Where would number one woman rank on ATP?

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
But physicality and speed both enable technique and timing to a large extent.
This is true but in tennis you have a whole lot of technical basis things to learn before you can even dream about being competitive with anyone on a decent level (and with this I mean local club level). Even with great speed and power/strength etc it will take some time to learn to simply keep the ball in play even without any pressure from your opponent, not even talking about slice, volley or a anywhere close to decent serve.

Even the best athlete will hit tons of unforced errors for quite some time. In other sports like 100m or shot put, weightlifting etc, I can see great athletes from other sports being way more competitive even if they haven’t any clue about sports specific technique. For instance there are several footballer who can run 100m in 10.8 seconds or even below which is close to women world record despite never having been trained in sprinting. In tennis there is no athlete from any other sport who - without ever having played - would be anywhere competitive with even a 4.0 let alone a female pro player.
 

Terenigma

G.O.A.T.
Anyone who thinks a male player inside the top 1000 would lose is deluding themselves. Especially these days with current stamina levels and fitness. I've never directly watched a match between a male player and a top female player but what i have seen is Serena and Bouchard and Radwanska try and return a typical male/Isner serve and if memory servers, Only Radwanska and Serena even managed to even get their racquet on it, let alone get it back in play. Both of them are top 10 players who are quick and good returners.

Also if you're gonna say "well that's Isner, he has a huge serve that male players struggle with too" yeah they do. struggle with it, not fail to return it completely and it was a joke match, he wasn't taking it super serious. Also let me remind you, one of the players failing to return it was Serena Williams. Arguably the greatest WTA player ever.
 
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Sport

G.O.A.T.
Tennis as a game needing technique and strategy counters physical performance to a significant degree (why Jim Brown would get his ass kicked by a top WTA play ), so the question about ATP is a fair one as they would probably be able to beat a few of the men in challenger circuit or college level
Tennis is a predominantly physical sport, not only a strategy one. Like tennis, basketball is a physical game needing technique and strategy, yet men destroy women as well. Women stand no chance against elite men at any physical sport, and tennis is a physical sport. Only in mind sports like chess can women ocassionally beat the world champions.

 

jussumman

Hall of Fame
Tennis is a predominantly physical sport, not only a strategy one. Like tennis, basketball is a physical game needing technique and strategy, yet men destroy women as well. Women stand no chance against elite men at any physical sport, and tennis is a physical sport. Only in mind sports like chess can women ocassionally beat the world champions.

I agree with the general statement, but you miss the point of the question with your over-shoot, which John McEnroe was able to answer.
 

bjsnider

Hall of Fame
This thread is certainly not destined for deletion. Modern thinking teaches us that biology is a conspiracy of lies, and therefore the top woman would obviously also be in the ATP top 10, if not #1. But there's a great way to test this. Just incorporate both tours into one.
 

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
You'd lose that money.
We’re all entitled to our opinions. I still believe that matching some of the best players that the WTA has to offer against a lower ranked male player they would win. A lot of people here are comparing the pure physical strength and yes that’s an advantage. Also why do people keep using examples of other sports? Tennis and (insert sport here are not the same) However tennis isn’t about how physically strong you are. The players I mentioned ALL have big serves and play very smart tennis. The women in current the WTA are not the same as when BJK played her match. This age old arguement in today’s times is simply dated.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Outside top 1,000 and maybe even outside the top 5,000 or 10,000 on a reasonable level.
A very good 15 year old High School boy could beat Serena, so 5,000 is about right.

From Wiki, for those who don't remember this:

1998: Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters

The "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both.

Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager". The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park, after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies.

He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2. Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance". He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun" and that the big difference was that men can chase down shots much easier and put spin on the ball that female players can't handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350.
 
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NicoMK

Professional
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BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
Tennis is a physical sport, not only a strategy one. Like tennis, basketball is a physical game needing technique and strategy, yet men destroy women as well. Women stand no chance against elite men at any physical sport, and tennis is a physical sport. Only in mind sports like chess can women beat the world champions.

