M
Where does WTF stand?
- Thread starter Omega_7000
- Start date
Firing Forehand
Rookie
What you are doing is silly and disingenuous. We're talking about how the events rank individually. You're combining three events and comparing them with one.
Of course it is. Just look at the winner's list. The very best players in the world win this event, repeatedly. If you've been following tennis for very long you know very well how seriously the players take, and have always taken, this event. These guys do not want to lose to their top-8 peers! Nadal's entire family shows up for WTF, and for no other tournament, which tells me that he also takes it seriously, regardless of what his more ardent fans might delude themselves into believing.
Oh really? So Nicolas Massu is a surefire Hall of Famer?
sbengte
G.O.A.T.
And Marc Rosset. When you say Tennis and Switzerland, the first name that comes to mind is Marc Rosset. Try asking anyone anywhere in the world.
The Dark Knight
Legend
Here's the one irrefutable reason that the olympics is more important that the WTF.....
In every goat debate in the media on who is goat between Nadal and Fed....the olympics is brought up in the plus column for Nadal and the minis column for Fed.
The WTF is not mentioned.
End of debate .
Nicolas Massu, Marc Rosset
Pete Sampras, Roger Federer, Ivan Lendl
What traits does each group have in common with each player in the group?
The Dark Knight
Legend
Andre Agassi:
"I personally think that Nadal has an argument to be made for the best of all time. If Nadal is sitting at a table with Federer and Federer says, 'I'm the best ever,' my first question would be 'well then how come you didn't beat me because I beat you twice as many times? And, hey, by the way, you know I won everything including gold medal and Davis Cup.'"
"I personally think that Nadal has an argument to be made for the best of all time. If Nadal is sitting at a table with Federer and Federer says, 'I'm the best ever,' my first question would be 'well then how come you didn't beat me because I beat you twice as many times? And, hey, by the way, you know I won everything including gold medal and Davis Cup.'"
The Dark Knight
Legend
Who's the best men's tennis player of all time? It's a debate in which, unlike in golf or basketball, we've got several legit competitors for the throne playing right this very moment. And John McEnroe, himself one of tennis' immortals, is riding hard for Rafael Nadal.
“This guy is to me, I think you can make an argument right here and now, the greatest player that ever lived,” McEnroe said. “If you look at his record against [Andy] Murray, [Roger] Federer, and [Novak] Djokovic, it’s way better than that. He won the Olympics. He’s got Davis Cups, which Roger doesn’t have. I have always said Roger Federer to me was the greatest player that ever lived, certainly the most beautiful player. But I’m going to tell you right here and now there’s a definite argument, I’m starting to lean toward Rafa.”
“This guy is to me, I think you can make an argument right here and now, the greatest player that ever lived,” McEnroe said. “If you look at his record against [Andy] Murray, [Roger] Federer, and [Novak] Djokovic, it’s way better than that. He won the Olympics. He’s got Davis Cups, which Roger doesn’t have. I have always said Roger Federer to me was the greatest player that ever lived, certainly the most beautiful player. But I’m going to tell you right here and now there’s a definite argument, I’m starting to lean toward Rafa.”
Luminaire
Semi-Pro
Gee...how many times have you posted that...you are excruciatingly repetitive.
He also said Davis Cup. So is Davis Cup greater than the WTF, too?
And also: are we getting to pick and choose which former players to quote?
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
+1 whiskey
10 whiskeykeep up the good work.
aye aye captain
I am not trolling :???:
The Dark Knight
Legend
Huffington Post: Could Rafa Nadal Be the Greatest Tennis Player of All Time?
As the match was nearing its conclusion, John McEnroe made the comment that "it's hard to see how Roger could have played much better that he did." Yet Roger lost -- for the 17th time overall to Rafa who Roger has now beaten only 8 times overall. In Grand Slam Finals, Nadal holds a decisive 6-2 edge over Federer. Nadal is also the youngest player of the open era to win a career Grand Slam (winning all four Grand Slam singles titles) and the second male player (Andre Agassi is the other) to win a Career Golden Slam (all four Grand Slams and an Olympic Gold medal). He has also won three Davis Cup Finals as part of the Spanish team, and holds a record 19 ATP World Tour Masters 1000 titles. By comparison, Federer has never won a singles Olympic Gold medal or won a Davis Cup Final for his country Switzerland
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
Olympics is really just a masters event that happens to be played every 4 years during the summer. There's nothing unique about it. 2008 was just a decoturf tournament like Canada and 2012 was like a mini-Wimbledon.
