Which big 3 player "overachieved" the most given their abilities?

[NoleFam]

I said why he couldn't. He had it easy in 2006 and 2007, but after that things got way tougher so he couldn't be the best for 8 years. That's how things have been at Wimb for Djokovic.


Yes, he is, but that's mostly because no one else can play on grass.

The thing you don't seem to understand is that it doesn't matter. Whether he had it easy or difficult doesn't matter. He's been better than everybody else. That's the measuring stick, not whether the field should be tougher. Grass court field levels have fluctuated before. This is not new. You are only as good as your competition. Period.

Well then you have shut the door on this, or do you want to continue this same argument for the 11th time?

 

[NoleFam]

I mean, tell me when could Tsitsipas beat him (exclude 2017-2018 LOL).

Uhhh...2009...2010...when he was the same age as Tsitsipas was in that match. Those qualify as younger Djokovic.

 

[abmk]

Federer already won 2 more AO titles that he most likely wouldn't have won if it weren't for Djokovic's slump + injury. So...

djokovic got upset by Istomin in AO 17. was fine healthwise. had just won doha beating murray in a good match.
fed also beat 4 top 10 including nadal and wawa in AO 17. Only a sourpuss can complain about AO 17 for fed.

Djokovic already has 1 more title at AO beating fed that he would be a slight underdog in if not for fed's mono in AO 08.
oh and not to forget djoko won 2 more titles at AO that he may not have if Thiem wasn't such an underperformer in finals or Fritz had the balls to finish off a hampered opponent (couldn't vs AO 21 Djoko or Wim 22 Nadal)

 

[RS]

Slight edge to Fed.

Sod RG 09 4R or Djokovic Wim 15 final?

 

[NoleFam]

djokovic got upset by Istomin in AO 17. was fine healthwise. had just won doha beating murray in a good match.
fed also beat 4 top 10 including nadal and wawa in AO 17. Only a sourpuss can complain about AO 17 for fed.

Djokovic already has 1 more title at AO beating fed that he would be a slight underdog in if not for fed's mono in AO 08.
oh and not to forget djoko won 2 more titles at AO that he may not have if Thiem wasn't such an underperformer in finals or Fritz had the balls to finish off a hampered opponent (couldn't vs AO 21 Djoko or Wim 22 Nadal)

I don't know if you haven't noticed, but I'm not complaining about 2017 Federer winning AO. He was the best player that tournament so he deserved it.

2008 mono...omg...here we go again....

Djokovic has won like 16 consecutive matches against the top 5 at the AO. Lol. If it was that easy, one of them would have done it during that run.

 

[DSH]

On a scale of one to 10 what's Djokovic RG 15 final?

I don't think it's less than a 7. Correct me if that's slander though.

7.5, maybe 8.

 

[DSH]

And you already don't like it, so now you see my point of view with Djokovic at Wimb?

The fact that he could win 5 in a row too is just outrageous.

It was disgusting; Nadal and Federer allowed Joker to grossly inflate his record there.

 

[NoleFam]

It was disgusting; Nadal and Federer allowed Joker to grossly inflate his record there.

Then they should have beaten him...lol

 

[abmk]

I don't know if you haven't noticed, but I'm not complaining about 2017 Federer winning AO. He was the best player that tournament so he deserved it.

I'm saying even if you want to bring in Djoko possibly stopping him, you can't. Fed had damn good competition at AO 2017, not just that he was the best player at that tournament.
Gaudio was also best player in RG 04, Nadal in AO 22. but those don't deserve that much praise, do they?

@mike danny 's point was about djokovic's last 2 Wimbledon draws being pretty easy thanks to weakest grass court field in open era. So you bringing in AO 17 is flat out wrong. Period.

2008 mono...omg...here we go again....

oh, reality denying, I see.
Fed has ended 2007 with a bang, demolishing the last 3 opponents at the YEC.
skipped Kooyong and played no warmup for AO in 08 because he was sick.
beat djoko in straights in USO 07.
he'd be favored over djoko at AO 08 by a little if healthy.

2Djokovic has won like 16 consecutive matches against the top 5 at the AO. Lol. If it was that easy, one of them would have done it during that run.

because field sucks in the inflation+asterisk eras for most part.
didn't say it was easy, but it was definitely doable for Thiem in AO 2020 final.

and Fritz in AO 21 just had to keep his head and execute, but failed badly at that.

