Which big 3 player "overachieved" the most given their abilities?

Which big 3 player "overachieved" the most given their abilities?

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NoleFam said:
No. Tsitsipas was better in 1st and 2nd sets, but Stan was wayyy better in 3rd and 4th sets compared to Tsitsipas, so Stan was better. Wawrinka actually played pretty nervous himself for a set and half before he settled into the match.
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9/10 vs 8/10?
 
Dennis Peterson said:
Djokovic's GOAT Backhand, GOAT return and his flexibility are his deadly weapons.
He is the only person in history who has "tamed" Nadal, everyone else old/young have succumbed to the bull, people 12-14 years younger don't like to face his forehand, only Novak's supreme backhand provides him the means to tame the bull.
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He tamed Nadal coming off his peak and when he’d already won 11 slams and the career slam and OG.
When Nadal was peaking just a year older than Djokovic, there was zero taming going on. Just bending over.
:giggle:
 
RS said:
For me RG 15 Djokovic is underrated because of how Stan played. Against his 2021 Djokovic he wouldn't be so scared of the power and would show his older version who was boss.

:D
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Not to me. 2015 had the capability to play a higher level than 2021 but he just didn't. Look at the ballstriking between the 2 versions in the particular matches. Case in point, the 4-5 30-40 point where Stan had set point on Djokovic's serve. Look at how Djokovic is guiding that forehand, lower pace and aiming for topspin and instead of opening up his shoulders and drilling those shots. Look where the balls are landing and how far back behind the baseline he is. That's the story of the match and why he lost. Now look at Djokovic's court positioning against Tstisipas and how much more aggressive he was overall. That's the difference.
 
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NoleFam said:
Not to me. 2015 had the capability to play a higher level than 2021 but he just didn't. Look at the ballstriking between the 2 versions in the particular matches. Case in point, the 4-5 30-40 point where Stan had set point on Djokovic's serve. Look at how Djokovic is guiding that forehand, lower pace and aiming for topspin and instead of opening up his shoulders and drilling those shots. Look where the balls are landing and how far back behind the baseline he is. That's the story of the match and why he lost. Now look at Djokovic's court positioning against Tstisipas and how much more aggressive he was overall. That's the difference.
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2021 Djokovic vs 2006 Fed and Nadal at RG?
 
NatF said:
Nadal couldn't even play five sets and was obviously compromised even compared to his own diminished Old'dal level. You may have a vested interest in not calling a spade a spade but nothing is stopping me lol. Agree to disagree if you're want.
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You seem to think Wawrinka is capable of doing to Nadal what Djokovic can. I don't. That might be because Wawrinka only won 6 games against him in both matches at RG. Humilated in 2017. That version is more than capable of putting down Wawrinka and it definitely wouldn't go 5. Lol.
 
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NoleFam said:
You seem to think Wawrinka is capable of doing to Nadal what Djokovic can. I don't. That might be because Wawrinka only won 6 games against him in both matches at RG. Humilated in 2017. That version is more than capable 9f putting down Wawrinka and it definitely wouldn't go 5. Lol.
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2013 and 2017 Nadal crap allover 2021 Nadal. Completely different standard of tennis lol.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
If the 2015 Rome match didn't happen you'd probably claim Wawrinka was incapable of beating any Nadal on any clay at all.
Reminds of so-called people who claim no version of Federer could have possibly beaten even 2015dal at RG, bgg.
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Why would anyone claim that? Plenty of players have beaten Nadal in BO3 on clay. How many have actually done it in a BO5 though? Just because Wawrinka put down a Djokovic who had only mustered 3 measly forehand winners by 4-5 in the 2nd set, doesn't mean he's gonna beat the main man on his court. I'm willing to bet you he's not.
 
NoleFam said:
Dude stop..lol
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What he said was hardly a controversial take. If that version of Stan were to lose to 2021 Nadal (and Nadal was very, very far from his best in that match so I wouldn't guarantee it), it would be because of how well Nadal matches up against him, not really because of how well Nadal actually played in 2021. Using the 2017 match as a comparison isn't exactly as watertight as you make it seem because, for one, Nadal was wayyyyyy better in 2017 than 2021, and secondly, Stan wasn't at his best in that one--besides being effectively out of his prime at that point, Stan was also a little worn down from the Murray SF. The point is that there are too many nuances in the 2017 match for people to use it as an example of how a matchup between two completely different versions of those players would go down.

