which arm to generate power with 2 handed backhand?

[10isMaestro]

The left arm, in comparison, is straight all through the stroke. The arm is not in a great position to push the racquet through the contact point because of this. The elbow's straight so he can't push with his tricep, and the straight arm positioned to the side doesn't make for great leverage from the shoulder either. However the arm is fairly solid in it's structure, so the pulling right arm won't collapse the left and the pull on the racquet handle makes the racquet face come around. The left hand however is in a good position to control the angle of the racquet face.

I'll clarify my point. By left and right arm, I meant to reflect how the entire body uses either of them. When I say that Djokovic could "almost do away with his right arm," I mean to say that he's more or less hitting a left handed forehand with a bit of right handed support. He's clearly not using much of his right shoulder and back to pull the racket as he would on a one handed backhand. If you compare that with Nadal, it does become much clearer.

Djokovic uses a continental grip on his dominant hand for his backhand. As a consequence, his arm is bent and his wrist is in a rather awkward position to be doing anything ressembling a one handed backhand. He does pull it upward, but not much outward -- which was the point.

 

[rkelley]

I'll clarify my point. By left and right arm, I meant to reflect how the entire body uses either of them. When I say that Djokovic could "almost do away with his right arm," I mean to say that he's more or less hitting a left handed forehand with a bit of right handed support. He's clearly not using much of his right shoulder and back to pull the racket as he would on a one handed backhand. If you compare that with Nadal, it does become much clearer.

Djokovic uses a continental grip on his dominant hand for his backhand. As a consequence, his arm is bent and his wrist is in a rather awkward position to be doing anything ressembling a one handed backhand. He does pull it upward, but not much outward -- which was the point.

10isMaestro, I think I understand your point, I just don't agree with it (which is fine). I think the right hand is more than a bit of support. It's an integral part of the shot without which it wouldn't work.

One area where I think we agree is that Djoko et. al is not using his right arm like a 1hbh would. It's different. He's using the right arm to mostly pull on the racquet. The fact that he has a weak grip (continental) if he were trying to hit a 1hbh doesn't matter because that's not how he's using the hand/arm.

 

[10isMaestro]

The bent right arm pulls on the racquet handle. That pulling is responsible for a lot of the power in a 2hbh, especially one with a straight left arm

Where exactly he is pulling the racket? Forward and out? Toward himself?

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Lol, my $0.02 on this multi-opinionated topic

When I think of my 2hbh, I think that the power comes from the ground up...
* plant back leg
* coil
* push through ground to start the uncoil,... arms just hold on to transmit the power to the racquet

When I uncoil, it *feels* like there's a big pull on my front tricep (and it flexes in response), but it's more like the arm is catching up to the shoulder, which is being turned by the uncoil
The left arm, starts bent-ish, then around contact, also flexes and extends, but more to keep the racquet travelling tangentially to the rotation (ie. let's the racquet extend through contact toward the target) - otherwise it would "spin off the contact" narrowing my contact window.

When I'm hitting well, it feels like:
* 70% of the "power" (excluding incoming energy of ball) is coming from the coil/uncoil
* 20% coming from weight transfer
* 10% coming from the arms (which i try to keep loose, to keep the racquet in the "slot" )

Similar principles happen when say throwing a punch... power is not coming from the shoulders/arm... it's coming from the ground, and hip torque.

When I'm not hitting well, I do "arm" the ball, but usually it's because I've set up so poorly that I can't xfer power from the ground up... kinda like a moving train being on the wrong tracks, so I have to switch tracks, and restart momentum building from where I switch (ie. i arm the ball).

***

Side note, on a 1hbh, i try not to let my arm generate power (i let the coil/uncoil & weight xfer be the bulk of the power)... arm is trying to keep the racquet "in the slot", and transferring energy.

 

[Tight Lines]

The left arm, starts bent-ish, then around contact, also flexes and extends, but more to keep the racquet travelling tangentially to the rotation (ie. let's the racquet extend through contact toward the target) - otherwise it would "spin off the contact" narrowing my contact window.

I don't think this is possible and even if it is, it's a sure way to lose consistency if you are intentionally flexing and extending your wrist to increase the contact window. To me, increasing the contact window is from using ISR of your left arm. As you come into the contact zone, the ISR of the left arm keeps the racket face vertical over longer window. In my opinion, the left arm wrist must be laid back at all times once the forward swing occurs. JMHO.

Check out this video by Coach Mauro.

Harry

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I don't think this is possible and even if it is, it's a sure way to lose consistency if you are intentionally flexing and extending your wrist to increase the contact window. To me, increasing the contact window is from using ISR of your left arm. As you come into the contact zone, the ISR of the left arm keeps the racket face vertical over longer window. In my opinion, the left arm wrist must be laid back at all times once the forward swing occurs. JMHO.