 

[DSH]

Then they should have beaten him...lol

Chokedal and Chokerer!

 

[RS]

7.5, maybe 8.

Good rating.

 

[abmk]

Uhhh...2009...2010...when he was the same age as Tsitsipas was in that match. Those qualify as younger Djokovic.

pretty sure @mike danny means prime or somewhere close to prime djokovic when he says younger Djokovic. that would be RG 08, RG 11-16 djokovic.
Tpas is clear or big underdog vs any of those 7 versions of Djokovic.

 

[RS]

New list of no agreement debated matches

RG 15 F
RG 21 SF
RG 21 F
Wim 09 F
AO 22 F
USO 07 QF
USO 05 F

 

[NoleFam]

I'm saying even if you want to bring in Djoko possibly stopping him, you can't. Fed had damn good competition at AO, not just because he was the best player at that tournament.
Gaudio was also best player in RG 04, Nadal in AO 22. but those don't deserve that much praise, do they?

@mike danny 's point was about djokovic's last 2 Wimbledon draws being pretty easy thanks to weakest grass court field in open era. So you bringing in AO 17 is flat out wrong. Period.



oh, reality denying, I see.



because field sucks in the inflation+asterisk eras for most part.
didn't say it was easy, but it was definitely doable for Thiem in AO 2020 final.

and Fritz in AO 21 just had to keep his head and execute, but failed badly at that.

I'm just countering what he's saying when he insinuates Djokovic didn't deserve to win those Wimbledons because of lack of competition. The best AO player in history going through a slump + an injury allowed Federer to win in 2017 and 2018? Correct? Or do you think Federer would have beaten an in form Djokovic?

It's been 15 years and we're still talking about 2008 mono. He lost, badly. Time to move on from it.

That record against the top 5 has stretched back well before the "inflation-asterick era". It was doable except he didn't do it, so what else is there to say? Djokovic did enough to win which is what he had done time and time again before?

 

[NoleFam]

Maybe Roger and Rafa are quite lucky that Gluten allergy existed before 2011 and Novak did not hire Boris as a coach until 2013 end, imagine no health issues in late 2000s and Boris as a coach then ? Also imagine him getting vaccinated and not getting DQ'd ?

Novak might already be sitting on 25-27 now ?

Precisely. We all can play this what if game right?

 

[DSH]

Maybe Roger and Rafa are quite lucky that Gluten allergy existed before 2011 and Novak did not hire Boris as a coach until 2013 end, imagine no health issues in late 2000s and Boris as a coach then ? Also imagine him getting vaccinated and not getting DQ'd ?

Novak might already be sitting on 25-27 now ?

Imagine Nadal without his congenital injury, without his tendinitis, without his multiple physical ailments, with Carlos Moya as coach five years before, imagine how many Majors the left-hander from Mallorca would have?

 

[abmk]

I'm just countering what he's saying when he insinuates Djokovic didn't deserve to win those Wimbledons because of lack of competition. The best AO player in history going through a slump + an injury allowed Federer to win in 2017 and 2018? Correct? Or do you think Federer would have beaten an in form Djokovic?

since AO 17 had excellent competition, even with Djokovic getting upset by Istomin, your point is invalid for AO 17.
point is not about toughest possible, mythical competition. point is about whether competition was good enough.
Djokovic didn't have even decent competition in Wim 21/22.

Djokovic getting upset once at AO in 2017 when healthy isn't that big a deal. in fact, all of the big 3 should probably be getting upset more in slams at that age or older if not for inflation era.
if djoko plays like he did vs Istomin, he loses to Fed obviously. why the magical assumption of in-form Djokovic when he is ~29.5 or older?

Addendum: While djoko's best player at the AO in open era, fed's the 2nd best.
He actually won 4 AOs at his prime and it took 2 ATG performances to beat him in 05/09 in 5 sets in his 6 prime level AOs there.

It's been 15 years and we're still talking about 2008 mono. He lost, badly. Time to move on from it.

I only brought it up because you brought in AO 2017 for fed. talking about AO 2018 for fed that way is one thing, but bringing in AO 17 is outrageous.

yes, fed lost thanks to mono.

Fed ended 2007 with a bang, demolishing the last 3 opponents at the YEC.
skipped Kooyong and played no warmup for AO in 08 because he was sick.
beat djoko in straights in USO 07.
he'd be favored over djoko at AO 08 by a little if healthy.

