Which Federer losing streak vs Djokodal has "hurt" his GOAThood more?

Which losing streak "hurt" Fed's GOAThood more?

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clout

clout

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Federer has had two separate 6-match losing streaks against Djokodal at slams, with 4 of them coming in GS finals during both stretches.

vs Nadal:
- 2008 French Open finals: lost 1-6, 3-6, 0-6
- 2008 Wimbledon finals: lost 4-6, 4-6, 7-6, 7-6, 7-9
- 2009 Australian Open finals: lost 5-7, 6-3, 6-7, 6-3, 2-6
- 2011 French Open finals: lost 5-7, 6-7, 7-5, 1-6
- 2012 Australian Open semifinals: lost 7-6, 2-6, 6-7, 4-6
- 2014 Australian Open semifinals: lost 6-7, 3-6, 3-6

Streak lasted from June 2008-January 2017

vs Djokovic:
- 2014 Wimbledon finals: lost 7-6, 4-6, 6-7, 7-5, 4-6
- 2015 Wimbledon finals: lost 6-7, 7-6, 4-6, 3-6
- 2015 US Open finals: lost 4-6, 7-5, 4-6, 4-6
- 2016 Australian Open semifinals: lost 1-6, 2-6, 6-3, 3-6
- 2019 Wimbledon finals: lost 6-7, 6-1, 6-7, 6-4, 12-13
- 2020 Australian Open semifinals: lost 6-7, 4-6, 3-6

Streak lasted from July 2014-present

Personally, I'd say Nadal's was more impressive since Federer was still in his prime in 5 of those matches, and if Fed had won them, it would've changed the Fedal dynamic forever, hence tennis history would've been drastically altered. With Novak, Fed was already well into his 30s in all of them so most people didn't expect him to win anyways.

However, I think the losses against Novak hurt him more in the GOAT race since all Fed needed was to win just one of those matches to solidify his GOAThood, but he came up short each time.
 
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Debatable. Fedal happened largely in Federer's prime, where as Djokovic mostly beat post-prime Fed - so in that sense the Nadal losses are much more damaging. OTOH I think Federer probably wins more of the slams from the Djokovic streak without Novak (4 vs 5 IMO).
 
What about Rafa's losing streak to Federer since Fed turned 34? Does that "hurt" Rafa's "GOAThood" too, consistently losing to an old man?



7.jpg
 
Under the first scenario, Federer wins 6 straight Majors from the 2008 French-2009 Wimbledon, tying Navratilova's record, and he has a win over Nadal in a French final. So, I'd go with that one.
 
NatF said:
Debatable. Fedal happened largely in Federer's prime, where as Djokovic mostly beat post-prime Fed - so in that sense the Nadal losses are much more damaging. OTOH I think Federer probably wins more of the slams from the Djokovic streak without Novak (4 vs 5 IMO).
Click to expand...

Agreed, but Federer would have a bigger Major lead in the Nadal scenario:

-24 (Federer) - 17 (Djokovic) - 16 (Nadal) vs.​
-25 (Federer) - 20 (Nadal) - 11 (Djokovic)​
 
buscemi said:
Agreed, but Federer would have a bigger Major lead in the Nadal scenario:

-24 (Federer) - 17 (Djokovic) - 16 (Nadal) vs.​
-25 (Federer) - 20 (Nadal) - 11 (Djokovic)​
Click to expand...

Yeah overall would say Nadal, even winning one of Wim 08 or AO 09 would have been significant.
 
Djokovic could not win with any consistency against Federer until he became old. That's hardly legacy damaging.
Nadal, on the other hand, frustrated Fed into submission on several occasions during his prime, and that does hurt, especially when some of those losses were on grass and hard.

If asked to pick between Nadal and Djoker, it'd be Nadal 100% of the time.
 
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BeatlesFan said:
What about Rafa's losing streak to Federer since Fed turned 34? Does that "hurt" Rafa's "GOAThood" too, consistently losing to an old man?


7.jpg
Click to expand...
Tbh no. It was big for Fed for not really detrimental for Rafa since the Spaniard added quite a lot to his resume in this span. The damage was already done in this H2H years prior to Fed turning it around.
 
Nole. Fed could always say (as could his fans) he was only losing to Rafa because of clay, or matchup problems (lol).
NO excuses for Nole. Two righties, played on all surfaces, no clear matchup advantages and Nole still came out on top.
 
Keep in mind that if Federer beats Djokovic at one of these matches, including the 2019 Wim final that seems to come up often, he would only have a one slam lead over Nadal so he would seem to need more to cement Goathood.
 
socallefty said:
It’s disastrous for Federer’s grass GOAT aspirations to be 0-3 in Wimbledon finals against a baseliner. Pete’s fans will find it easy to laugh their heads off if someone calls Federer the grass GOAT.
Click to expand...
As a Fed supporter, I'd say the 2008 loss was worse than any of the losses against Novak. Fed was already in his mid/late 30s in all three of those matches so he came in as the obvious underdog. Losing those finals sucked major a** for sure, but it would've looked worse on Nole if the Serb had lost to a seemingly geriatric Fed tbh.