Check out this video by Coach Mauro.

Harry

i didn't say anything about the wrist... (rereading my comment... yup "wrist" yields 0 search results) - just talking about the arm.
but just so we're on the same page... yes, i agree with you, that the left "arm wrist" (where else would a wrist be attached ), should be laid back

[edit]
maybe there is such thing as a left "foot wrist",... but normally i call that an "ankle"

 

[Tight Lines]

Oops, sorry. Somehow my brain read "wrist" into your sentence. My bad...

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Oops, sorry. Somehow my brain read "wrist" into your sentence. My bad...

lol, no worries. good vid though

 

[rkelley]

Where exactly he is pulling the racket? Forward and out? Toward himself?

I think the main pull is across the body, in line with the handle. That's the way the right arm is the strongest. The straight left arm keeps the racquet going forward. But there's definitely some up and away from the body too. You can really see that in Djoko's bh because of the way his right elbow moves away from his body a bit near contact. His right arm is definitely pulling the racquet up and away some. Ash has mentioned that he thinks this is a deliberate part of the right arm's role (Ash - please correct me if I'm misquoting you).

For a bent/bent bh I think it's a somewhat different. For bent/bent I think, but I'm not sure, that there's some push from the left arm and maybe the right plays less of a role. I don't hit that bh so I'm not really studying it.

 

[Bilders]

This video should help. Some great principles:

 

[Rozroz]

the above video really summons up the best way of gripping a modern BH,
and explains the efficiency.

 

[10isMaestro]

I think the main pull is across the body, in line with the handle. That's the way the right arm is the strongest. The straight left arm keeps the racquet going forward. But there's definitely some up and away from the body too. You can really see that in Djoko's bh because of the way his right elbow moves away from his body a bit near contact. His right arm is definitely pulling the racquet up and away some. Ash has mentioned that he thinks this is a deliberate part of the right arm's role (Ash - please correct me if I'm misquoting you).

I see.

For a bent/bent bh I think it's a somewhat different. For bent/bent I think, but I'm not sure, that there's some push from the left arm and maybe the right plays less of a role. I don't hit that bh so I'm not really studying it.

I tried a lot to hit a two handed backhand with a straight/bent configuration and it just doesn't seem to work well for me. However, as I do happen to have played a single handed backhand for years, I thought I'd give the two handed backhand another shot with a tad more extreme grip and both arms straight. Do you think I could benefit from trying to tap into my previous habits (although I do realize it won't be identical) ?

 

[rkelley]

I see.



I tried a lot to hit a two handed backhand with a straight/bent configuration and it just doesn't seem to work well for me. However, as I do happen to have played a single handed backhand for years, I thought I'd give the two handed backhand another shot with a tad more extreme grip and both arms straight. Do you think I could benefit from trying to tap into my previous habits (although I do realize it won't be identical) ?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking.

Very generally I'd say if you're trying to go to a 2hbh, especially from a one hander, start with a very strong left handed grip on the racquet and just a couple of fingers of your right hand on the racquet. Before you worry about right arm pull you just need to get the feel of allowing your left arm to control the racquet. I'd just practice very easy swings, feet set-up neutral, get your shoulders turned, and then just bring your shoulders around nice and easy and let your left hand swing the racquet into the ball. The right hand just stabilizing things for now. You can't rip a ball a bazillion mph this way, but you can hit decent shot. Get that feel. Do that for a many hitting sessions - nice solid balls, easy stroke. Eventually use a continental grip on the right hand, but let the left arm drive the racquet, don't swing hard.

Once you get that feeling of hitting a decent ball with just the left hand, then start adding in some right hand/arm. As you're doing that nice, easy left handed swing start pulling a bit with the right hand. A little pull from the right arm should add some nice pop to your bh. As you swing harder, a lot of the extra power is coming from increasing the pull on that right arm, not from swing the left arm harder. If you're doing it right you should be able to rip the racquet into the ball quite nicely.

This is mostly focused on a straight left arm at contact. If you go bent/bent, then the left arm is doing more I think.

 

[10isMaestro]

I did find hitting left handed forehands to be useful. I was more wondering about how the shot is performed when you go at it with more of an extreme grip and extended arms -- like Nadal, for instance.

 

[rkelley]

I did find hitting left handed forehands to be useful. I was more wondering about how the shot is performed when you go at it with more of an extreme grip and extended arms -- like Nadal, for instance.