And anyway, I think it should be clear that disregarding how those two players match up against each other, 2015 Stan was a much tougher opponent than 2021 Nadal. I don't even see how this is up for debate.
 
Third Serve said:
What he said was hardly a controversial take. If that version of Stan were to lose to 2021 Nadal (and Nadal was very, very far from his best in that match so I wouldn't guarantee it), it would be because of how well Nadal matches up against him, not really because of how well Nadal actually played in 2021. Using the 2017 match as a comparison isn't exactly as watertight as you make it seem because, for one, Nadal was wayyyyyy better in 2017 than 2021, and secondly, Stan wasn't at his best in that one--besides being effectively out of his prime at that point, Stan was also a little worn down from the Murray SF. The point is that there are too many nuances in the 2017 match for people to use it as an example of how a matchup between two completely different versions of those players would go down.

And anyway, I think it should be clear that disregarding how those two players match up against each other, 2015 Stan was a much tougher opponent than 2021 Nadal. I don't even see how this is up for debate.
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I didn't say it was controversial. I just don't agree with it. Lol. Not only is it a terrible matchup for Wawrinka, I don't think he has the belief to actually beat him in a BO5 on clay. Almost no one does actually. It's more than level of play. It's mental. He got destroyed in 2017. Simply no excuses for it to be that lopsided at that point in their careers. Even Thiem did better than that. Besides, Nadal didn't play as terrible as you are claiming. This is the same Nadal that just 8 months prior destroyed Djokovic. Djokovic played a very high level that night to defeat him and Nadal threw the kitchen sink at him for 3 sets. You think Wawrinka comes out of that and wins? I don't.
 
NoleFam said:
I didn't say it was controversial. I just don't agree with it. Lol. Not only is it a terrible matchup for Wawrinka, I don't think he has the belief to actually beat him in a BO5 on clay. Almost no one does actually. It's more than level of play. It's mental. He got destroyed in 2017. Simply no excuses for it to be that lopsided at that point in their careers. Even Thiem did better than that. Besides, Nadal didn't play as terrible as you are claiming. This is the same Nadal that just 8 months prior destroyed Djokovic. Djokovic played a very high level that night to defeat him and Nadal threw the kitchen sink at him for 3 sets. You think Wawrinka comes out of that and wins? I don't.
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Nadal played an incredible final in 2017... I think you downplay that too much. We've not really seen that kind of level displayed at, I would argue, ANY Slam since then, with the exception of AO 2019 which was a beatdown with strikingly similar circumstances. There was definitely a mental aspect to Stan's loss that day, but I would chalk most of it down to Nadal's level of play and Stan's relative fatigue.

Nadal didn't play terribly in 2021 (he's only ever played two outright bad matches at RG imo: the 2015 QF and the 2022 SF) but he was fairly average on the whole, save for the first set where he was close to 2020 levels and the last set where he completely ran out of stamina (another thing that distinguishes him from his 2017 version and something Stan could take advantage of). Djokovic played well, I will acknowledge that. I will stop short of saying "very high level" but he played a nice match overall.

I think peak Stan could come out of that... he's made it through worse. 2021 Nadal throwing the kitchen sink at someone really just amounts to maintaining a slugfest and letting Djokovic almost choke away the third set. Their 2022 rematch does a nice job at exposing the flaws in Nadal's game in 2021 (and in revealing the finer aspects of Djokovic's game in 2021). Fact is he lacks most (not all, obviously; he's still quite good on the surface) of the attributes nowadays that made him such a dangerous clay court player to begin with. It's hard to identify a single aspect of Nadal's physical game in that match that was better than what Stan displayed in 2015. FH? BH? Serve? Even movement? I don't see it tbh. As I said, he would have to win on aspects particular to his matchup with Stan (court dynamics, mental strength, etc.), not on his actual strength as a player.

If we were to continue down the matchup discussion, it would not be difficult for me to make a case that 2015 Stan would defeat 2021 Djokovic without much drama.
 
NoleFam said:
And he did...Besides 2022 was a lower quality match than 2021. Nadal lost to Djokovic though so it was his worst version. Lol.
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You don't think 2021 was a bottom 2 FO level from Nadal? :unsure: For what it's worth Nadal's win this year's was clearly his worst as well. The sad fact is the standard of play these guys are winning slams with is the lowest in their careers.
 