Not only in physical sports even in chess they are better by a good margin (way less than in physical sports though).

However, basketball cannot be compared to tennis regarding the importance of technique. In basketball guys like Shaq or Wilt would have made it to the pros even if they had the technique of a hobby player, from their ability to grab rebounds alone. Jordan himself didn’t make it to his HS team in 10th grade. You will never see a tennis player who only becomes serious about the sport at the age of 16 and becomes a GOAT candidate.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
This thread is certainly not destined for deletion. Modern thinking teaches us that biology is a conspiracy of lies, and therefore the top woman would obviously also be in the ATP top 10, if not #1. But there's a great way to test this. Just incorporate both tours into one.
Something like this can only be believed by people who firstly never ever played any sports themselves and second have been living under a rock their whole life. You only need to go as far as checking world records in sports where the level is actually measurable (track and fields, weightlifting etc).
 
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blablavla

Legend
Anyone who thinks a male player inside the top 1000 would lose is deluding themselves. Especially these days with current stamina levels and fitness. I've never directly watched a match between a male player and a top female player but what i have seen is Serena and Bouchard and Radwanska try and return a typical male/Isner serve and if memory servers, Only Radwanska and Serena even managed to even get their racquet on it, let alone get it back in play. Both of them are top 10 players who are quick and good returners.

Also if you're gonna say "well that's Isner, he has a huge serve that male players struggle with too" yeah they do. struggle with it, not fail to return it completely and it was a joke match, he wasn't taking it super serious. Also let me remind you, one of the players failing to return it was Serena Williams. Arguably the greatest WTA player ever.
Isner is not #1, he is not even in top 10
he used to be up to #8, a few short periods in top 10

but when we look at top men, their serve is nothing like Isner, so this argument that women wouldn't be able to return his serve...
men also can't return his serve, yet Novak and Rafa don't copy his serve

and arguably best returners in ATP don't break Isner left & right, quite often they play the tie-break and win the tie-break
Isner vs Nadal, 8 matches played, 7 tie-breaks
plenty of 7-5 & 6-4

Isner vs Djokovic, 12 matches player, 10 tie-breaks
plenty of 7-5 & 6-4
 

Firstservingman

Talk Tennis Guru
Id say 400-500 or so at least, maybe higher. The top women's players have more pure talent and skill than low-ranked male players, it's only the physicality holding them back. But as tennis becomes increasingly just about strength and endurance the gap will widen further.
 

Firstservingman

Talk Tennis Guru
This will never honestly be settled on a tennis court. It would be too devastating to the WTA.
Yes, it won't be, nor should it imo. They're seperate competitions. You wouldn't get the women's cricket team to play the men's for example. It would be unfair to everyone.
 

vex

Hall of Fame
If you believe that UTR is accurate, the WTA #1 Ash Barty has an UTR of 13.36 which is similar to ATP players ranked around 1,000. Novak Djokovic who is #1 on the ATP has an UTR just below 16 currently.

Having seen many ATP and WTA tournaments at all levels in person, I think that the Challenger/Futures level ATP players ranked between 800-1,000 do seem to be on par with top WTA pros and many of them get jobs as hitting partners for WTA players after they give up their dreams of making it on the ATP tour. The most obvious difference you can see between the top men and women are related to movement and serves - the men move much faster to play better defense and their serves have much more topspin at 10-20mph higher pace on average with the difference being greatest for 2nd serves. On ground strokes, you don’t notice much difference in pace, but the men hit a heavier ball with much more topspin.

If they played points off baseline feeds without serves and returns, I suspect that the top women might be closer in level to ATP men ranked around 500.
Most accurate post in thread. Wish we could just Pin this and be done with the topic. The WTA is tons of fun and great competition, if people don’t like it they don’t have to watch. Can only watch so much of the big 3 slaughtering everyone.
 

Swingmaster

Hall of Fame
i always wonder about the point of this question

if any top wta player had been born a man do u think theyd be less successful?

biology is the limiting factor
I don’t think it should be taboo to talk about it. Doesn’t make the ladies any less impressive.
 

