, there are match up issues. Djokovic playing more even with Nads on clay doesnt have to mean Djokovic > Federer. A good example is HC with Stan, Federer and Djokovic. Federer has never lost to Stan, while Stan is match up trouble for Djokovic. Doesnt mean Fed > Djokovic on HC.

 

[Sudacafan]

Tier 1- Nadal, Borg (Nadal is far ahead of Borg at this point but they still both belong in Tier 1)
Tier 2- Wilander, Lendl, Kuerten
Tier 3- Vilas, Courier, Muster, Bruguera, Djokovic, Federer, Ferrero

Basically Tier 3 can be placed in any order from 6th to 11th. I would probably go with:

6. Courier
7. Bruguera
8. Djokovic
9. Muster
10. Federer
11. Vilas
12. Ferrero

When you compare them they all beat each other in some things and lose in some others. For instance Vilas and Muster destroy everyone in non slam clay tournaments, but clearly lose out on Roland Garros. Courier owned Muster who owned Bruguera who owned Courier in head to head during their time. Ferrero is better than a lot of these in peak and prime level clay play, but clearly last in achievements.

I think Djokovic has to be over Federer though. They are in the same era and Djokovic did better with equal RG records and a significantly better Masters record, and the joint Nadal-Djokovic-Federer head to head is also heavily in Djokovics favor.

Anyone who votes Top 5 is clearly biased as there is absolutely no basis for Federer being over any of Nadal, Borg, Kuerten, Lendl, or Wilander.

About the clay Fed-Nole comparison, what is their clay H2H? And their RG H2H?

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

About the clay Fed-Nole comparison, what is their clay H2H? And their RG H2H?

4-4 and 1-1.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

About the clay Fed-Nole comparison, what is their clay H2H? And their RG H2H?

4-4 on clay

 

[FHtennisman]

The reason why I can't put Djoker over Fed is because in the years where he was supposedly at his best (2011 and 2015) when he beat Nadal twice each season on the dirt, he couldn't win RG and lost to players other than Rafa.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

A good example is HC with Stan, Federer and Djokovic. Federer has never lost to Stan, while Stan is match up trouble for Djokovic. Doesnt mean Fed > Djokovic on HC.

i wouldn't say it's a good example coz first rafa on clay and stan on HC two big differences by far also it's big deal where rafa on all time greats list and where stan..second: mental moment can be involved..third:we can thinking of numerous set of these matches that will conflict each other

 

[Deleted member 758560]

because in the years where he was supposedly at his best (2011 and 2015) when he beat Nadal twice each season on the dirt, he couldn't win RG and lost to players other than Rafa.

if only looking at only their 2 best years in a career then fed 16-3 and 15-2..djoko 16-1 and 19-1 ..it appears to be that djoko stats more impressive

 

[Prabhanjan]

Djokovic above Fed for me.

 

[Eren]

Djokovic is ahead of Federer in achievements. Lists are made based on achievements. Thus, Nadal, Borg, Kuerten, Lendl, Wilander, Courier, Vilas and Djokovic are certainly ahead of Federer on clay.

If it's about peak level, I'd say Federer's peak in 2006 Rome is higher than anything I've seen of Djokovic from 2011-present. Yet, this doesn't mean Federer should rank higher than Djokovic.

Here are my Open Era rankings:

1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Kuerten
4. Lendl
5. Wilander
6. Courier
7. Muster
8. Vilas
9. Federer
10. Novak Djokovic

Why rank Muster (1 RG, 0 RU and 6 Master titles on clay) higher than both Djokovic and Federer.