NoleFam said:
And he did...Besides 2022 was a lower quality match than 2021. Nadal lost to Djokovic though so it was his worst version. Lol.
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What really stood out from the 2021 Match was the third set, which I must admit was STELLAR (until Nadal's volley miss in the tiebreak) but, otherwise, nothing to write home about.
The match of the following year, without being a piece of art, is superior.
You can say that your idol played better last year but what really makes the difference on clay is Nadal's level, and this year's version, without being one of the best, played at a high level, on average, in the whole match (unlike the one in 2021) and that is always enough for him to be victorious at Roland Garros.
:cool:
 
Third Serve said:
Nadal played an incredible final in 2017... I think you downplay that too much. We've not really seen that kind of level displayed at, I would argue, ANY Slam since then, with the exception of AO 2019 which was a beatdown with strikingly similar circumstances. There was definitely a mental aspect to Stan's loss that day, but I would chalk most of it down to Nadal's level of play and Stan's relative fatigue.

Nadal didn't play terribly in 2021 (he's only ever played two outright bad matches at RG imo: the 2015 QF and the 2022 SF) but he was fairly average on the whole, save for the first set where he was close to 2020 levels and the last set where he completely ran out of stamina (another thing that distinguishes him from his 2017 version and something Stan could take advantage of). Djokovic played well, I will acknowledge that. I will stop short of saying "very high level" but he played a nice match overall.

I think peak Stan could come out of that... he's made it through worse. 2021 Nadal throwing the kitchen sink at someone really just amounts to maintaining a slugfest and letting Djokovic almost choke away the third set. Their 2022 rematch does a nice job at exposing the flaws in Nadal's game in 2021 (and in revealing the finer aspects of Djokovic's game in 2021). Fact is he lacks most (not all, obviously; he's still quite good on the surface) of the attributes nowadays that made him such a dangerous clay court player to begin with. It's hard to identify a single aspect of Nadal's physical game in that match that was better than what Stan displayed in 2015. FH? BH? Serve? Even movement? I don't see it tbh. As I said, he would have to win on aspects particular to his matchup with Stan (court dynamics, mental strength, etc.), not on his actual strength as a player.

If we were to continue down the matchup discussion, it would not be difficult for me to make a case that 2015 Stan would defeat 2021 Djokovic without much drama.
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I'm not downplaying 2017 Nadal at all. I think it was one of the greatest performances in his career honestly. With that said, Wawrinka had won RG a couple of years prior. Federer and Djokovic played versions just as good and even better versions, and won sets. That can't be overlooked. It's not just that he lost, it's that he wasn't ever in the match. Wasn't in 2013 either.

I don't think Nadal was average in the 1st or 3rd sets. Have to disagree there but fair enough.

I just simply think you're overrating Wawrinka. He's a great player but honestly on clay, Soderling was better. Too bad for Soderling in that he actually beat Nadal smack in his peak but ended up with nothing. Wawrinka took advantage of a lull at RG when Nadal was struggling and kudos to him for taking advantage. Djokovic was able to take advantage as well. However, I am not granting Wawrinka wins on this based on what I have seen already in both matches played. He was a great player in 2013 and up to that point in 2017 and he was made into a bystander.

We're all welcome to our opinions on how we see the game and free to agree or disagree with each other. I just simply disagree on this viewpoint.
 
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NatF said:
You don't think 2021 was a bottom 2 FO level from Nadal? :unsure: For what it's worth Nadal's win this year's was clearly his worst as well. The sad fact is the standard of play these guys are winning slams with is the lowest in their careers.
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I think 2022 was worse. He scraped through that. He's so good at RG that he can play that bad and still win. That's part of the reason why I wouldn't bet on Wawrinka beating the 2021 version.
 
DSH said:
What really stood out from the 2021 Match was the third set, which I must admit was STELLAR (until Nadal's volley miss in the tiebreak) but, otherwise, nothing to write home about.
The match of the following year, without being a piece of art, is superior.
You can say that your idol played better last year but what really makes the difference on clay is Nadal's level, and this year's version, without being one of the best, played at a high level, on average, in the whole match (unlike the one in 2021) and that is always enough for him to be victorious at Roland Garros.
:cool:
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I don't think Nadal played a better match in 2022 versus 2021. He was pretty lucky it didn't go 5 and that he didn't have to play two 5 setters in a row. Djokovic being so below par and clearly gassed was unable to hold serve and push it to a 5th.
 
