Where to look after hitted the ball?
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Neither statement is true.
Where exactly, in the video, does Ian say to look at the opponent after hitting the ball? Immediately after hitting the ball? I believe he says not to look at the opponent while you are in the process of hitting the ball.
We should look at the opponent after hitting our shot. But not immediately after contact. To ensure that we hit the ball cleanly, we should keep the head when we are about to make contact and for a short time afterward.
During the contact phase -- before and after impact -- we should be focused on our contact point (or a spot, in space, a bit forward of the contact point). We are not looking at the ball or at the opponent during the contact phase (before & after impact).
When the incoming & outgoing ball is very close to us, it moves across our field of vision very rapidly. Our (smooth pursuit) tracking system cannot keep up with this rapid change position with the ball in close proximity. So, it is better to focus our gaze on the contact point (or a spot in front of the contact point) rather than to fruitlessly trying to watch (track) the ball when it is very close to us
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
After contact, most players track the flight of their ball to see where it is going to land. The key is that good players are recovering (feet, position, racquet-ready stance) while they are doing that while others stand and gawk at their ball doing nothing till their ball lands by which time it is too late to be ready.
Ian speaks from 4:00 you schould watch the opponent when your ball is travelling towards your opponent.
Brent Abel writes: in these phase is cruical to look at the ball not at your opponent (if you wish i send this instruction too)
This contraversy is the point of this thread.
Dragy
Legend
In seriousness, I would expect the following to happen (not that I always do it fault-proof):
- Keep head still, watching the contact point or slightly in front, while completing the swing;
- While immediately after completing the swing I perform intended recovery/follow-up movement, I’ll glance around to capture the ball, if it’s doing what I expect it to do, and my opponent, to see what he’s doing, if he’s stretched, or if he hastens up the action to interrupt the ball early (sneak to the net), so that I know if I just recover an split-step and wait for next shot, or I do something else
- Focus on my opponent approaching the ball, and winding up, to read his next shot. Split step to be in the air the moment he makes contact
- Watch the ball after it leaves his strings to read and move and decide on the shot.
I believe it’s important to understand the whole sequence and what happens overall, rather than just decide on where to look and when. But as a corrective drill a coach might tell you personally to focus on particular things.
- Keep head still, watching the contact point or slightly in front, while completing the swing;
- While immediately after completing the swing I perform intended recovery/follow-up movement, I’ll glance around to capture the ball, if it’s doing what I expect it to do, and my opponent, to see what he’s doing, if he’s stretched, or if he hastens up the action to interrupt the ball early (sneak to the net), so that I know if I just recover an split-step and wait for next shot, or I do something else
- Focus on my opponent approaching the ball, and winding up, to read his next shot. Split step to be in the air the moment he makes contact
- Watch the ball after it leaves his strings to read and move and decide on the shot.
I believe it’s important to understand the whole sequence and what happens overall, rather than just decide on where to look and when. But as a corrective drill a coach might tell you personally to focus on particular things.
At my level at my enviroment the coaches i could have help less than my own experiences on the court, on the internet and TT advices.
Maybe at the USA there are better cirkumstances, i can imagine.
Bagumbawalla
Talk Tennis Guru
I am sitting in my kitchen, looking into the back yard. I can see the whole yard,
fence, trees, rocks, grass- I take it all in as a whole.
But I can also narrow my focus and see one individual leaf forty feet away.
I think this is sort of what happens in tennis. We are able to focus our attention
on different things of different size and complexity from the whole aspect down to the minute.
As you prepare to strike the ball, the ball is your only focus. It seems larger and slower
in the gravity of your gaze. You watch the ball as your racket strikes.
As the ball sails over the net, your field of vision changes to a broader perspective.
You take it all in, the ball's flight, the opponent's movement, the probabilities of
where he will hit his return- as you, yourself, position yourself in a favorable (you hope) location.
As the opponent positions himself to strike the ball your field of vision becomes more focused again- you
notice the opponent's stance, the motion of his racket, the spin and speed imparted to the ball
as it arches over the net, and the ball becomes, again, the most interesting object in the world.
fence, trees, rocks, grass- I take it all in as a whole.
But I can also narrow my focus and see one individual leaf forty feet away.
I think this is sort of what happens in tennis. We are able to focus our attention
on different things of different size and complexity from the whole aspect down to the minute.
As you prepare to strike the ball, the ball is your only focus. It seems larger and slower
in the gravity of your gaze. You watch the ball as your racket strikes.
As the ball sails over the net, your field of vision changes to a broader perspective.