Swingmaster

Hall of Fame
But at the very top level, there is probably no interest. What is there to gain in winning a man ranked like ATP 300? But definitely potential for losing face or respectability of the WTA, is lost badly.

Maybe something like WTA #40 against some ATP #400 would be feasible. But who'd pay to watch?!
The woman might actually have a shot if the crowd is a decent size. She would be more accustomed to a higher stakes situation. The man might be susceptible to choking. I’d like to see Barty versus a guy in the 300s on Wimbledon Center Court.
 

InsideOut900

Hall of Fame
The women in current the WTA are not the same as when BJK played her match. This age old arguement in today’s times is simply dated.
It's funny you are saying this considering the more physical a game gets, the more it disadvantages the players that are less physically gifted. At least in the wood racket era you could carry yourself through sheer hands and skill, no such luck today.

Yeah, they can hit hard, but their shots have a different weight, that makes absorbing and redirecting pace much easier for any half decent men player.

Reminder that Jannik Sinner hits harder than pretty much anyone other men right now and considerably harder than someone like Osaka and his power is still being handled just fine. Point numero uno to consider that just hitting hard ain't gonna cut it.

Point numero duo, the serve. An average serve in ATP is at the level of a GOAT server from WTA. This means a women is going to have to face a peak Serena serve when playing against an average ATP server. I wonder how it actually went for them when facing a GOATing Serena?

Point numero three, also tied to physicality, women have a worse explosive step when chasing balls and even from a stationary position, making their shot tolerance against heavy hitting (and heavy involving the extra spin, not just the raw pace) simply worse. That's the reverse of point number one. Man can handle pace without heavy spin, women cannot handle pace with heavy spin added.

Keep these stuff in mind the next time you make this comparison and also add that players around ranking 75-100 can actually play a competitive match against top players on their best days. So in spite of badly losing to top players in general, they can do stuff against top ranked ATP players that WTA players can only dream to. ;)

If I haven't been too harsh on this one, then I hope technical analysis of the difference between their games does it for you.
 

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
Speed is a function of strength so yes.

But they can muscle the ball almost as hard as we can. The big difference is in the movement, which I'm guessing is mostly due to hip structure.
No one generates pro level pace and RPMs by “muscling” the ball anyways, and WTA players who hit with high pace don’t generate the same RPMs. Not comparable between tours.
 

Erlang

Rookie
Yeah, they can hit hard, but their shots have a different weight, that makes absorbing and redirecting pace much easier for any half decent men player.
This is what a lot of people don't understand. Just being able to hit hard is not going to take you very far in the ATP.

There was a Russian player who came to town and won a bunch of Open level tournaments. He had a massive serve clocked at 130 mph, and a huge forehand to go with it. His shots sounded like a cannon going off. But even with those weapons, his best ATP ranking was in the Top 1200 range.

With his serve and forehand, I can't think of how even top WTA players would handle him
 

jhhachamp

Hall of Fame
I’m obviously in the minority, but some of these estimations are utterly ridiculous. I won’t argue that men have a physical advantage over women. However we’re talking about professional female tennis players. Comparing the world number 1 to a male player outside of the top 500 or 1000? I’d put money on Osaka, Sabalenka or Kvitova winning a match against an ATP player from 75-100. They’re all having success in WTA and I’m not saying they would do the same in the ATP, but I’d say they would rank at least 100 or so.
I'd say that your estimation is the one that is ridiculous. Osaka, Sabalenka, or Kvitiva would have no change against a top 100 men's player.
 

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
Some promoters should do an exhibition matches to answer this question here.
You need to go to the open weight division for women to find a woman who beats the weightlifting record in the lowest weight class for men. It is simple biology, some people today try to argue with such simple facts but there is a huge difference between men and women in terms of not only strength but basically everything that gives you an advantage in sports (in some parts it is closer but even in sports like sport shooting or darts men perform better).