I would honestly give RG 2021 Djokovic around a 35% chance of beating RG 2015 Stan.

Let's call that 7-13.
 
Nadal. He should have 2 HC slam titles tops.

Djokovic overachieved at Wimbledon, but underachieved at RG and the USO.
 
duaneeo said:
Nadal. He should have 2 HC slam titles tops.

Djokovic overachieved at Wimbledon, but underachieved at RG and the USO.
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Don't make me laugh, Nadal should have twice as many titles as he has in Australia today and as much as they make fun of his titles at the US Open, the Spaniard has lost several opportunities there where he could be the champion.
And no, the Serbian has not underarchieved at RG in any way.
:whistle:
 
DSH said:
Don't make me laugh, Nadal should have twice as many titles as he has in Australia today and as much as they make fun of his titles at the US Open, the Spaniard has lost several opportunities there where he could be the champion.
And no, the Serbian has not underarchieved at RG in any way.
:whistle:
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I feel the same way. When he said Rafa should only have 2 hard court slams max, I laughed. Rafa has been so incredibly unlucky at the AO where he should have several more titles considering everything. Rafa has underachieved at the AO if anything.
 
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NoleFam said:
I'm not downplaying 2017 Nadal at all. I think it was one of the greatest performances in his career honestly. With that said, Wawrinka had won RG a couple of years prior. Federer and Djokovic played versions just as good and even better versions, and won sets. That can't be overlooked. It's not just that he lost, it's that he wasn't ever in the match. Wasn't in 2013 either.

I don't think Nadal was average in the 1st or 3rd sets. Have to disagree there but fair enough.

I just simply think you're overrating Wawrinka. He's a great player but honestly on clay, Soderling was better. Too bad for Soderling in that he actually beat Nadal smack in his peak but ended up with nothing. Wawrinka took advantage of a lull at RG when Nadal was struggling and kudos to him for taking advantage. Djokovic was able to take advantage as well. However, I am not granting Wawrinka wins on this based on what I have seen already in both matches played. He was a great player in 2013 and up to that point in 2017 and he was made into a bystander.

We're all welcome to our opinions on how we see the game and free to agree or disagree with each other. I just simply disagree on this viewpoint.
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Fair enough.
 
Btw; obviously Fed

we’re talking about a guy who got to play that MUG frat boy Roddick 4 times in slam finals, choking Marin Cryic in 2 more, skirt wearing baby Murray who needed his bottle in 3 others, CLOWNS like Philly, Gonzy, Baggy, and Hewitt, and then exhausted Safin and Soderling who couldn’t even stand up straight for the pre match photo..

and there are arguments saying Nole and Rafa overachieved more? ROFLMAO
 
NatF said:
Nadal couldn't even play five sets and was obviously compromised even compared to his own diminished Old'dal level. You may have a vested interest in not calling a spade a spade but nothing is stopping me lol. Agree to disagree if you're want.
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What do you think of the young guys coming through now, though? Seems to be a lot of players in that 18-22 age range that are going to be ushering a new strong era, or are do you think it’s soo early to tell? These guys all seem like killers to me. Very different mentally / personality-wise from the generation of Kyrgios, Tsitsipas, Medvedev, Kachanov etc etc but with similar physical gifts.
 
Subway Tennis said:
What do you think of the young guys coming through now, though? Seems to be a lot of players in that 18-22 age range that are going to be ushering a new strong era, or are do you think it’s soo early to tell? These guys all seem like killers to me. Very different mentally / personality-wise from the generation of Kyrgios, Tsitsipas, Medvedev, Kachanov etc etc but with similar physical gifts.
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Thing is, even adjusting for age the NextGen had similar (I’d even say better) beginnings and wins as young players. And they played tougher versions of the Big 3. ex: Zverev winning YEC 18, beating Fed, Djoker, Thiem in Masters finals; Tsitsipas beating Djokogic first two times on HC, winning against both Nadal and Federer at the AO, even Rublev has wins against each of the big 3.

What even is FAA or Sinner’s best win at a Slam? Zverev? For the life of me I can’t think of any significant Slam win that they’ve pulled - even Alcaraz had a very tough time winning USO against a very easy draw.

Don’t get me wrong I think this is going to be the best generation since 85-89… but they need to prove it. The NextGen had better bo3 wins than these guys do.
 
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