That record against the top 5 has stretched back well before the "inflation-asterick era". It was doable except he didn't do it, so what else is there to say? Djokovic did enough to win which is what he had done time and time again before?

Djoko was just losing to non top 5 players instead (Wawa, Istomin, Chung in 14/17/18). big whoop.
djoko did just enough and thiem didn't do anything to close the deal.
AO 20 is a weak slam for djoko just like AO 18 for fed. that's the point.

 

[abmk]

Maybe Roger and Rafa are quite lucky that Gluten allergy existed before 2011 and Novak did not hire Boris as a coach until 2013 end, imagine no health issues in late 2000s and Boris as a coach then ? Also imagine him getting vaccinated and not getting DQ'd ?

Novak might already be sitting on 25-27 now ?

1. gluten intolerance, not allergy.

2. without that, Djokovic would likely be losing to fed in AO 09, AO 10 anyways instead of Roddick/tsonga. heat in 09, stamina in 10. but form not good enough to beat fed anyways.
what else? which slam does he win exactly without glutten intolerance in 09-10? it was his slump, not just gluten intolerance issue. serving issues, mentally etc. stop dumping everything on gluten intolerance.

3. maybe couple more slams with Becker earlier on than 2013 end, but he benefitted with like 5 vultured slams in inflation era. So ...
and I could make same coach argument for fed. that he'd have won more slams with better coach(es). only fed didn't vulture 5 slams in inflation era.....

 

[Deleted member 779124]

I feel like Nadal maxed/took on his chances most but not sure about the word overachieved.

 

[metsman]

New list of no agreement debated matches

RG 15 F
RG 21 SF
RG 21 F
Wim 09 F
AO 22 F
USO 07 QF
USO 05 F

Only Wim 09 and USO 07 are valid, the rest are only included because some crackpot said something ridiculous, most normal usually agree.

 

[NoleFam]

7.5, maybe 8.

An 8? Djokovic hit 41 errors in 2015. He also hit 41 errors in 2021 but he played almost 60 more points, and then hit 26 more winners. You guys are overrating the heck out of 2015 Djokovic to make Wawrinka look even better than he already did.

 

[abmk]

Roger was so arrogant in his peak that he fired his coach after his 1st slam win just like Raducanu, lucky for him he is no Raducanu so he got away with it. Went coachless in some years, maybe good coaches could have helped him vs Nadal ?

Fed got Roche afterwards in 2004 end. I was talking more so in 2010 or later anyways.

Anyway, how are you so confident that Federer will take both AO09 and AO10 even with Novak peaking from 08 without his intolerance to Gluten? Roger lost in 08 and then from 11 onwards he has lost mostly in 3-4 sets always in Aus, believe it or not Novak at his peak is a league above Roger and Rafa on plexicushion. If Roger was close to Novak there levelwise then he would have stretched Novak to 5 sets at least once. Even 11 years older Agassi could stretch Roger to 5 in USA but Roger cannot do that to Novak with a 6 year gap in Aus, yet you might say Roger is ahead of Agassi by far at USO but close to Nole in Australia? Now that is real hypocrisy.

1. fed beat djoko in AO 07.
none of the other 4 times they met, fed was remotely close to prime form. better in 7 other AOs - 04-07, 09-10,12.
04 USO agassi is arguably top 5 USO for him and heavily windy conditions made it a tossup in last 2 sets. else more likely than not, gets done in 4 sets. Need I remind you djoko actually lost when it was clearly less windy to Murray in USO 12?

2. fed's 2nd best player in open era at AO. so yeah, he is very close to djoko level wise there. in fact, I'd argue his 3 best is marginally better (04/05/07) than djoko's (08/11/13). djoko has longer extended prime period, so better prime to prime as a whole.(08,11-16,19 compared to 6 years for fed).
agassi ain't #2 USO player in the open era, not even top 5. Unlike fed who is #2 at the AO.

3. djoko's form wasn't good enough to beat prime level fed in AO 09/10 without heat in AO 09/stamina issue in AO 10.
giving djoko magical peak powers for AO 09/10 doesn't work.

