Which big 3 player "overachieved" the most given their abilities?

[RS]

Who played at a higher level?

1. Djokovic RG 08 SF or Federer USO 15 final
2. Davydenko RG 07 SF or Nadal RG 21 SF
3. Roddick Wim 03 SF or Nalbandian USO 03 SF
4. Roddick AO 04 QF or Agassi USO 04 QF
5. Roddick Wim 04 final or Nadal RG 14 final
6. Nadal RG 06 final or Djokovic AO 12 final
7. Nadal AO 09 SF or Djokovic Wim 15 final

All of them good debates.

 

[I Am Finnish]

Fedr

 

[BauerAlmeida]

2015 Stan beats 2021, 2022 and 2014 final versions of Rafa. Saying that as a Rafa supporter. 2021, no explanation needed, doesn’t have stamina after 3 sets.
2022, probably Rafa’s worst showing despite winning. 2014, Stan would play that broken-back Rafa with no serve in the final.

Wawrinka doesn't beat 2014 Nadal, no chance. Nobody does if Djokovic couldn't take him to 5 at least. Maybe a peaking Davydenko or Nalbandian, but I doubt it.

I also don't think he wins 2021. Nadal doesn't lose the 4th so easily if he's a set away from victory instead of 2. Very few players beat that Nadal, almost everyone else loses the 3rd.

I do think Wawrinka has a strong chance of beating 2022 Nadal if he plays at his best. But the thing is Wawrinka struggles to play his best against Nadal, especially on clay. Wawrinka won't play against Nadal as he does against Djokovic, just like Davydenko can't play his best against Djokovic as he does against Nadal.

 

[TennisFan3]

It's pretty obvious: Federer.
He was lucky to get all those slams without ATGs until Nadal/Djokovic came about.

Imagine Fed/Nadal/Novak of the same age. Fed wouldn't even be in the big 3, there would be only a big 2.

 

[mike danny]

Djokovic overachieved at Wimb
Nadal overachieved at the USO
Federer overachieved at the AO

 

[mike danny]

Yea pretty much. Maybe one more RG and one less Wimbledon but that would have been the max he should have gotten in this era at RG though. I still think he let 2015 slip through his fingers. He should have tamed the beast that day.

I'd say 2 less Wimb's for Djokovic and 1-2 more USO's.

 

[mike danny]

2015 Djokovic would have lost the final to Tsitsipas. Lol.

Let's not go that far LOL. Djokovic's defensive game would have been enough against Stefanos.

 

[mike danny]

Up until 2014 inclusive, Djokovic was an underachiever.

Since then, he's much closer to an overachiever than underachiever.

 

[travlerajm]

To paraphrase Federer's fans, if Nadal were younger than Djokovic, the head to head would be favorable to the Spanish player.

Nadal is almost the same age as Djokovic in earth revolutions, but in biological mileage years he is about 6 years older now.

 

[RS]

Would Djokovic in AO 15 F and USO 15 F form have stopped Stan in RG 15 F form?

 

[RS]

Who played at a higher level?

1. Djokovic RG 08 SF or Federer USO 15 final
2. Davydenko RG 07 SF or Nadal RG 21 SF
3. Roddick Wim 03 SF or Nalbandian USO 03 SF
4. Roddick AO 04 QF or Agassi USO 04 QF
5. Roddick Wim 04 final or Nadal RG 14 final
6. Nadal RG 06 final or Djokovic AO 12 final
7. Nadal AO 09 SF or Djokovic Wim 15 final

Tie
Tie
Tie
Tie
Nadal
Possibly Djokovic
Tie

 

[NoleFam]

I'd say 2 less Wimb's for Djokovic and 1-2 more USO's.

Why 2 less? Who else deserved them? I said one less because there's a strong case that he should have lost in 2019. Then again, he would have been a strong favorite in 2020 that didn't get played. Yes on USO. He lost way too many finals there.

 

[RS]

Let's not go down the Djokovic Wim road again

 

[NoleFam]

Let's not go that far LOL. Djokovic's defensive game would have been enough against Stefanos.

Not in my opinion.

