Which gap is larger: Nadal over Nole on clay or Nole over Nadal on HC?

[Nadalgaenger]

Nadal’s H2H on clay vs. Nole is 17-7 but he’s obviously done his biggest damage where it counted most at RG.
Nole’s H2H on HC against Rafa is 20-7 but he’s had two tough losses in USO finals (2010 and 2013). Nadal also has more USO titles than the guy most of us consider the greatest HC player ever.

So who has the edge here?

I’d give a slight edge to Rafa. Competing in an era against the two greatest HC players of all time and as a guy that nobody predicted would ever win anything of significance off of clay, he’s managed 5 HC slams. He has a winning record against Fed at the AO and against Nole at the USO. That’s pretty impressive.
Nole’s one of the top 10 clay players of all time (maybe even top 5 if you just look at winning percentages), but he’s been blocked by Nadal (as well as Thiem and Wawrinka). I tend to overlook 2015 as a bit of a fluke, as everyone under the sun was beating Nadal on clay that year. 2013 was obviously his big chance to score a big win against the bull, but he just came up short in a 9-7 fifth set. However, let’s not forget how close Rafa was to Nole at the 2012 AO. You can basically call that a wash.

 

[MichaelNadal]

You said it. The gap may be "bigger" between Djokovic and Rafa on clay, which is why Nadal is epic af for still winning 5 HC slams

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Perhaps another way to look at it:

Djokovic’s advantage at the AO MAY be as large as Rafa’s over Nole at the RG. It may even be bigger.

However, Djokovic has No obvious advantage at the USO.

 

[Deleted member 762343]

Nadal beat Djokovic twice at USO so that’s a no brainer. Even if you only count AO, it doesn’t change anything : 6-1 > 2-0. You could argue that Djokovic didn’t have the chance to face Nadal more often at AO but their first match here was enough for Nadal to make it extremely close, Djokovic needed five attempts to do the same at RG.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Nadal beat Djokovic twice at USO so that’s a no brainer. Even if you only count AO, it doesn’t change anything : 6-1 > 2-0. You could argue that Djokovic didn’t have the chance to face Nadal more often at AO but their first match here was enough for Nadal to make it extremely close, Djokovic needed five attempts to do the same at RG.

And it was a year where Rafa was clearly not winning. Nadal never had the luxury of facing Djokovic much when Djokovic was subpar.

 

[GabeT]

Nadal’s record in clay is greater than Novak’s in HC. But Novak’s dominance over Nadal in HC is greater than Nadal’s dominance over Novak in clay. Nadal hasn‘t so much as won a set in HC against Novak since 2013, there‘s nothing equivalent in clay.

 

[King No1e]

Djokovic's dominance at AO and Nadal's at RG are comparable, but on most hard courts Nadal is much more competitive with Djokovic. Meanwhile there's no clay event that Nadal doesn't blow Djokovic out of the water.
Clay it is. Nadal on clay is so insanely dominant that certain people have to pretend it's not a real surface

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Djokovic's dominance at AO and Nadal's at RG are comparable, but on most hard courts Nadal is much more competitive with Djokovic. Meanwhile there's no clay event that Nadal doesn't blow Djokovic out of the water.
Clay it is. Nadal on clay is so insanely dominant that certain people have to pretend it's not a real surface

I agree with giving edge to Nadal but Im not in agreement about above. Nole has been the only guy over the years to consistently cause trouble for King of Clay. 7 wins is pretty remarkable given how dominant Rafa has been against field.

 

[King No1e]

I agree with giving edge to Nadal but Im not in agreement about above. Nole has been the only guy over the years to consistently cause trouble for King of Clay. 7 wins is pretty remarkable given how dominant Rafa has been against field.

I don't mean "blow Djokovic out of the water" in terms of matchup. I mean in terms of titles and overall achievements. Nadal leads Djokovic everywhere on clay. Meanwhile they're about even in the summer HC tournaments.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

I don't mean "blow Djokovic out of the water" in terms of matchup. I mean in terms of titles and overall achievements. Nadal leads Djokovic everywhere on clay. Meanwhile they're about even in the summer HC tournaments.

Oh I agree with that.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

One factor that complicates picture:
Djokovic is easily top 10 all time as a clay courier. Can we say the same for Rafa on HC? Almost certainly not. But he’s great on most important HC.

 

[King No1e]

One factor that complicates picture:
Djokovic is easily top 10 all time as a clay courier. Can we say the same for Rafa?

Yes. 5 Slams on HC, OG, and a slew of M1000's on the surface is hard to argue with.

 

[Rosstour]

Pre-2014: Raf
Post-2014: *****

 

[RelentlessAttack]

Yeah you’ve got to split the eras
First half, Nadal over Nole, second half, Nole over Nadal

 

[kevaninho]

I actually think its very close, although I have went with Djokovic on HC has a bigger gap.
Only using receny bias its probably true.
But, im one of the few, who perhaps believe, that Nadal is capable on a HC of beating Djokovic.
Whether anyone agrees or not, I think the 2nd set in their last match could've went to Nadal, which then possibly changes the match.
Yes, Djokovic perhaps dropped his level a bit in the 2nd set, but Nadal started playing better also, so its not like he was hammered 6-2, 6-2.

 

[Aneto]

One factor that complicates picture:
Djokovic is easily top 10 all time as a clay courier. Can we say the same for Rafa?

Why? Djoko has one slam on clay court . Rafa has 5 slams on hard court.

 

[DjokoGOAT]

Djokovic - Nadal on HCs. By far.

clay h2h peak for peak is 7-8 since 2011. Novak has beat Nadal at Monte Carlo, Rome, Madrid, Roland Garros.

Meanwhile Nadal has failed to beat Djokovic at AO, Miami, Cincinnati, Shanghai and Paris.