But WTF titles are indicative of indoor prowess and one's ability to compete against the top 8 players in a single tournament. Which is why it's highly important on a player's resume.
Actually, every open era great has won the WTF.
But WTF titles are indicative of indoor prowess and one's ability to compete against the top 8 players in a single tournament. Which is why it's highly important on a player's resume.
Actually, every open era great has won the WTF.
The Dark Knight
Legend
That's your opinion....not the worlds :
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
It's actually a fact.
The Dark Knight
Legend
Fox News : Nadal could be the GOAT
- Nadal owns the career "Golden Slam," which is all four majors and Olympic gold, something Federer has yet to do
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
Just media hype.
The fact is that an olympic medal doesn't prove anything unique regarding your abilities. They could've renamed the 2008 olympics tennis tournament "Beijing masters" and awarded a trophy instead of a medal and no one would've known the difference.
The WTF is a unique tournament that requires particular skills and consistent performance against top players in every match.
Last edited:
The Dark Knight
Legend
Media hype or not....it's still a fact.....
So you think Becker,Sam
Ras Agassi are all media hype as well??
I gotta get some sleep.......luminare you are right I can't win this.
I tried.....I really did,
Firing Forehand
Rookie
Im probing points as a greatness measure are pointless
Mr.Lob
G.O.A.T.
True. But you forgot to add, "End of debate."
RF20Lennon
Legend
http://msn.foxsports.com/tennis/sto...atp-world-tour-finals-for-a-third-time-111113
"His (Djokovic) victory denied Nadal the only big trophy from his resume."
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...word-over-rafael-nadal-at-the-o2-8933636.html
"Year ending championships is a jewel missing from Nadal's crown"
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/02/s...or-nadal.html?pagewanted=2&smid=tw-share&_r=0
“Believe me, for him it’s very, very important,” Santana said. “And I really think Rafa has a great chance this year.”- talking about World Tour Finals!
"For me the World Tour Finals are the absolute pinnacle of our sport" - ROGER FEDERER.
TDK is right in that people right about OG more but I dunno why.
"His (Djokovic) victory denied Nadal the only big trophy from his resume."
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...word-over-rafael-nadal-at-the-o2-8933636.html
"Year ending championships is a jewel missing from Nadal's crown"
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/02/s...or-nadal.html?pagewanted=2&smid=tw-share&_r=0
“Believe me, for him it’s very, very important,” Santana said. “And I really think Rafa has a great chance this year.”- talking about World Tour Finals!
"For me the World Tour Finals are the absolute pinnacle of our sport" - ROGER FEDERER.
TDK is right in that people right about OG more but I dunno why.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
below a slam, below O.S.G. (mainly because its only every 4 years) and very slightly below proper MS tournament (those that are consistently well attended by all the top players).
if it were not a RR format, i would rank it technically higher, but for purely entertainment value RR is better...
if it were not a RR format, i would rank it technically higher, but for purely entertainment value RR is better...
RF20Lennon
Legend
If I were to give my reasons of why I would rate the WTF over OG then it would be this.
These are MY REASONS and MY OPINIONS. Not facts obviously!
1. It is worth significantly more points.
Let's think about this for a second. Tournaments are given ranking points based on their importance and difficulty level. Thats why Slams are given 2000 points. Masters are given 1000 and below that you have 500 and 250 and so on and so forth. Now winning the Olympics will give you 750. Winning the WTF on the other hand gives you 1500. In the Olympics you probably will not meet a top 8 player till at least the QF's. Here, every match you play is against one.
2. You have to QUALIFY for it.
Players have to play year round and gain enough points and end the season within the top 8 to qualify for this event. Almost 10 months of struggle = a spot in this tournament. Not even the slams make you work as hard just to get a spot. Only 8 players out of so many others get a chance to play so the difficulty level just to qualify is HUGE.
3. It gets far more coverage, viewership, sponsorship and spectators than the TENNIS Olympics and fans LOVE IT. (Keep in mind not the Olympics as a whole)
Firstly the 02 Arena is the second biggest arena that tennis is played in only after Arthur Ashe Stadium. It can house 17,500 people. The O2 is mainly used for huge concerts and the fact that they are able to hire the place shows they are making big bucks. When I wanted to watch the Olympic tennis matches, I found myself not being able to find the matches on any channel. ESPN didn't have it, Tennis Channel did not have it, nor did most other sports networks. But for the World Tour Finals ESPN had it, Tennis Channel had it, Skysports had it and so did many others. It shows that it is a much BIGGER event with more fans flocking to see it. Boris Becker said it draws more crowds than he had ever seen in non-slam tournaments and just the overall buzz is amazing. He said its an "instant classic". The Olympics on the other hand.....not really that watched. Tennis Olympics that is. Remember its the FAN BASE that has the last word. They carry everything.