You take it all in, the ball's flight, the opponent's movement, the probabilities of
where he will hit his return- as you, yourself, position yourself in a favorable (you hope) location.
As the opponent positions himself to strike the ball your field of vision becomes more focused again- you
notice the opponent's stance, the motion of his racket, the spin and speed imparted to the ball
as it arches over the net, and the ball becomes, again, the most interesting object in the world.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Which phase?
When the ball travels to my opponent after i hitted it
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
I don't think anyone disagree in that.
What you don't want to do in this phase is staring at the ball to see whether it is going IN or OUT (which is most lower level rec players do). Instead you want to pick up clues from ANYTHING else.... mostly this means opponent or his grip changes or his slow starting or his emergency running or whatever. This is your anticipation phase.
Who’s that guy stealing your car?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I believe you've misinterpreted what Brent Abel has said. I've seen one of his videos on "watching the ball". I don't believe he said not to watch the opponent when the ball is traveling toward them. He said something like, as the opponent's racket is about to make connect with the ball, focus on the ball during their contact rather than the last part of the opponent's swing.
(BTW, "hitted" is not a legit English word)
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Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Essentially think of it as 3 phases
1. Anticipation - Don't focus on the ball during this phase. Pickup clues from opponent or racquet or grip or whetever. Generally focus on the opponent or what they are doing.
2. Reaction - Track the ball during this phase. Trajectory changes gives you additional info on top of what you gathered during anticipation phase. (Don't focus on the opponent during this phase, even if they weave their hands in air like Swiatek).
3. Execution - Keep the head as stable as possible during this phase, and focus on execution (not aftermath)
I don't think anyone disagrees with this overall concept.
The only slight differences in opinions I see are whether it is important to focus and see the ball during contact or not (Federer stance vs Djokovic stance).
Also some minor differences in opinions on what is the best optimal start of each of the above phases. For example whether the reaction phase should start just before opponent contacts or just after opponent contacts.
1. Anticipation - Don't focus on the ball during this phase. Pickup clues from opponent or racquet or grip or whetever. Generally focus on the opponent or what they are doing.
2. Reaction - Track the ball during this phase. Trajectory changes gives you additional info on top of what you gathered during anticipation phase. (Don't focus on the opponent during this phase, even if they weave their hands in air like Swiatek).
3. Execution - Keep the head as stable as possible during this phase, and focus on execution (not aftermath)
I don't think anyone disagrees with this overall concept.
The only slight differences in opinions I see are whether it is important to focus and see the ball during contact or not (Federer stance vs Djokovic stance).
Also some minor differences in opinions on what is the best optimal start of each of the above phases. For example whether the reaction phase should start just before opponent contacts or just after opponent contacts.
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Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
You find it at the 10. page down below
How to Develop True Confidence In Your Tennis ... - Brent Abel Tennis
How to Develop True Confidence In Your Tennis ... - Brent Abel Tennis
www.yumpu.com
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Your assessment of both videos is correct. Be aware that Ian says before that, "once you've hit the ball and it is travelling towards your opponent".
It does appear they both recommend slightly different things at that stage, with one saying watch the ball and the other saying watch the opponent. However, I think Ian's reference is slighty later, and Brent is talking about finding and tracking the ball immediately after you look up from stroke completion. You should do that and I think Ian just assumes that happens. Just after you've located the ball and are tracking it - which is probably as it passes over the net, give or take - at that point you should then start to look at the opponent to see where they are in relation to your shot; are they in trouble, perhaps stretched and about to slice, or did you hit a weak shot and they are lining up a big forehand in the middle of the court. Those things need identified so you can make a decision on your next course of action.
In summary, they are both correct, but Brent doesn't seem to consider looking at the opponent or where they are until they are about to make contact, and that does seem odd to me.
imo both are correct...
ideally i don't look up until the ball has crossed the net...
i'm only tracking the ball enough to see if it's a better/worse shot than i attempted to do (in general i have an idea of where i want to hit the ball)... if it's short, for example, i might take a step back, but if it's accidently close to the lines, i might come forward...
then i try to see my opponent moving to the ball, in the periphery... are they ontime, off balance, any tells on preparation...
then i'm trying to time my split (land) on their contact, so i'm watching their prep/swing/contact...
imo more important to watch the balll on other side, as the timing of the split and reactiving asap after contact is critical (ie. think running fh pass by opponent).. they are likely out of the picture, and will be a last second desperation shot but you need to presume they will make it, and be ready for it... so timing my split is highest prio
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I assume you are being ironic here.