I do think though that in tennis the gap is smaller than in other sports at it is way more technical than physical.
Yeah I mean I’m a casual when it comes to weightlifting and natty, and I squat 495 at about 200lbs. Never competed, just trained for hockey growing up, but totally out of shape these days. The women’s record at the same weight class for USPA (more strictly drug tested) is about 450. The men’s USPA record in the same weight class is something bonkers like 730.

In 2008, 09, 11, I spent some time at IMG, not for tennis, but obviously tennis pros were there. I remember Jankovic training against some nobody male teenager when she was still on top of her game and winning about half the points. One of the years I think it was Azarenka that was there and again she wasn’t able to hit through some mediocre hitting partners. Conversely, Tommy Haas would practice a couple courts down from Jelena and the level was night and day. Sometimes for fun
we would train in the gym with athletes from other sports - tennis, baseball, football, etc and there were some great female athletes but no one was delusional enough to think that the women and men should be targeting the same intensity and volume.

The technique factor in tennis becomes totally irrelevant because you can’t use your technique if you can’t react, get in position, and explode through the ball at the pace demanded by your opponent. Matches are ultimately still decided by physical gifts.

Canadian women’s hockey is the best in the world, and they train for the Olympics by playing games against various local teams of teenage boys, not even elite ones, noncontact, and still lose about half the time.

None of these comments are meant to be negative towards women. Men and women are just different. For some reason there are a lot of biology deniers out there but I can’t for the life of me understand why.
 

jm1980

G.O.A.T.
Canadian women’s hockey is the best in the world, and they train for the Olympics by playing games against various local teams of teenage boys, not even elite ones, noncontact, and still lose about half the time.
The US women's soccer team, who are also the best in the world, are competitive against middling U-15 boys' teams.

None of these comments are meant to be negative towards women. Men and women are just different. For some reason there are a lot of biology deniers out there but I can’t for the life of me understand why.
They aren't, but these days you can't even acknowledge this without being called names
 

Mike Bulgakov

G.O.A.T.
WTA players often play practice sets with top male juniors and D1 college players from programs like Stanford and UCLA.

From 2013:

Sharapova shakes rust by roughing up local boys
By Simon Cambers

MELBOURNE (Reuters) - Short of tournament sharpness in the build-up to the Australian Open because of injury, Maria Sharapova has found a novel way of playing herself into form - roughing up the local boys.

The Russian world number two has been getting into the groove by beating up on Australia’s top young players, having pulled out of Brisbane with a neck injury last week.

Sharapova has found some willing opponents in a couple of Australians, including Luke Saville, last year’s junior champion at Melbourne Park.

“I played a couple of the junior boys here - actually a good couple of Australian kids,” Sharapova told reporters on Saturday.

“I think one of them got a wild card in the main draw.”

That was Saville, who gave French Open champion Sharapova a real run for her money as she looked to blow away the cobwebs in time for her run at a second Australian Open title.

“We didn’t actually finish,” the four-time grand slam champion said. “The set took too long.”

The other hitting partner was 16-year-old Thanasi Kokkinakis, a player tipped as having a bright future and who impressed when stepping in for the injured John Isner at the Hopman Cup last week.

Unfortunately for Kokkinakis, Sharapova’s fiercely competitive streak ensured that she would not allow him the pleasure of a victory.

“One of them was really on top of me and then I got really mad,” said the 25-year-old, who tried to protect his identity. “I think he had eight set points and I ended up winning the set.

“I’m not going to tell who it is,” she laughed. “Too embarrassed. I don’t think he slept well after that one!

“It was just nice to be able to have different types of game styles as well.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/tennis-open-sharapova-idINDEE90B02420130112
 

Tennis_dude101

Semi-Pro
Didn't Rafa say in his autobiography that if he was practicing with the number 500 male player in the world you would not be able to tell who was the no 1 ranked player? To be ranked 500 on the ATP you still need very good technique.


Here is Rubin Statham when he was ranked 373 in the world upsetting Hyeon Chung(in the top 20 at the time) in NZ a few years go...