2015 stats after 1st two sets
Wawrinka - 28 winners/24 unforced errors
Djokovic - 13 winners/21 unforced errors (only 3 forehand winners)

2021 after 1st two sets
Tsitsipas - 27 winners/12 unforced errors
Djokovic - 21 winners/22 unforced errors

Tsitsipas was simply on fire in those 1st two sets. Djokovic hitting more winners and about the same amount of errors against a much younger and taller player in 2021, and who was more athletic. Falls in line with my view that he was quite passive in 2015, but also erratic for his standards. Guiding the ball isn't going to win you Slams. Just because 2015 was peak Djokovic doesn't mean he played a great final. I think he played a better SF or SF/F combo in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2016 and 2021 than 2015. That's why I would bank on Tsitsipas beating him plus I just think he was too tight to play a better match.

 

[DSH]

Why 2 less? Who else deserved them? I said one less because there's a strong case that he should have lost in 2019. Then again, he would have been a strong favorite in 2020 that didn't get played. Yes on USO. He lost way too many finals there.

He should have lost the 2018 Wimbledon semifinals, too.

 

[RS]

Not in my opinion.

2015 stats after 1st two sets
Wawrinka - 28 winners/24 unforced errors
Djokovic - 13 winners/21 unforced errors (only 3 forehand winners)

2021 after 1st two sets
Tsitsipas - 27 winners/12 unforced errors
Djokovic - 21 winners/22 unforced errors

Tsitsipas was simply on fire in those 1st two sets. Djokovic hitting more winners and about the same amount of errors against a much younger and taller player in 2021, and who was more athletic. Falls in line with my view that he was quite passive in 2015, but also erratic for his standards. Guiding the ball isn't going to win you Slams. Just because 2015 was peak Djokovic doesn't mean he played a great final. I think he played a better SF or SF/F combo in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2016 and 2021 than 2015. That's why I would bank on Tsitsipas beating him plus I just think he was too tight to play a better match.

I know you won't answer this but if 2021 Djokovic played 2015 Stan 10 times what is the score?

Or at least scrap that and do 2012 or 2016 or both players in the RG 21 SF out of 10.

 

[NoleFam]

Let's not go down the Djokovic Wim road again

Nadal was never truly leading the match. Not really a strong case he deserved to win.

 

[NoleFam]

I know you won't answer this but if 2021 Djokovic played 2015 Stan 10 times what is the score?

Or at least scrap that and do 2012 or 2016.

Why are you trolling so hard these last couple of days? Chill.

 

[RS]

Why are you trolling so hard these last couple of days? Chill.

I'm not. It's a convo.

 

[RS]

I was going to open a RG 08 Djokovic vs RG 21 or 22 Nadal thread

 

[RS]

Nadal was never truly leading the match. Not really a strong case he deserved to win.

You started that one

Which Djok do you rate higher Wim or USO that year?

 

[DSH]

I was going to open a RG 08 Djokovic vs RG 21 or 22 Nadal thread

Quit that addiction.

 

[DSH]

There is nothing called should have won or should have lost, whoever wins is a worthy winner, ALWAYS.

Federer's fans inaugurated a vast section of matches where their idol was supposed to have won.
I think I've caught it from them.

 

[mike danny]

Not in my opinion.

2015 stats after 1st two sets
Wawrinka - 28 winners/24 unforced errors
Djokovic - 13 winners/21 unforced errors (only 3 forehand winners)

2021 after 1st two sets
Tsitsipas - 27 winners/12 unforced errors
Djokovic - 21 winners/22 unforced errors

Tsitsipas was simply on fire in those 1st two sets. Djokovic hitting more winners and about the same amount of errors against a much younger and taller player in 2021, and who was more athletic. Falls in line with my view that he was quite passive in 2015, but also erratic for his standards. Guiding the ball isn't going to win you Slams. Just because 2015 was peak Djokovic doesn't mean he played a great final. I think he played a better SF or SF/F combo in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2016 and 2021 than 2015. That's why I would bank on Tsitsipas beating him plus I just think he was too tight to play a better match.

Tsitsipas can't hit like Wawrinka which is what matters more. 2021 Tsitsipas who was a complete goner after set 2 isn't beating 2015 Djokovic in a slam final.

Stan is just a much tougher match-up, which Tsitsipas isn't and will never be.

 

[mike danny]

Why 2 less? Who else deserved them? I said one less because there's a strong case that he should have lost in 2019. Then again, he would have been a strong favorite in 2020 that didn't get played. Yes on USO. He lost way too many finals there.

5 Wimb titles is a good number for Djokovic. His last 2 are just due to the worst grass court field of all time so that's why I don't really take them seriously.

 

[RS]

Keep up with the takes guys.