4. Tennis is not a nationalistic sport and the Olympics is turning it into one
The beautiful thing about tennis is that you pick your players based on their style, game and personality. Which is quite different from how you pick your football/soccer, American football and Basketball teams. Tennis brings people together because you could be from Mumbai or NYC and still be cheering for the same guy. The problem I have with the Olympics (and Davis Cup) is that it seeks to make the sport a nationalistic thing. Now think about it. Let's say I was British but my favorite player was Roger Federer. So in the Olympics final, if I don't cheer for Andy Murray I basically feel like a traitor or an outcast. The Olympics and Davis Cup create unnecessary divide amongst people. Stop turning Tennis into a nationalistic sport!!
5. Not everyone is that Patriotic
When a person wins Davis Cup or the Olympic Medal then THEY dont win it. The nation does. People in the center court last year were chanting TEAM GB. So if Scotland were to break from the rest of GB (I know it won't happen but for argument's sake) and Andy Murray still felt strongly about Scotland, the gold medal would not follow him. Britain would still keep it. So the point I'm making here is that its not an individual achievement but a national achievement. Nadal has not won Davis Cup. Spain won Davis Cup which Nadal happened to be a part of. That would be like saying Rooney has won the EPL or Ronaldo has won La Liga when it is United and Madrid that have won it. Not everyone is patriotic! its a fact! So why would you try so hard to get a medal which is not really your individual achievement if you are not patriotic to begin with?? WTF is an individual achievement for which you have to qualify for and then win beating the top players. WTF is a common ground for all players. You are playing for YOURSELF and YOU want to win.
6. Most GOAT Candidates (Except Nadal) or Ex GOAT candidates don't have it.
Laver, Rosewall, Pancho, Sampras, Borg, and Federer. But Laver, Rosewall, Sampras and Federer have all won the WTF, WCT or YEC. (not sure about Pancho). So if one has to be used as a measuring stick it has to be an INDIVIDUAL achievement, and something that most of the greats have done IMO.
So in my book, I would rate the WTF over the Gold Medal any day. I would rather win the WTF hands down. Personally!
These are MY REASONS and MY OPINIONS. Not facts obviously!
1. It is worth significantly more points.
Let's think about this for a second. Tournaments are given ranking points based on their importance and difficulty level. Thats why Slams are given 2000 points. Masters are given 1000 and below that you have 500 and 250 and so on and so forth. Now winning the Olympics will give you 750. Winning the WTF on the other hand gives you 1500. In the Olympics you probably will not meet a top 8 player till at least the QF's. Here, every match you play is against one.
2. You have to QUALIFY for it.
Players have to play year round and gain enough points and end the season within the top 8 to qualify for this event. Almost 10 months of struggle = a spot in this tournament. Not even the slams make you work as hard just to get a spot. Only 8 players out of so many others get a chance to play so the difficulty level just to qualify is HUGE.
3. It gets far more coverage, viewership, sponsorship and spectators than the TENNIS Olympics and fans LOVE IT. (Keep in mind not the Olympics as a whole)
Firstly the 02 Arena is the second biggest arena that tennis is played in only after Arthur Ashe Stadium. It can house 17,500 people. The O2 is mainly used for huge concerts and the fact that they are able to hire the place shows they are making big bucks. When I wanted to watch the Olympic tennis matches, I found myself not being able to find the matches on any channel. ESPN didn't have it, Tennis Channel did not have it, nor did most other sports networks. But for the World Tour Finals ESPN had it, Tennis Channel had it, Skysports had it and so did many others. It shows that it is a much BIGGER event with more fans flocking to see it. Boris Becker said it draws more crowds than he had ever seen in non-slam tournaments and just the overall buzz is amazing. He said its an "instant classic". The Olympics on the other hand.....not really that watched. Tennis Olympics that is. Remember its the FAN BASE that has the last word. They carry everything.