In 2008, he was 26/27 years old (same age as Thiem right now), had won 5 Wimbledon's in a row, 65 grass course matches in a row, and 2 finals in a row against Rafa. Losing that match officially ended the period where it was Fed vs everyone else - he's had to work twice as hard to win slams and be number one since 08. It also makes it worse that Fed never ended up beating Rafa at RG, while Rafa beat him on CC the way it happened.
 
clout said:
Federer has had two separate 6-match losing streaks against Djokodal at slams, with 4 of them coming in GS finals during both stretches.

vs Nadal:
- 2008 French Open finals: lost 1-6, 3-6, 0-6
- 2008 Wimbledon finals: lost 4-6, 4-6, 7-6, 7-6, 7-9
- 2009 Australian Open finals: lost 5-7, 6-3, 6-7, 6-3, 2-6
- 2011 French Open finals: lost 5-7, 6-7, 7-5, 1-6
- 2012 Australian Open semifinals: lost 7-6, 2-6, 6-7, 4-6
- 2014 Australian Open semifinals: lost 6-7, 3-6, 3-6

Streak lasted from June 2008-January 2017

vs Djokovic:
- 2014 Wimbledon finals: lost 7-6, 4-6, 6-7, 7-5, 4-6
- 2015 Wimbledon finals: lost 6-7, 7-6, 4-6, 3-6
- 2015 US Open finals: lost 4-6, 7-5, 4-6, 4-6
- 2016 Australian Open semifinals: lost 1-6, 2-6, 6-3, 3-6
- 2019 Wimbledon finals: lost 6-7, 6-1, 6-7, 6-4, 12-13
- 2020 Australian Open semifinals: lost 6-7, 4-6, 3-6

Streak lasted from July 2014-present

Personally, I'd say Nadal's was more impressive since Federer was still in his prime in 5 of those matches, and if Fed had won them, it would've changed the Fedal dynamic forever, hence tennis history would've been drastically altered. With Novak, Fed was already well into his 30s in all of them so most people didn't expect him to win anyways.

However, I think the losses against Novak hurt him more in the GOAT race since all Fed needed was to win just one of those matches to solidify his GOAThood, but he came up short each time.
Click to expand...
Where's your poll ?
 
NatF said:
Debatable. Fedal happened largely in Federer's prime, where as Djokovic mostly beat post-prime Fed - so in that sense the Nadal losses are much more damaging. OTOH I think Federer probably wins more of the slams from the Djokovic streak without Novak (4 vs 5 IMO).
Click to expand...
I think it was about the same. Fed definitely wins '08 WI, '09 AO, '11 RG, '14 AO, '14 WI, '15 WI, '15 US & '19 WI. It's a toss up with '08 RG & '16 AO; he loses in '12 AO & '20 AO though.

So yeah overall, Djokodal both took 4 given slams from Fed, 1 toss-up each, and 1 loss where he would've lost in the finals anyways.
 
I'd say Rafa. Winning some of those Novak matches would've been cherry-on-top moments for his career, but Nadal changed how we looked at Federer in his prime.

He was never supposed to win any of those matches against Djokovic, whereas Nadal dethroned Federer when Fed was still the favorite.
 
socallefty said:
It’s disastrous for Federer’s grass GOAT aspirations to be 0-3 in Wimbledon finals against a baseliner. Pete’s fans will find it easy to laugh their heads off if someone calls Federer the grass GOAT.
Click to expand...
Yes. Because we all know PETE would've done wonderfully at the ages of 33-38 on slow grass against an ATG baseliner (who may end up the overall GOAT himself).
 
Winners or Errors said:
Djokovic could not win with any consistency against Federer until he became old. That's hardly legacy damaging.
Nadal, on the other hand, frustrated Fed into submission on several occasions during his prime, and that doe hurt, especially when some of those losses were on grass and hard.

If asked to pick between Nadal and Djoker, it'd be Nadal 100% of the time.
Click to expand...

All day every day, plain as day. Nothing more or less to it than this. Bonus points for Kohli av.
 
FRV4 said:
Yeah, I agree with you. Would say Nadal losing streak more embarrassing, but Novak losing streak more detrimental.
Click to expand...
This. I wouldn't use "embarrassing" or "detrimental" since Nadal had to fight like a madman for some of those wins and Djokovic's wins over Fed didn't somehow detract from his resume. But overall it's true that the Djokovic losses were more important since they were all "last-chance" matches and allowed Djokovic to make up massive ground in the Slam race, while the Nadal losses were clearly more impressive for Nadal since Fedr was in his prime for most of them.
 
