Which big 4 member gained the most in the last 2 seasons?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by N01E, Nov 13, 2017.

?

Who gained the most?

  1. Federer

    50.0%
  2. Nadal

    16.7%
  3. Djokovic

    16.7%
  4. Murray

    16.7%
  1. N01E

    N01E Rookie

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    Just like the title says. Djokovic got to 12 slams in '16 which meant he was "just" 2 and 5 behind Rafa and Roger respectively. During that time he finally completed the career slam and got the NCYGS which was something unique that others didn't and still don't have. (although not many were/are talking about it). Since that time Roger and Rafa got 2 slams each, which brings Djokovic back to the end of 2015, but without the momentum.

    Last year was also the time that Murray finally got to the world number 1. You'd think that would bring him closer to the big 3, however at the end of 2015 he was trailing them by 8, 12 and 15 slams. After 2017 it's 9, 13 and 16.

    Nadal accomplished pretty much nothing in 2016, however he won 2 slams in 2017, got La Decima and ended the season as the world number 1. There is only one problem... Federer.

    Rogers rivalry with Rafa was considered the biggest flaw in his legacy by many. Whenever those 2 were mentioned there always was the infamous 23-10/11 that became essential argument for VB. "How can Roger be the greatest when he's 10/11-23 against Rafa?". Things have changed now though. Why his h2h with the bull is still negative, he won their last 5 encounters (4 this year) and that turned everything upside down. Now Roger is being considered a bad match up for Rafa and if things won't change quickly all the hard work Rafa has put into becoming "the GOAT slayer" throughout the last 13 years may end up being for nothing.

    Is winning slams being 35/36 years old more helpful to one's legacy than La Decima or having the best 12 months in sports history? What do you think? Whould Roger or Rafa winning WTF change anything to you?

    (Federer will rank first on this forum obviously, but I'm still a little curious)
     
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  2. TripleATeam

    TripleATeam Hall of Fame

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    Djokovic gained 2 slams at his prime.
    Nadal gained 2 slams post-prime.
    Grandpa is way past prime and still gained 2 slams.

    Federer's gains are as big as either of the other 2, but he did it at an advanced age, which makes it more impressive.

    Despite winning 4 in a row, we can't count the back half of 2015 in Djokovic's gains, so 4 in a row doesn't really factor in here. What does count is Djokovic's Career Grand Slam. Nadal gained a French and a US Open, which gave him his first HC title in ages. Federer gained a Wimbledon and an Australian. Quite a big thing for an old man who already had 17 slams to his name and hadn't won in 5 years.
     
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  3. StANDAA

    StANDAA Semi-Pro

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    Fix this damn website ASAP, please.
     
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  4. MeatTornado

    MeatTornado Semi-Pro

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    This is a trickier question than I expected when I read the title. I thought the obvious answer was Roger, but perhaps that's just recency bias.

    Murray getting to #1 is great to have on the resume, but I think we all know it was by process of elimination. Roger and Rafa were gone and Novak had clearly declined. It was a great moment, but it doesn't change his standing as the 4th best of the Big 4. So he's the first I'd eliminate from the equation.

    I think Roger's return trumps Rafa's in importance, mainly because of the AO. If Rafa wins the AO the major count is 17-15, and likely 17-16 after Paris and potentially tied at 17 after NY if Roger doesn't use the confidence from the first 6 months to win Wimbledon. Avoiding that reality was HUGE for the history books.

    Rafa's 2017 was nearly as amazing in it's own right, but it hasn't changed how I look at his career all that much. Much like Roger this year, we all know that they are back at the top of the game mainly because of the power vacuum left by Novak. There's no way Rafa reaches the AO final, wins USO and gets to #1 if 2015-16 Djokovic is still on the loose. A 10th RG was triumphant, but it doesn't tell me all that much about Nadal's legacy that we didn't already know after winning his 9th (or 8th, or 7th...). I also don't hold the losses to Federer against him. He still has the overall H2H and has nothing to prove after how he handled peak Fed in his 20s.

    Finally, there's Novak. RG 2016 not only completed the career slam, it was his 4th in a row (something the rest of the Big 4 never accomplished). Without the Coupe des Mousquetaires in his trophy cabinet, he's not even allowed in the GOAT debate and is doomed to play 3rd wheel behind Fedal no matter what else he does in his career. That's more important than what Murray and Rafa added to their resumes, but I'm not sure it's bigger than Fed's 2017.

    I think at the time Novak's RG seemed more important because it was the last thing he "needed" to accomplish and it felt like there was no end in sight. If you told me in June 2016 that Novak would win another 4 in a row, I wouldn't have batted an eye. We expected him to challenge Roger's 17. But since Roger and Rafa have basically left him in the dust after adding another 2 each, Novak closing the gap in 2016 feels less important now with the hindsight of knowing he wouldn't catch up anyway.

    Conversely, Roger's wins in 2017 are actually more important in hindsight because after majors 18 & 19 it felt like he had put the major record out of reach for good. No one expected that Rafa would keep the pressure on with 15 & 16 immediately after, making the cushion Roger's last two provided come in handy way more than anticipated.

    TLDR; It's probably Fed, assuming Novak doesn't recover and challenge his 19 by the time he retires.
     
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  5. Red Rick

    Red Rick Legend

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    Maybe they'd get the memo if you'd posted 19 times
     
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  6. buscemi

    buscemi Professional

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    Nadal: 2 Majors, 1 YE #1, 19(?) weeks at #1
    Djokovic: 2 Majors, 45(?) weeks at #1
    Federer: 2 Majors; 4-0 against Nadal
    Murray: 1 Major, 1 YE #1, 41 weeks at #1, Olympic singles gold, 1 WTF title
    _______________________

    That's pretty close. I feel like I could make a case for any of them.
     