Novak has beaten Triple Top 10 seeds in 5 slams in Aus (11-13 and 15-16), missed out in 2014 due to Stan or else would have done that year as well, the only other person to have won 5 same slams beating triple top 10s is Rafa at the French. Coining terms like Asterisk era won't change facts.

dude, stop with the top 10 stuff when AO 11/15/16 were all relatively weak or weak.
08 and 13 both - toughest opposition came from non top 10 opponents - Tsonga and Wawa respectively.
@ bold part: lets not forget Djoko got lucky with umpire call and stan not challenging on BP in the 5th set in AO 13. else he might have lost to Stan 2 years in a row at the AO.

Djoko has 3 easy AOs in inflation era, though he was as close to prime level in 2019 as it gets at that age.
fed has 1 tough, 1 easy AO in the inflation era.

 

[RS]

Only Wim 09 and USO 07 are valid, the rest are only included because some crackpot said something ridiculous, most normal usually agree.

Bit aggressive no?

 

[RS]

An 8? Djokovic hit 41 errors in 2015. He also hit 41 errors in 2021 but he played almost 60 more points, and then hit 26 more winners. You guys are overrating the heck out of 2015 Djokovic to make Wawrinka look even better than he already did.

What's 2021 then 8.5 to 9?

 

[metsman]

Bit aggressive no?

Be thankful I accept the debate about 09 and 07 too rather than calling them crackpots. But I have my limits.

Good job with this 15/21 stuff.

 

[abmk]

Only Wim 09 and USO 07 are valid, the rest are only included because some crackpot said something ridiculous, most normal usually agree.

 

[RS]

It's a gem.

 

[RS]

Be thankful I accept the debate about 09 and 07 too rather than calling them crackpots. But I have my limits.

Good job with this 15/21 stuff.

You have come a long way with 09 lol.

 

[DSH]

An 8? Djokovic hit 41 errors in 2015. He also hit 41 errors in 2021 but he played almost 60 more points, and then hit 26 more winners. You guys are overrating the heck out of 2015 Djokovic to make Wawrinka look even better than he already did.

But Djokovic beat a "great" version of Nadal in his fetish tournament, or so many "insiders" have said about it.

 

[RS]

I think Djokovic fans underate how well he played in some matches vs Stan which he lost he lost just like the vise versa of Fedal fans when Djokovic beat them.

 

[NoleFam]

But Djokovic beat a "great" version of Nadal in his fetish tournament, or so many "insiders" have said about it.

Lol. What version?

 

[DSH]

Lol. What version?

The one that he seemed slower than our grandmothers riding a bicycle.

 

[NoleFam]

The one that he seemed slower than our grandmothers riding a bicycle.

2022? Djokovic didn't win that one.

 

[RS]

The one that he seemed slower than our grandmothers riding a bicycle.

That Nadal out of 10?

 

[DSH]

That Nadal out of 10?

-5.

 

[RS]

-5.

I would say 3.5

 

[DSH]

I would say 3.5

You are very candid in giving him that score.

 

[RS]

Djokovic 9

 

[NoleFam]

What's 2021 then 8.5 to 9?

Do you wake up in the morning and update your Excel spreasheets with new 1-10 numbers? Lol. You really don't catch things that are subtle do you? Dude, give it a rest.

 

[RS]

You are very candid in giving it that score.

For a general top player standard? For Nadal's very own it is probably a 0

 

[NoleFam]

I would say 3.5

Well this is the rating a Nadal bot would give so this is about right.

 

[DSH]

For a general top player standard? For Nadal's very own it is probably a 0

Minus 5!

 

[RS]

Well this is the rating a Nadal bot would give so this is about right.

You told me to stop but responded so do you disagree?

 

[RS]

Minus 5!

Makes Hewitt USO 04 final blush

 

[NoleFam]

You told me to stop but responded so do you disagree?

That Nadal was a 3.5 in 2021? Lolol.

 

[RS]

That Nadal was a 3.5 in 2021? Lolol.

2015 not 2021

 

[DSH]

That Nadal was a 3.5 in 2021? Lolol.

He refers to the 2015 version, the 2021 version deserves a 5 at most.

 

[RS]

I don't think Nadal was bad in 2021 SF BTW NoleFam.

He was solid for a general top player standard.

 

[NoleFam]

He refers to the 2015 version, the 2021 version deserves a 5 at most.

Lol. Both are obviously off but about what I would expect from TTW Nadal fans.

 

[RS]

Have I underrated 2015 Nadal or something?