Nick's knows the secret to success
Nick has been the one of the most talented players to never really reach his potential. Best player never to reach the top 10 and never win a slam title (except for 1 time in doubs). Only 7 singles titles total from a guy who probably should have won 3x that number.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
That no look shot got put away like stinky cheese
Nick's knows the secret to success
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Not necessarily. A bit extreme.
20 years ago, I was encouraging players to keep the eyes on the CP until the outgoing ball crossed the net. But ~15 years ago, I decided that Agassi’s gaze strategy was a great alternative for many players. During the contact phase, Andre would focus on a point in space a bit forward of his CP. He never actually fixated on the CP.
Andre would keep his head still for a while after contact — but not quite as long as Roger. Most other elite player did not hold their head still quite a long as Roger did either.
I modified my earlier assertion and decided that it was ok to start watching the ball again shortly before the ball crossed the net. If this is the case, then you would actually be able to see the ball hit the net much of the time.
To teach & encourage players to keep their head down (& still) until after contact, I would have them practice hitting the ball into a fence. But I would usually have them positioned about 6-8 meters from the fence and tell them not to look up til they heard the ball hit the fence— they should not see the ball hit the fence.
When hitting a shot nr the BL, you are usually somewhat further than this — typically, 10-14 meters from the net. In this case, if you are looking up to watch the ball AFTER it has traveled 6-8 meters away, you would likely see a ball hit the net.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Somewhat different from what he says in his video that I watched. In the video, he implied that you would watch the opponent a bit before contact.You find it at the 10. page down below
How to Develop True Confidence In Your Tennis ... - Brent Abel Tennis
How to Develop True Confidence In Your Tennis ... - Brent Abel Tennis
In order to time your split step properly, you would need to be able to see your opponent start his forward swing. Brent was a bit vague about it in his video, but he appeared to suggest that you keenly focus on the ball, rather than the opponent— once you start your SS.
Even when you are fixated on your own CP (or near the CP), you will often be able to pick up movement by your opponent solely with your peripheral vision.
After your shot has crossed the net, you should be able to see both the ball and your opponent at the same time— most of the time. As the ball gets nearer to your opponent, you should be able to clearly see both with your central (foveal) vision.
Even tho you can see both at that point, my take is that you are focused a bit more on the opponent — until you execute your SS. From that point, your primary focus becomes the ball
i still try to keep head on contact until it crosses the net, and encourage students to do the same
alternative cues i use, are to keep head down until:
* shoulder touches my chin
* left hand catches racquet
* see the yellow flash and/or racquet flash
especially for teaching i find that i/students need to exaggerate "head on contact" alot more until it's a habit (which often never becomes a habit for rec folks - i still need to remind myself...)
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
While he usually gets his point across, even with creative or flawed English, I thought it would be best to bring up egregious flaws like this so that @toth and others can further improve their communication skills in English. I assume most non-native speakers would welcome this sort of feedback — as long as we are not just mocking them.
The only proper forms of “hit" that come to mind are: hit, hits, hitting
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@Dragy
That was pretty much my thinking for much of the 00 decade -- until I decided it was too extreme & unrealistic for many students. Most elite players don't hold that long.
For some students, the exaggeration could even be counterproductive -- they might consider the exaggeration ridiculous and would be inclined to disregard the suggestion altogether. The fence drill I employed gave students a more realistic goal.
The largest objection to the exaggeration is that it is sub-optimal when playing doubles or anytime you have a threat of an opponent at the net. Not looking up until after the ball has crossed the net might cause you some grief in these situations. You might still be able to pick up an opponent's movement with your head / eyes down but, if there is a threat at the net, I want a bit more visual information than that.
I've employed the "chin" suggestion quite often. But I feel the "catch the racquet" cue is way too late after contact. I've also used the "racquet flash" cue quite a lot -- many players never notice the "yellow flash". Another usual cue is to hold the fixation until you hear the contact. This, along with the visual flash should ensure that the head is kept still for, at least, 120-200 ms after contact -- more than ample time. It is likely that you will pick up the ball a little bit before it crosses the net using these cues
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Yes that's fair, but you didn't offer the correction in your reply, which I expected to see. I give toth a decent amount of criticism when they post silly stuff, so I wanted to try and be balanced.
i'm the opposite, i think beginners need to exaggerate, to feel that pause on contact, before looking up... mainly because breaking the habit of looking up can be extremely difficult
yep agreed, i need to look up sooner, if i/opp are closing/at the net...
i like the "hear the contact" queue too
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Are you Medeea?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Yez. He's a legend
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
This a receipe to get unballanced, hence inconsistent, mind you.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
This is how you don't see the drop shot till it is hit. Good players would start the running just before contact is made for the drop shot.