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BeatlesFan said:
What about Rafa's losing streak to Federer since Fed turned 34? Does that "hurt" Rafa's "GOAThood" too, consistently losing to an old man?



7.jpg
Click to expand...
Well it definitely balances things out a bit. The thing about Nadal though is his main domain is the FO, and he's been able to stabilize there, despite his constant losing to Fed and Djoker off clay recently. But I think it's fair to say that in the twilight of their careers, Fed has been the better all around player. That is, if Nadal is even close to being done. If not, that makes Fed's ability to beat him even more impressive, though you have to account for the fact that speed used to be such a big part of Nadal's game. That's the first thing to go.
 
aldeayeah said:
I mean the OP is talking slams and they're 2-1 in slams since 2017, smaller tournament results are relevant but not super important.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I was really surprised rewatching the 2019 Wimbledon match between Fed and Nadal where the commentators point out that Fed was at the time 3-10 vs Nadal in slams. You would've thought it would've been closer with how consistently Fed had been beating Nadal recently (besides FO of course). But is clay legitimate at the end of the day?
 
King No1e said:
This. I wouldn't use "embarrassing" or "detrimental" since Nadal had to fight like a madman for some of those wins and Djokovic's wins over Fed didn't somehow detract from his resume. But overall it's true that the Djokovic losses were more important since they were all "last-chance" matches and allowed Djokovic to make up massive ground in the Slam race, while the Nadal losses were clearly more impressive for Nadal since Fedr was in his prime for most of them.
Click to expand...
4-10 isn't something you brag to your friends about. It's the kind of thing you deny, you qualify, you invalidate. Wait...
 
Winners or Errors said:
Djokovic could not win with any consistency against Federer until he became old. That's hardly legacy damaging.
Nadal, on the other hand, frustrated Fed into submission on several occasions during his prime, and that doe hurt, especially when some of those losses were on grass and hard.

If asked to pick between Nadal and Djoker, it'd be Nadal 100% of the time.
Click to expand...
This.

/thread
 
Losses to Djokovic were worse and decisive for the slam race.Although those losses to Nadal happened in Fed's prime, he still had more time to add to his tally, so those are not as important.Not to mention the way Fed lost to Djokovic with those 40-15s.
 
clout said:
As a Fed supporter, I'd say the 2008 loss was worse than any of the losses against Novak. Fed was already in his mid/late 30s in all three of those matches so he came in as the obvious underdog. Losing those finals sucked major a** for sure, but it would've looked worse on Nole if the Serb had lost to a seemingly geriatric Fed tbh.

In 2008, he was 26/27 years old (same age as Thiem right now), had won 5 Wimbledon's in a row, 65 grass course matches in a row, and 2 finals in a row against Rafa. Losing that match officially ended the period where it was Fed vs everyone else - he's had to work twice as hard to win slams and be number one since 08. It also makes it worse that Fed never ended up beating Rafa at RG, while Rafa beat him on CC the way it happened.
Click to expand...

additionally, the "true bounce" grass + poly killed the S&V on grass, don't think Sampras would be highly successful in W these days with a pure S&V
 
Fed should have retired in 2012 after Wimbledon.

he would have only been Nadal’s pigeon instead of Djokodal’s.

I do feel for him though, on track for GOAThood and now suddenly he’s trying to salvage his career for 4th place.

maybe he’s hoping to meet injured blubbering Cilic in the final for one last fluke.
 
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BackhandDTL said:
Fed should have retired in 2012 after Wimbledon.

he would have only been Nadal’s pigeon instead of Djokodal’s.

I do feel for him though, on track for GOAThood and now suddenly he’s trying to salvage his career for third place.
Click to expand...

oh look clueless bitterboy is bitter at 6-0 on non-clay surfaces from 2015 onwards including 2-0 in slams
:-D :-D

don't worry, fed is and will remain better than nadalboy on :
slow HC
fast HC
indoors
grass
 
The Nadal 08-09 losses were the worst of his career, along with Safin and Del Potro.

Djokovic got lucky to feast on grandpa post 2014.
 
clout said:
Federer has had two separate 6-match losing streaks against Djokodal at slams, with 4 of them coming in GS finals during both stretches.

vs Nadal:
- 2008 French Open finals: lost 1-6, 3-6, 0-6
- 2008 Wimbledon finals: lost 4-6, 4-6, 7-6, 7-6, 7-9
- 2009 Australian Open finals: lost 5-7, 6-3, 6-7, 6-3, 2-6
- 2011 French Open finals: lost 5-7, 6-7, 7-5, 1-6
- 2012 Australian Open semifinals: lost 7-6, 2-6, 6-7, 4-6
- 2014 Australian Open semifinals: lost 6-7, 3-6, 3-6