 

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
Didn't Rafa say in his autobiography that if he was practicing with the number 500 male player in the world you would not be able to tell who was the no 1 ranked player? To be ranked 500 on the ATP you still need very good technique.
This is true. I remember a low ranked guy winning a practice set against Haas and then asking him for a picture, and Tommy looking pissed off during the picture lol. Can’t remember the guy’s name though so can’t check his ranking at the time
 

Devilito

Hall of Fame
Honestly? They would struggle in future's and to get a few ATP points. HOWEVER, i've seen some crazy claims about how a random 5.0-5.5 could beat a top WTA player etc. Not even close. An ATP player with any points is at least a 6.0-6.5 level player that would very likely double bagel a 5.0 player. When some random eedeeot on this forum thinks they could take out some WTA player they saw on TV, they're full of BS.
 

Devilito

Hall of Fame
Didn't Rafa say in his autobiography that if he was practicing with the number 500 male player in the world you would not be able to tell who was the no 1 ranked player? To be ranked 500 on the ATP you still need very good technique.


Here is Rubin Statham when he was ranked 373 in the world upsetting Hyeon Chung(in the top 20 at the time) in NZ a few years go...

It's true. In terms of raw skill level when hitting, there is very little difference between a top 10 player and a many top 500 players. Even some players without ATP points would have no trouble rallying with a top ATP pro. Some players without ATP points would actually look better than some with ATP points. There is so much involved in what it takes to succeed on the ATP tour that goes far beyond your talent level. I'm sure many on this forum know of a player that had to quit tennis to get a job because of their economic standing that was an amazing player that never realized their potential because they never had the opportunity.
 

big ted

Hall of Fame

well one of these players is matin spec, the 1000 ranked player..
hard to see the man losing considering there’ seems to be such a genetic advantage
in athletic ability
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
I think if you have seen the ATP, WTA, ATP Challengers/Futures and male US college players in person, you would have a pretty good idea of the relative levels between the two tours. If you’ve only watched pro tennis on TV, it is almost impossible to understand the relative levels. The differences in spin, movement, serves etc are really in stark contrast between the two tours when you watch live in person.
 

Finster

Rookie
Didn't Rafa say in his autobiography that if he was practicing with the number 500 male player in the world you would not be able to tell who was the no 1 ranked player? To be ranked 500 on the ATP you still need very good technique.


Here is Rubin Statham when he was ranked 373 in the world upsetting Hyeon Chung(in the top 20 at the time) in NZ a few years go...

This is a good point. You not infrequently see males ranked around 200-300 beating players in the top 20. I don't think you would ever see that kind of result in the WTA. ATP players seem to be more competitive with each other no matter the rank of the players. WTA matches seem to be way more predictable based on rank.
 

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
Jack Sock is currently ranked 256. Can Osaka beat him?
You're asking a rhetorical question. You already know what your answer will be and I'm pretty sure you already know what mine is. I honestly don't care how many posters disagree or think it's outlandish that a top WTA player could beat a lower ranked ATP player. Until it actually happens, I'll stick with my argument.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
You're asking a rhetorical question. You already know what your answer will be and I'm pretty sure you already know what mine is. I honestly don't care how many posters disagree or think it's outlandish that a top WTA player could beat a lower ranked ATP player. Until it actually happens, I'll stick with my argument.
Question here is what exactly you mean with lower ranked player. If this means outside top 1,000 I would consider this possible depending on who we are talking. However, inside the top 100 is way to high for any WTA player to beat, this is honestly ridiculous. All man vs woman matches we had so far provide evidence of this. What exactly are your arguments/indications to believe that a top female player could beat a man inside the top 100?
 

blablavla

Legend
Didn't Rafa say in his autobiography that if he was practicing with the number 500 male player in the world you would not be able to tell who was the no 1 ranked player? To be ranked 500 on the ATP you still need very good technique.
right, this is why when top 10 plays vs folks on the lower edge of top 100, the results are consistently 6-0 or 6-1
I guess it goes both ways, no? cause we are not able to say who is top 10, and who is #95 or #103
 
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