4. Tennis is not a nationalistic sport and the Olympics is turning it into one
The beautiful thing about tennis is that you pick your players based on their style, game and personality. Which is quite different from how you pick your football/soccer, American football and Basketball teams. Tennis brings people together because you could be from Mumbai or NYC and still be cheering for the same guy. The problem I have with the Olympics (and Davis Cup) is that it seeks to make the sport a nationalistic thing. Now think about it. Let's say I was British but my favorite player was Roger Federer. So in the Olympics final, if I don't cheer for Andy Murray I basically feel like a traitor or an outcast. The Olympics and Davis Cup create unnecessary divide amongst people. Stop turning Tennis into a nationalistic sport!!
5. Not everyone is that Patriotic
When a person wins Davis Cup or the Olympic Medal then THEY dont win it. The nation does. People in the center court last year were chanting TEAM GB. So if Scotland were to break from the rest of GB (I know it won't happen but for argument's sake) and Andy Murray still felt strongly about Scotland, the gold medal would not follow him. Britain would still keep it. So the point I'm making here is that its not an individual achievement but a national achievement. Nadal has not won Davis Cup. Spain won Davis Cup which Nadal happened to be a part of. That would be like saying Rooney has won the EPL or Ronaldo has won La Liga when it is United and Madrid that have won it. Not everyone is patriotic! its a fact! So why would you try so hard to get a medal which is not really your individual achievement if you are not patriotic to begin with?? WTF is an individual achievement for which you have to qualify for and then win beating the top players. WTF is a common ground for all players. You are playing for YOURSELF and YOU want to win.
6. Most GOAT Candidates (Except Nadal) or Ex GOAT candidates don't have it.
Laver, Rosewall, Pancho, Sampras, Borg, and Federer. But Laver, Rosewall, Sampras and Federer have all won the WTF, WCT or YEC. (not sure about Pancho). So if one has to be used as a measuring stick it has to be an INDIVIDUAL achievement, and something that most of the greats have done IMO.
So in my book, I would rate the WTF over the Gold Medal any day. I would rather win the WTF hands down. Personally!
Last edited:
Overdrive
Legend
RF20Lennon
Legend
TennezSport
Hall of Fame
Its simple really.
The WTF is the BEST of the BEST of the BEST for the given year. Only the BEST are qualified. See simple!
Cheers, TennezSport
The WTF is the BEST of the BEST of the BEST for the given year. Only the BEST are qualified. See simple!
Cheers, TennezSport
I'd say at a BARE minimum it's a step above a Masters 1000.
Given that to win a masters 1000 event you maybe have to beat 2 or 3 (sometimes as few as 1) top 10 opponents, but to win this you probably have to win 2 RR's, a semi and a final... so 4 top 10 opponents... that's harder!
I wish when they listed the Masters 1000 Shield totals that they listed them as Masters 1000 + WTF's so that Federer was still over Nadal (although I suspect Nadal will hurdle even that number as soon as 2014).
I'd like to think Federer could win another Masters 1000, but really at this point I'm not sure... Kind of depends on if Nadal can get hurt again and maybe it's about time for Djoker to get hurt as well... preferably they could get hurt whilst playing each other... simultaneous ACL tears or something.
Given that to win a masters 1000 event you maybe have to beat 2 or 3 (sometimes as few as 1) top 10 opponents, but to win this you probably have to win 2 RR's, a semi and a final... so 4 top 10 opponents... that's harder!
I wish when they listed the Masters 1000 Shield totals that they listed them as Masters 1000 + WTF's so that Federer was still over Nadal (although I suspect Nadal will hurdle even that number as soon as 2014).
I'd like to think Federer could win another Masters 1000, but really at this point I'm not sure... Kind of depends on if Nadal can get hurt again and maybe it's about time for Djoker to get hurt as well... preferably they could get hurt whilst playing each other... simultaneous ACL tears or something.
The Dark Knight
Legend
And you will remember again at the end of the year.
6
6-3 6-0
Guest
This. 10chars
The Dark Knight
Legend
The Dark Knight
Legend
The WTF is the BEST of the BEST of the BEST for the given year. Only the BEST are qualified. See simple!
Cheers, TennezSport
Ummmmm.....no.
The best 8 players as determined by events played outside, in their worst form of the year, playing inside = unrepresentative of much
Firing Forehand
Rookie
Olympics > wtf
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
The Olympics is only once every 4 years so I don't think it should even be brought into the discussion. Let's just focus on the tournaments that take place every year which the WTF does.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
I'd rank Olympics below WTF, possibly the Masters as well. Don't forget it's only once every 4 years.
Flint
Hall of Fame
Which makes it an awful lot harder to win!
