what level are you talking about?
Where to look after hitted the ball?
- Thread starter toth
- Start date
LOBALOT
Legend
If I did that I would be looking in the field well behind the back fence.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Interesting. How do you think watching the ball and the opponent for recovery gets a player unbalanced? What do you believe the recipe for success is?
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Read more please (including my post above, that answers your question. But start with the coaches first). This is a lesson learned from Golf, that if you move your head during the shot, your whole body gets unballanced.
I was talking about my shot, not the opponent's shot
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
I think you are mixing things up here. The questions is about AFTER you hit the ball. All players look to where the ball is going and where opponents are. The 'head steady' is during contact.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Infact I am least strongly opionated in this topic. I only ask them to "finish the shot" before worrying about anything else (and don't specifically mention about head or stare or anything). Of course part of the pre-requsite is that it is already ingrained what is a "shot" using simple feeds, including moving into shot, coming out of shot, and the balance during shot. As long as this progression is made, I don't see them having issues. I really don't enforce any stare or watch during contact.
Infact I also experimented one time with some, asking them to "closing their eyes" during contact. Theoretically it should not have any impact on quality of contact and supposedly remove any urge to lookup. But this failed miscerably. So never tried that again.
My explanation is that "closing eyes" is another unnecessary activity, and the moment the any mental focus is taken away from the main job at hand which is the shot, it is causing more harm than good. So in other way, if the closing eyes were "natural" it should not have any impact, but the moment it becomes a "forced" one, it does harm. This is the same reason I don't like "forced stare".
Or in general, my philisophy is that, even though "balance" is a requirement, I want them to do it without forcefully focusing on head or stare.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
We agree, keep eyes at contact, thru contact.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, but that is not what the thread was asking from what I read.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Yea original OP question was about alternate opinions on where to look "after" contact is made. Also apparently "how long" after contact is made.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
From:
Systematic differences in gaze behavior were observed across
the two skill groups. The less skilled players preferred to focus on
more obvious, deterministic cues from the racket and ball regions.
In contrast, the skilled players utilized a more synthetic search
strategy, using prior knowledge and experience to direct their gaze
toward additional, perhaps more subtle task-relevant information
cues located around the central body areas (i.e., head–shoulder,
trunk– hip).
Loading…
www.researchgate.net
Systematic differences in gaze behavior were observed across
the two skill groups. The less skilled players preferred to focus on
more obvious, deterministic cues from the racket and ball regions.
In contrast, the skilled players utilized a more synthetic search
strategy, using prior knowledge and experience to direct their gaze
toward additional, perhaps more subtle task-relevant information
cues located around the central body areas (i.e., head–shoulder,
trunk– hip).
Last edited:
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
I was also talking about your shot and not opponents shot. Or more clearly right "after" completion of your shot.
I have difficoulties keep my head still properly after contact.
I can do it, but it is only good for me if i hit a winner, if my opponent can hit the ball back, i am often late.
I think i keep my head still too long.
Which is the best method to time when i schould look up?
No “best”. Seeing flash of ball/racquet works for me…
I like "look with your eyes, not with your head", so it doesn't matter so much when I look
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Keep your head / eyes still until (just) after you hear / feel your own impact with the ball. This should be long enuff to ensure that you are not moving head / eyes before & during contact.
Than what time would you look up?
Or you always would look at the contact point? (About 10 years ago i have read an article that has adviced always look at the contact point, and trust your periferian vision more ?!)
,,than what time would you look up" - i mean at what time you move up your head
(excuse me for my weak English")
ideally you're looking up immediately after contact... (sound of, feel of, etc... whatever your personal cue is....)
but that's a hard habit to break for many, where they are in the habit of looking up well before contact..
so with all these tips... which did you try, and which worked for you...
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
You don’t necessarily need to look at the contact point (CP) at all. Andre would fix his gaze a bit forward of his expected CP instead (see images below). The advantage of this gaze technique is that it requires less head movement to set up (since he never turns his head as much as Roger). Some ppl find this easier on the neck.
Andre stops moving his head & eyes about midway thru his forward swing. He keeps his head still during contact and for a short time after contact. While he moves his head, after contact, somewhat sooner than Roger, he still keeps it still for a bit after he makes contact.