 

[NoleFam]

Tsitsipas can't hit like Wawrinka which is what matters more. 2021 Tsitsipas who was a complete goner after set 2 isn't beating 2015 Djokovic in a slam final.

Stan is just a much tougher match-up, which Tsitsipas isn't and will never be.

Tsistsipas doesn't have the backhand of Wawrinka which is the main difference. His forehand can be lethal. Why not? 2015 Djokovic played such an amazing match? He blew a 3-0 lead in the 4th and isn't hitting many penetrating forehands.

Wawrinka is a tougher matchup but Tsitsipas on clay is not an easy matchup for Djokovic by any means. He scraped through both RG matches and escaped in 2021 Rome as well. 2015 Djokovic was outplayed but he also felt immense pressure in that match.

 

[NoleFam]

5 Wimb titles is a good number for Djokovic. His last 2 are just due to the worst grass court field of all time so that's why I don't really take them seriously.

Worst grass field of all time (in your opinion) isn't a valid reason why he should have less. You can't invent imaginary players of the future to come in and give him more obstacles. The field is what the field is, and he's better than the field so his titles are well deserved. Of course, there's an argument he should have lost in 2019.

 

[DSH]

Tsistsipas doesn't have the backhand of Wawrinka which is the main difference. His forehand can be lethal. Why not? 2015 Djokovic played such an amazing match? He blew a 3-0 lead in the 4th and isn't hitting many penetrating forehands.

Wawrinka is a tougher matchup but Tsitsipas on clay is not an easy matchup for Djokovic by any means. He scraped through both RG matches and escaped in 2021 Rome as well. 2015 Djokovic was outplayed but he also felt immense pressure in that match.

If Tsitsipas couldn't beat a vulnerable version of Djokovic in 2021, even less so against his peak version.

 

[RS]

On a scale of one to 10 what's Djokovic RG 15 final?

I don't think it's less than a 7. Correct me if that's slander though.

 

[NoleFam]

If Tsitsipas couldn't beat a vulnerable version of Djokovic in 2021, even less so against his peak version.

2021 RG Djokovic was vulnerable? He was stiff in the early part of the match after the onslaught against Nadal plus Tsitsipas just played too well. Both guys ended up like +15 in the winners to errors count, compared to the 2015 version who was like -11 and barely hitting winners. Not exactly vulnerable in 2021.

 

[mike danny]

Worst grass field of all time (in your opinion) isn't a valid reason why he should have less. You can't invent imaginary players of the future to come in and give him more obstacles. The field is what the field is, and he's better than the field so his titles are well deserved. Of course, there's an argument he should have lost in 2019.

I'm sure you wouldn't like it if Federer won 2 more AO titles with Djokovic's last 2 Wimb draws

 

[NoleFam]

I'm sure you wouldn't like it if Federer won 2 more AO titles with Djokovic's last 2 Wimb draws

Federer already won 2 more AO titles that he most likely wouldn't have won if it weren't for Djokovic's slump + injury. So...

 

[Azure]

There is no overachieving or underachieving in sport. You win whatever you win in the circumstances you are presented.

 

[mike danny]

Tsistsipas doesn't have the backhand of Wawrinka which is the main difference. His forehand can be lethal. Why not? 2015 Djokovic played such an amazing match? He blew a 3-0 lead in the 4th and isn't hitting many penetrating forehands.

Wawrinka is a tougher matchup but Tsitsipas on clay is not an easy matchup for Djokovic by any means. He scraped through both RG matches and escaped in 2021 Rome as well. 2015 Djokovic was outplayed but he also felt immense pressure in that match.

Tsitsipas has a very good FH, but Stan's was still more lethal.

2015 Djokovic didn't play an amazing match, but you don't need to play amazing matches to beat the Next Gen. They will flop way before you will ever be in danger.

Tsitsipas being a tough match-up on clay is probably because he's 11 years younger and Djokovic in his mid 30's. Still couldn't beat him once. You could argue he doesn't get to those positions against a younger Djokovic.

 

[RS]

Who played at a higher level overall?

1. Federer Wim 04 or Federer AO 05
2. Federer AO 06 or Murray Wim 16
3. Nadal USO 13 or Nadal RG 14
4. Nadal RG 17 or Djokovic AO 13
5. Safin USO 00 or Nadal AO 09
6. Federer RG 06 or Djokovic AO 15
7. Federer RG 10 or Nadal USO 11

 

[mike danny]

Federer already won 2 more AO titles that he most likely wouldn't have won if it weren't for Djokovic's slump + injury. So...