But to the point of OP there seems to be some disagreement on the focus point between Brent and Ian. Still both seem to agree on getting the clues from the opponent, just that Brent want this to be from non-focused peripheral vision. I personally believe there is no information you are gathering from the ball moving to opponent side, at least just before contact (around your split step). Infact Brent is a bit extreme on the topic of contact staring.... similar to @nyta2
I blame Mr.Federer for this.
To me the only thing really matters when you contact the ball is keeping the head still. Your head position determines where you are staring.... you are not going to mishit the ball just because you don't see the ball just before contact.
The Federer way is that he tilts his head and tracks the ball from a lot more directly behind. This enables him to stare at the ball longer while keeping his head still. But most other pros track the ball from a different head position, a bit more sideways, so to keep the head still from a bit before contact, they cannot theoretically see the contact with full focus. Arguably it is easier to figure the speed of the ball from a bit sideways position, than right behind. But possibly slightly more easier trajectory tracking with minimal head movement when doing more direct behind tracking.
So in summary, I don't see a big advantage for one or the other. So I really don't insist on either, as long as the head is still during contact.
But artificially staring at the contact point long after ball is hit is just non-productive.
What do you do in doubles as the partner of the guy who hits the ball? You don't track the ball as it travels to opponent, correct? You focus on the opponent net player and then the baseline player, and then the opponents ball contact....
The quality of the shot of your baseline partner is determined by which of the opponent player contacts the ball. If the net opponent contact the ball vs the baseline opponent contacts the ball makes a big difference.
Of course in singles most of the time, there may not be such a huge difference in position of the opponent (except if he slips or something). But still the above point is valid.
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Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Well... doesn't that really depend on the opponent? Even if you hit a really short ball, if the opponent slipped on his first step.... you don't step back, correct? You step in... because your apparently "weak" ball just became a "good shot".
The point is, you get more clues from your opponent, than the ball during this phase, and also helps with changing your ideal recovery. Of course you also need some info from ball trajectory.
The old concept of recovery was that you recover to the middle of the cone (purely determined by where your ball is bouncing).
The new concept of recovery is recover to the middle of the modified cone (determined by where your opponent is going to contact the ball from).
Plus in some situations there is also an anticipated recovery position. For example if you get enough clue that the opponent is going for a down the line drive..... or cross court angled overhead, you may modify your recovery to cheat.
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Curious
G.O.A.T.
Isn’t where your opponent is going to contact the ball determined by where your ball is bouncing?
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
In baseline to baseline shots, after contact I look at the ball just long enough to determine where it will bounce. I know from the contact feel how well I've hit it. From those two, I make some sort of instantaneous guess as to how effective my shot has been. At that time, I shift my focus to my opponent, to see how well they are getting in position to hit the ball, and how they will attempt to hit the ball. I use that to guide my recovery positioning, including split step timing.
On a shot to my opponent at the net, I don't think I try to look at the ball at all and just focus on what my opponent is doing.
I never try to follow a ball the last few feet before I hit it, unless it's going to bounce right at my feet. On a ball that bounces ten feet in front of me, I'm probably looking at a point about six feet in front of me. Any closer and even if I did see something that I need to compensate for, it's too late to react to it anyway. That's why on volleys that tick the net cord, it's darned near impossible to react, and usually in singles we're at least ten feet from the net.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Not exactly. The doubles example I gave above is probably an extreme scenario. But in general, as players are getting more athletic, the conact point can vary large enough to make a difference. The same ball taken on the rise vs on the fall vs as volley makes a big difference in what you should expect back, and what the overall cone is.
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Curious
G.O.A.T.
Do the angles ( of his best possible shots) really change a lot though?
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Think of a Down the line shot you hit straight throught the singles sideline.
Irrespective of where the opponent's contact depth is, his one extreme is straight through down the line back.
But what about his other extreme? The cross court angle shot. The best available angle changes as the conact depth changes.
So doesn't that change the middle of the cone?
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I see your point but unless the opponent takes it right after the first bounce or just before the second I’m not sure if the angles change that much.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
At average rec level it is not going to make much of a difference. So I guess I am OK to leave it at this.
For sure there's plenty of more important stuff to worry about at the rec level, but drop shot situations (even accidental) happen often enough Imo (so looking at the opponent to determine the right depth coverage more so than angle coverage). And especially at the rec level there can be a lot of variability in reaction time, even with the same opponent.
have you ever tried to teach someone this, that has the habit of always looking up before contact, in order to track the ball?
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