I'm not too sure really. I've shadow swung that way for fun to see how it felt but I don't hit that way. The players that I look at are Djoko, maybe Nishikori and Nalbandian a little. Those guys have incredible bhs so why not go with it.

 

[Rozroz]

I'm not too sure really. I've shadow swung that way for fun to see how it felt but I don't hit that way. The players that I look at are Djoko, maybe Nishikori and Nalbandian a little. Those guys have incredible bhs so why not go with it.

because you might have a more natural way of 2HBH that might be different than some of the top guys you mentioned, but similar to other ones.

 

[rkelley]

because you might have a more natural way of 2HBH that might be different than some of the top guys you mentioned, but similar to other ones.

True. There are definitely other way to hit a 2hbh at a high level.

 

[Muppet]

I originally chose to hit with a 2HBH because Jimmy Connors and Andre Agassi were using them. But I didn't try to emulate their strokes. 2HBH has always been my regular backhand ground stroke.

At first, I tried a straight arm approach. But after a while I found that I could get more natural power by focusing on pulling with the right hand (dominant) and relaxing both arms. I thought of it as a lefty baseball swing, but I didn't get a lot of control that way.

A couple of years later I heard about supplying the power with the left hand, so I tried that. I got a lot more control with that stroke and good power, but it felt awkward.

Next development came when I thought of my 2HBH as being like a golf stroke. I thought of a triangle from my shoulders to my hands. But I allowed a little more movement in my elbows. Using both arms equally lent balance to my swing and thinking of both hands as one unit was also helpful. Thank goodness tennis racquets aren't as sensitive to hooking and slicing as golf clubs are.

Now I don't have a dominant arm for my 2HBH. If I need to adjust my timing or need more power, my arms are flexible enough to supply it without thinking about the bio-mechanics. The first ten or so years that I skied I had a dominant leg. After a few more years, I was able to ski without thinking about it. It's like that.

The finishing touch was watching a video clip of Michael Chang's 2HBH. As he steps in, his arms lag back in the back swing and he lays his hands and racquet back and down a little from his wrists, closing the face a little. And his left arm is bent more than his right. Then he's fully coiled and can execute his forward stroke.

I find that having the left arm bent a little more does help with timing and power at impact with the ball and just before. If it is done consistently, I don't think it would be a detriment to anyone's technique. If you swat at the ball erratically from the wrists, that could make you very inconsistent and risking injury.

So my advice is to pick a place to start that feels more or less natural to you, be it right hand pull dominant or left hand push dominant, and move your focus around until you find what will work well for you long term.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I originally chose to hit with a 2HBH because Jimmy Connors and Andre Agassi were using them. But I didn't try to emulate their strokes. 2HBH has been my first and only backhand ground stroke.

At first, I tried a straight arm approach. But after a while I found that I could get more natural power by focusing on pulling with the right hand (dominant) and relaxing both arms. I thought of it as a lefty baseball swing, but I didn't get a lot of control that way.

A couple of years later I heard about supplying the power with the left hand, so I tried that. I got a lot more control with that stroke and good power, but it felt awkward.

Next development came when I thought of my 2HBH as being like a golf stroke. I thought of a triangle from my shoulders to my hands. But I allowed a little more movement in my elbows. Using both arms equally lent balance to my swing and thinking of both hands as one unit was also helpful.

The finishing touch was watching a video clip of Michael Chang's 2HBH. As he steps in, his arms lag back in the back swing and he lays his hands and racquet back and down a little from his wrists, closing the face a little. And his left arm is bent more than his right. Then he's fully coiled and can execute his forward stroke.

I find that having the left arm bent a little more does help with timing and power at impact with the ball and just before. If it is done consistently, I don't think it would be a detriment to anyone's technique. If you swat at the ball erratically from the wrists, that could make you very inconsistent and risking injury.

So my advice is to pick a place to start that feels more or less natural to you, be it right hand pull dominant or left hand push dominant, and move your focus around until you find what will work well for you long term.

The golf swing concept is also how I think of it. Make a triangle, etc.

 

[Muppet]

The golf swing concept is also how I think of it. Make a triangle, etc.

Cross-training rocks!

 

[Bender]

under most circumstances, the power doesn't come from the arm, but from the unwinding of the kinetic chain which starts with shifting weight to the back leg, shoulder turn and then the hip snap to start the weight transfer forward.

I'm left arm dominant but ever since I've relaxed my arms and let my core do 95% of the work, I can't even tell which arm is doing the work.

It's only when I'm being pushed out wide and have to still hit a backhand CC or DTL when it becomes left arm dominant (and it's REALLY good for that since it's easier to change angles with your non dominant arm than with your dominant one since it's closer to the head of the racquet and can therefore control the racquet face more easily).