And you already don't like it, so now you see my point of view with Djokovic at Wimb?

The fact that he could win 5 in a row too is just outrageous.

 

[RS]

Federer already won 2 more AO titles that he most likely wouldn't have won if it weren't for Djokovic's slump + injury. So...

11 AO's for Nole?

 

[NoleFam]

And you already don't like it, so now you see my point of view with Djokovic at Wimb?

The fact that he could win 5 in a row too is just outrageous.

It's not even the same situation so I don't understand what the issue is.

If he's the best player grass player in the world for 8 years, why wouldn't he deserve 5 in a row? Was Federer the best player at AO for 8 years?

 

[NoleFam]

Tsitsipas has a very good FH, but Stan's was still more lethal.

2015 Djokovic didn't play an amazing match, but you don't need to play amazing matches to beat the Next Gen. They will flop way before you will ever be in danger.

Tsitsipas being a tough match-up on clay is probably because he's 11 years younger and Djokovic in his mid 30's. Still couldn't beat him once. You could argue he doesn't get to those positions against a younger Djokovic.

Ok fair enough. Probably not much between them but ok.

I just don't think 2015 Djokovic played even a good final, and I never have felt that he did.

Or it's because clay is his best surface and where he plays his best.

 

[mike danny]

It's not even the same situation so I understand what the issue is.

If he's the best player grass player in the world for 8 years, why wouldn't he deserve 5 in a row? Was Federer the best player at AO for 8 years?

Well, if he had the 2018-2022 Wimb competition every year, then yeah, he would have been the best for an extended period.

Djokovic couldn't even manage 5 in a row at his pet slam, but him doing it at Wimb doesn't sound outrageous?

 

[mike danny]

Ok fair enough. Probably not much between them but ok.

I just don't think 2015 Djokovic played even a good final, and I never have felt that he did.

Or it's because clay is his best surface and where he plays his best.

Even if 2015 Djokovic didn't play a good final for his standards, it would still be enough to beat Tsitsipas who just doesn't have it in him. Everything lined up perfectly for him in 2021 and he still failed.

 

[RS]

Even if 2015 Djokovic didn't play a good final for his standards, it would still be enough to beat Tsitsipas who just doesn't have it in him. Everything lined up perfectly for him in 2021 and he still failed.

Who played better Djokovic RG 15 final or Fed Wim 15 final?

 

[mike danny]

Who played better Djokovic RG 15 final or Fed Wim 15 final?

Slight edge to Fed.

 

[NoleFam]

Well, if he had the 2018-2022 Wimb competition every year, then yeah, he would have been the best for an extended period.

Djokovic couldn't even manage 5 in a row at his pet slam, but him doing it at Wimb doesn't sound outrageous?

But he didn't right? So he isn't?

Is Djokovic the best grass court player in the world right now? Can you answer this for me please?

 

[abmk]

Djokovic overachieved at Wimb
Nadal overachieved at the USO
Federer overachieved at the AO

If federer overachieved at AO by 1 slam (AO 18), Djoko did by 2 IMO at the very least. (AO 20/21)
Remember fed had those losses in AO 05/AO 09 while playing actually great.

given ridiculous consistency of 15 slam semis from AO 2004-20 (only 15 loss to Seppi and 19 to Tpas before the semi) along with high level in many of them, 6 AOs for fed is fair given Djoko has 9 AOs (to "only" 8 at Wim for Fed)

 

[mike danny]

Or it's because clay is his best surface and where he plays his best.

True, but a younger Djokovic shouldn't have many issues with him.

 

[NoleFam]

True, but a younger Djokovic shouldn't have many issues with him.

Because younger Djokovic didn't play below par at times and have bad matches at his worst Slam?

 

[mike danny]

But he didn't right? So he isn't?

I said why he couldn't. He had it easy in 2006 and 2007, but after that things got way tougher so he couldn't be the best for 8 years. That's how things have been at Wimb for Djokovic.

Is Djokovic the best grass court player in the world right now? Can you answer this for me please?

Yes, he is, but that's mostly because no one else can play on grass.

 

[mike danny]

Because younger Djokovic didn't play below par at times and have bad matches at his worst Slam?

I mean, tell me when could Tsitsipas beat him (exclude 2017-2018 LOL).