Because it requires more head movement to fixate on the CP, especially the way Roger does it, many ppl find it easier to implement Andres’s gaze technique
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Dragy
Legend
Yes, the one using snowshoe of a frame! And hitting off-center like on the picture!
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Is his gaze technique the continuous tracking of the ball from the time it being hit to the time of contact point?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
No, it could not possibly be. From my description it should be apparent that he was NOT tracking the ball all the way to his own contact.
He was likely tracking the ball for much / most of the time it traveled from his opponent’s racket until it reached him. He would STOP tracking the incoming ball when it was in close proximity — a bit forward of his CP (as seen in the 3 images above). Andre said that the ball seemed “large” (larger than normal) at the point where he fixed his gaze.
Note that when the ball is in very close proximity to us, it essentially becomes ”invisible”. When the incoming ball is very close to us, our smooth pursuit tracking system is not longer able to keep up with the ball — it traverses our field of vision much too quickly for our smooth pursuit system to track.
Hence, it becomes “invisible” for the most part when it is moving in close proximity. Some players are able to detect a brief (momentary) yellow blur in this “invisible” zone. A couple of possibilities come to mind for this perception. One, our peripheral vision might be picking up some (ball) movement. The other possibility if that we pick up a little bit more visual information with our saccadic tracking system (using a jump-ahead saccade). The 2nd option makes a bit more sense to me. We do not see a solid ball when it is in very close proximity, but we might see a momentary blur.
When Andre fixes his gaze a bit forward of his CP, he might be picking up a last view of a solid ball — just before it reaches “the invisible zone”.
Last edited:
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Andre did not use a full OS frame — typically 112 sq inches or larger. But it was a bit larger than a typical MP frame. I believe his was around 105 to 107 sq inches.Yes, the one using snowshoe of a frame! And hitting off-center like on the picture!
The contact in that image looks to me to be only moderately off-center
user92626
G.O.A.T.
So, track the ball from his opponent’s racket until it gets in close proximity and then fix his gaze on the contact point zone?
What I don't understand is the ball's flight time is so brief, where or when would you stop tracking it?
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
There is a theory that Federer looks at the ball from behind the racquet and so since he is looking more from directly behind balls flight path, he can see the ball clearly even at the contact.
Federer Vision Technique
www.revolutionarytennis.com
It kind of make sense since Federer hits the ball a lot more infront most of the time (but I am not sure whether this was specific shots only).
Theoretically, yes if you are looking at an object directly behind its incoming path, it is not getting blurred by its speed. But I would think this would your 3D sense, and so your judgement of flight/depth is probably better when not looking directly behind.
I was not really keen on researching on this topic, since from practical results I know that keeping the head still is all matters, and it does not really matter whether you see a blur or clear during contact. But putting it here since it is an interesting theory.
Honestly I haven't really been thinking about it too much - I just try to keep my head movement smooth while my shoulders rotate from underneath. Maybe I should try something more strict, but last time I did, I wasn't really able to make it stick.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Question:
I look at the ball, mainly the ball, as soon as it leaves my opponent's racket, Im still late, can't chase down shots that go near side lines.
Is that normal? Or am I too slow? Or am I NOT doing enough the fundamentals, like I would need to look ,read opponent's swing too?
I look at the ball, mainly the ball, as soon as it leaves my opponent's racket, Im still late, can't chase down shots that go near side lines.
Is that normal? Or am I too slow? Or am I NOT doing enough the fundamentals, like I would need to look ,read opponent's swing too?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
true but my life is too short for all these craps. I need to prioritize.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@toth @Morch Us
Not exactly. Andre never fixes his gaze on his CP (zone). He stops tracking the ball shortly before it gets there.
Roger, doesn’t watch watch the ball all the way into contact either. I recall seeing some very high speed film of Roger hitting a Fh. He appears to track the incoming ball early in his forward swing. However, when the ball is in closer proximity, Roger turns his head a bit more and his eyes jump ahead to his CP. His eyes get to the CP shortly before the ball does. Therefore, he’s not really following the ball all the way into his strings.