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  7. mike danny

    mike danny G.O.A.T.

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    The last 2 seasons have improved the legacies of all the Big 4.
     
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  8. User123

    User123 Hall of Fame

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    Well, what did I tell you? No Nadal-Thiem outside of clay. ;)
     
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  9. mike danny

    mike danny G.O.A.T.

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    I guess it wasn't meant to be. But now at least Thiem can win a match at the WTF.
     
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  10. User123

    User123 Hall of Fame

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    Thiem was probably going to beat this version of Nadal anyway. I'm happy Nadal withdrew, it was painful to watch him today.
     
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  11. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    I actually feel like it's Murray even though he's won one less major. The reason I say that is because I don't think as many people expected the success of Murray in 2016 (although I suppose Nadal and Federer are kind of in the same boat in 2017). The way he overtook #1 and swept everything post USO. I'm saying Murray because the other 3 are true ATG's, but Murray's not. I myself thought Murray might never get to #1 and win the WTF, and the first time you do something is, I find anyway, always the most special.
     
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  12. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    I actually feel like it's Murray even though he's won one less major. The reason I say that is because I don't think as many people expected the success of Murray in 2016 (although I suppose Nadal and Federer are kind of in the same boat in 2017). The way he overtook #1 and swept everything post USO. I'm saying Murray because the other 3 are true ATG's, but Murray's not. I myself thought Murray might never get to #1 and, and the first time you do something is, I find anyway, always the most special.
     
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  13. Fedeonic

    Fedeonic Hall of Fame

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    That's my thought also. Djokovic sealed his legacy at Roland Garros but then didn't do anything remotely close to that 6 months. Federer and Nadal's legacies were practically sealed and this 2017 were both icing on their cakes. But Murray's 2016 was truly his legacy defining moment, a 2nd Wimbledon, a 2nd Gold Medal, 3 more M1000s, 9 titles in a year (his personal best), first YE Masters, first ever YE#1.
     
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  14. Jackuar

    Jackuar Hall of Fame

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    Nice OP post, a good line of discussion to go about.

    I think Murray out of the contest just by the achievements. Agreeing with other posters here. My final answer would be Federer because of his age, renewed rivalry with Nadal and more importantly, the past two years ends with Fed leading in confidence-and-mental-edge-quotient, followed by Nadal. Murray, may be third and Novak is down and out mentally. To me that's a big factor which will work to Fedals favour for another year unless age deals them harder times.
     
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  15. MeatTornado

    MeatTornado Semi-Pro

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    You could say the same about Novak winning his first French Open.

    Which is more important for an individual's legacy, reaching #1 or completing the career slam?
     
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  16. Rod Laver

    Rod Laver Professional

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    I'd go with Murray or Federer. Murray lifted his credentials by reaching #1 and winning 2 big titles. While comparatively the other 3 may have achieved more I think murray boosted his legacy more.
     
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  17. Mainad

    Mainad Talk Tennis Guru

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    Actually 5 big titles (the ATP counts Masters as big titles).
     
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  18. hofshot

    hofshot New User

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    Nadal, for gaining the US Open title
     
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  19. hofshot

    hofshot New User

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    Nadal, for gaining the US Open title
     
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  20. Hitman

    Hitman Talk Tennis Guru

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    I agree, out of the four, it was Murray who took his career further, relatively to the others.
     
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  21. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Legend

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    I voted for Federer, the GOAT. But Murray follows closely behind.

    I would have thrown Novak Djokovic into the equation, had the question considered the period from 2015 Wimbledon onwards, i.e. covering the entire NCYGS period. However, since it only covers his last six months of glory, he cannot factor into this.

    Nadal? The less said the better.
     
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  22. buscemi

    buscemi Professional

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    I guess here's the way I see it. Federer entered 2016 widely considered the Open Era GOAT and will end 2017 widely considered the Open Era GOAT, so he had no real change. Nadal entered 2016 widely considered 2nd best in the Open Era or possibly 3rd behind Sampras and will end 2017 widely considered 2nd best in the Open Era. So, he either had no change in position or just passed Sampras. Djokovic entered 2016 widely considered 5th best in the Open Era and will end 2017 widely considered 4th or 5th in the Open Era, either just ahead of Borg or just behind him.

    Murray entered 2016 widely considered behind at least fifteen players in the Open Era: Just going by Open Era Majors: (1) Federer; (2) Nadal; (3) Borg; (4) Djokovic; (5) Connors; (5) Lendl; (5) Agassi; (8) McEnroe; (8) Wilander; (10) Edberg; (10) Becker; (12) Laver; (12) Newcombe; (14) Vilas; and (14) Courier. Murray also wasn't clearly ahead of any of these players in the Open Era: Hewitt, Roddick, Kafelnikov, Nastase, Kuerten, and Ashe. So, Murray was somewhere between #16 and #22 in the Open Era.

    With his results in 2016 and 2017, I think that most people would consider Murray clearly ahead of Hewitt, Roddick, Kafelnikov, Nastase, Kuerten, and Ashe. I also think many would consider him ahead of Vilas and/or Courier. So, I would say Murray gained the most in 2016-2017.
     
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  23. Paul Harman

    Paul Harman Semi-Pro

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    Is all this Murray love cos the forum is b0rked? Must be hamsters in the machine.

    I would vote Nadal as he looked pretty much done not so long ago. He has made the better comeback to form whereas the others have until recently been on a par or gotten worse, barring injuries.

    Nadal, Murray, Federer, Djokovic.
     
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