Streak lasted from June 2008-January 2017

vs Djokovic:
- 2014 Wimbledon finals: lost 7-6, 4-6, 6-7, 7-5, 4-6
- 2015 Wimbledon finals: lost 6-7, 7-6, 4-6, 3-6
- 2015 US Open finals: lost 4-6, 7-5, 4-6, 4-6
- 2016 Australian Open semifinals: lost 1-6, 2-6, 6-3, 3-6
- 2019 Wimbledon finals: lost 6-7, 6-1, 6-7, 6-4, 12-13
- 2020 Australian Open semifinals: lost 6-7, 4-6, 3-6

Streak lasted from July 2014-present

Personally, I'd say Nadal's was more impressive since Federer was still in his prime in 5 of those matches, and if Fed had won them, it would've changed the Fedal dynamic forever, hence tennis history would've been drastically altered. With Novak, Fed was already well into his 30s in all of them so most people didn't expect him to win anyways.

However, I think the losses against Novak hurt him more in the GOAT race since all Fed needed was to win just one of those matches to solidify his GOAThood, but he came up short each time.
Click to expand...
Which is your favorite Federer’s loss?
 
clout said:
Federer has had two separate 6-match losing streaks against Djokodal at slams, with 4 of them coming in GS finals during both stretches.

vs Nadal:
- 2008 French Open finals: lost 1-6, 3-6, 0-6
- 2008 Wimbledon finals: lost 4-6, 4-6, 7-6, 7-6, 7-9
- 2009 Australian Open finals: lost 5-7, 6-3, 6-7, 6-3, 2-6
- 2011 French Open finals: lost 5-7, 6-7, 7-5, 1-6
- 2012 Australian Open semifinals: lost 7-6, 2-6, 6-7, 4-6
- 2014 Australian Open semifinals: lost 6-7, 3-6, 3-6

Streak lasted from June 2008-January 2017

vs Djokovic:
- 2014 Wimbledon finals: lost 7-6, 4-6, 6-7, 7-5, 4-6
- 2015 Wimbledon finals: lost 6-7, 7-6, 4-6, 3-6
- 2015 US Open finals: lost 4-6, 7-5, 4-6, 4-6
- 2016 Australian Open semifinals: lost 1-6, 2-6, 6-3, 3-6
- 2019 Wimbledon finals: lost 6-7, 6-1, 6-7, 6-4, 12-13
- 2020 Australian Open semifinals: lost 6-7, 4-6, 3-6

Streak lasted from July 2014-present

Personally, I'd say Nadal's was more impressive since Federer was still in his prime in 5 of those matches, and if Fed had won them, it would've changed the Fedal dynamic forever, hence tennis history would've been drastically altered. With Novak, Fed was already well into his 30s in all of them so most people didn't expect him to win anyways.

However, I think the losses against Novak hurt him more in the GOAT race since all Fed needed was to win just one of those matches to solidify his GOAThood, but he came up short each time.
Click to expand...


You have a point re. the streak to Nadal during peak-type years, or, peak-late/peak.

But did Federer ever have a GOAThood to lose in the first place? Maybe he looked like GOAT in July 2017 at the apex of his great resurgence and the nadir of Novak's crises (or like he would be GOAT - there was (is) always the problem of Laver).
 
The ones versus Nadal when he was in or near his prime.
 
The first one hurts him, certainly through like the first 4. The second doesn’t hurt his legacy at all. The fact that he made all those matches and the fact that all but one of them went 4 or 5 sets is testament to his brilliance, and almost if anything adds to the legacy.

If he won any of them, particularly the finals, you could seriously get the fvck out of here trying to compare Djokovic to him as an all time great.
 
40-15 was bad. So were the other two Wimbleys. But let's be honest here he wasn't expected to win any of those.

For me AO09 loss is a taint few taints can ever compare to. Such prolonged mental midgetry. Gods.
So many breakpoints damnit.
RG08 being such an outworldly bad performance doesn't help either.
AO 12&14 are almost irrelevant.

Had be won 40-15 it wouldn't have proved much that his incredible performance in that tourney already didn't. It was about his longevity and extraordinary talent.
20 or 21 don't mean much difference to the people who know context.
 
Stannis Baratheon said:
40-15 was bad. So were the other two Wimbleys. But let's be honest here he wasn't expected to win any of those.

For me AO09 loss is a taint few taints can ever compare to. Such prolonged mental midgetry. Gods.
So many breakpoints damnit.
RG08 being such an outworldly bad performance doesn't help either.
AO 12&14 are almost irrelevant.

Had be won 40-15 it wouldn't have proved much that his incredible performance in that tourney already didn't. It was about his longevity and extraordinary talent.
20 or 21 don't mean much difference to the people who know context.
Click to expand...
I had Fed as a big favorite in 2014 and 2015...
 
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