He often looks like he is looking at the ball thru his strings. However, both the ball and the racket are moving thru the contact zone and across his field of vision so rapidly, it is doubtful that he sees a solid ball or a solid racket shortly before or after contact. Does he really actually see the ball thru his strings? Seems doubtful. Both the ball and the racket would, at best, be an amorphous blur.
Even on a fast (120 mph) serve, the transit time from the server’s racket to your racket would be something close to 1000 ms. For a 60 mph groundstroke, the transit time might be 1500 to 1700 ms or so. Somewhat short but ample time to track the ball compared to other sports. A baseball fastball might reach a batter in 400 ms or so. The transit time for badminton and ping pong (table tennis) is typically also considerably shorter than it is for tennis.
Not sure I understand your last question here since, I believe, that I previously answered where / when the ball is no longer being tracked with the smooth pursuit tracking system.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@toth
I first saw Mark Papas’ Federer Vision Technique some 16-17 years ago. I adopted his “looking thru the strings” at that time. On many, if not most, shots I could detect a yellow blur. I absolutely NEVER saw a solid ball on the stringbed using the Fed vision technique. Seriously doubt that Roger did either.
When I have seen the momentary yellow blur, it has been an amorphous yellow streak — a bit forward of the actual CP. I’ve never seen that yellow streak actually “touching” the CP — there’s always been a gap. That amorphous yellow streak might very well be a combination of the incoming ball and the outgoing ball — it happens so fast, so briefly, it’s hard to say that it is one or the other — or both
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Thanks for your texts on this subject but tbh I still don't understand much because words rarely effectively describe actions.
Do you know any instructional videos that teach ball tracking techniques? That you would recommend?
Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
After you have hit the ball, and your stroke has already finished you are supposed to watch the opponent. Why?
Because what the opponent does gives you clues about what he is going to do next, and it's easier to time the split step.
Your execution is already in the past, so admiring your shot by tracking where the ball is going to go is useless.
You will be able to track the ball back again right before your opponent is about to hit the ball.
Because what the opponent does gives you clues about what he is going to do next, and it's easier to time the split step.
Your execution is already in the past, so admiring your shot by tracking where the ball is going to go is useless.
You will be able to track the ball back again right before your opponent is about to hit the ball.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
If you're not tracking your shot, how are you able to know your shot is in or out, and challenge the call if necessary?
Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
You gotta trust your opponent unfortunately. Sucks, but it is what it is. Unless you feel the shot was way in.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I'm talking about ATP, WTA levels. How would they know?
Pros suppose to have the textbook on techniques, right?
Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
Peripheral vision.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
It is often quite a challenge to describe to describe athletic actions (strokes, footwork, gaze / tracking, etc) primarily with text. Not sure how to make it any clearer since I don't know where the disconnect or confusion is happening for you and for @toth.
Not sure that there are many instructional videos that adequately cover the information you seek. Perhaps the video below will provide some additional insight for you.
You might also try some sessions with an optometrist who specializes in Sports Vision Training. I did this some 30+ years ago and found that it was quite helpful. Since then I've done quite a bit of my own research on vision and visual skills. Have also looked at a number of research studies that delve into visual behavior & skills for tennis and other sports. The Quiet Eye concept in sports, developed by professor Joan Vickers (since the late 1980s), has provided a lot of valuable insight as well.
The gaze / vision tracking skills video (below) from RacquetFlex might help you understand some of the concepts Ive tried to get across. The RF coach does get into more technical details than I did. Hopefully some of his explanations, graphics & demonstrations will make sense to you:..
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
After the ball crosses the net and approaches your opponent's position, both the ball and your opponent should be in your field of vision. Even before the ball reaches your opponent, you should be able to pick up your opponent's movement with your peripheral vision when your sharp central vision (foveal vision) is fixed on the ball. In most cases, you should be able to see where the ball bounces (wrt the lines) before you fix your gaze (foveal vision) on your opponent.
Once the ball is close to your opponent, and they have started their forward swing, you should be able to see both -- but, at that point, you should have your central vision & focus on your opponent.
When you are at the top of your split step hop (at contact), you should focus primarily on the ball again to determine its direction & trajectory.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Quiet Eye theory applied to tennis:
Similar threads