 

[PerilousPear]

Man, even Djokovic fans don't have arguments here. That vaccine situation really did wonders for his image

 

[Deleted member 770948]

The only bagel of their rivalry occurred in 2019, when Rafa beat Djok 60 46 61 at Rome.
And Rafa beat Djok in straight sets on clay in 2017 and 2018.

 

[Karma Tennis]

Why? Djoko has one slam on clay court . Rafa has 5 slams on hard court.

Exactly. No Contest.

Imho, it's much harder to be successful playing on a Clay Court than it is playing on a Hard Court.

The Greatest players the sport has ever seen, Rosewall, Laver, Borg, Nadal all found great success at Roland Garros.

Sampras, Federer and Djokovic will always have a hole in their resume. Their inability to win multiple Roland Garros titles. (Although Djokovic still has a chance to improve his results there if he gets the opportunity and is prepared to be vaccinated.)

Hard Court tennis, simply by virtue of a court surface that plays true and consistent, levels the playing field.

 

[DjokoGOAT]

Man, even Djokovic fans don't have arguments here. That vaccine situation really did wonders for his image

Novak completely owns Rafa on hcs while peak for peak on clay overall nadal only leads 8-7

 

[Karma Tennis]

Novak completely owns Rafa on hcs while peak for peak on clay overall nadal only leads 8-7

LOL. Roland Garros Titles .... Rafa 12 (including 2 wins over Novak), Novak 1 (and that wasn't against Rafa!)

All the other Clay Tournaments are simply lead ups to the Big One that counts.

No Contest.

 

[PerilousPear]

Novak completely owns Rafa on hcs while peak for peak on clay overall nadal only leads 8-7

Their true peaks never overlapped. When one was at his peak, the other was out of form or injured.
If we adjust the h2h according to that, Nadal leads 26-0. Every time Nadal beat Djokovic, he beat peak Djokovic. Every time Djokovic beat Nadal. Rafa had a terrible injury, so it shouldn't count, no?

Nadal is the GOAT, sorry.

 

[StrongRule]

Djokovic - Nadal on HCs. By far.

clay h2h peak for peak is 7-8 since 2011. Novak has beat Nadal at Monte Carlo, Rome, Madrid, Roland Garros.

Meanwhile Nadal has failed to beat Djokovic at AO, Miami, Cincinnati, Shanghai and Paris.

2014-2016 was peak Nadal?

Now, 2008-2009 Djokovic was indeed close to his prime on clay.

 

[OldschoolKIaus]

Connors in 4

 

[NoleFam]

Is this based on head to head or achievements? Achievements goes to Rafa but head to head goes to Novak. His dominance on hardcourt over him is greater statiscally (he has a 1.98 games dominance compared to Nadal's 1.31 on clay)

 

[octogon]

One factor that complicates picture:
Djokovic is easily top 10 all time as a clay courier. Can we say the same for Rafa?

Umm...yeah. Pretty easily. Nadal is clearly a top 10 hardcourt player in the Open Era.

And I don't think Djokovic is "easily" a top 10 all time clay court player. I suppose you could make a case for him (mainly for providing some challenge to Nadal), but you could make a case for putting several guys ahead of him in a top 10.

 

[Nole_King]

No question in my mind that Nadal is ahead of anyone on clay than he is behind anyone on any other surface.

 

[MeatTornado]

The only bagel of their rivalry occurred in 2019, when Rafa beat Djok 60 46 61 at Rome.
And Rafa beat Djok in straight sets on clay in 2017 and 2018.

And that 1 set was still x infinity more sets won than Rafa has on hard courts in the last 7 years.

 

[Lew II]

And that 1 set was still x infinity more sets won than Rafa has on hard courts in the last 7 years.

TFW Bjorn Fratangelo did something that GOATdal couldn't do

 

[DjokoGOAT]

Their true peaks never overlapped. When one was at his peak, the other was out of form or injured.
If we adjust the h2h according to that, Nadal leads 26-0. Every time Nadal beat Djokovic, he beat peak Djokovic. Every time Djokovic beat Nadal. Rafa had a terrible injury, so it shouldn't count, no?

Nadal is the GOAT, sorry.

Since 2011 when both were peak Djokovic is 7-8 on clay but leads 13-2 on HCs. Nole clearly dominated more.

Nadal is GOAT on clay. Djokovic is GOAT of tennis.

 

[octogon]

Since 2011 when both were peak Djokovic is 7-8 on clay but leads 13-2 on HCs. Nole clearly dominated more.

Nadal is GOAT on clay. Djokovic is GOAT of tennis.

"Joined Wednesday"

LOL!

 

[MichaelNadal]

Djokovic's dominance at AO and Nadal's at RG are comparable, but on most hard courts Nadal is much more competitive with Djokovic. Meanwhile there's no clay event that Nadal doesn't blow Djokovic out of the water.
Clay it is. Nadal on clay is so insanely dominant that certain people have to pretend it's not a real surface

Killed it

 

[tudwell]

A breakdown:

Nadal over Djokovic on clay:
17-7 overall
6-1 in slams
7-1 in all best-of-five (Davis Cup 1-0)
10-6 in Masters

Djokovic over Nadal on hard court:
20-7 overall
3-2 in slams
3-2 at WTF
0-1 at Olympics
10-2 in Masters
4-0 elsewhere

Djokovic is actually far less dominant than Nadal at the biggest tourneys. 3-2 in slams, 6-5 in all tournaments greater than Masters (7-5 if we lump in the ATP Cup). But he's far more dominant in Masters (only 2 losses to Nadal in his career!) and has a smattering of smaller events he dominates as well. Also, people tout Djokovic's dominance since 2013 – he's gone 9-0 without the loss of a set – but Nadal as well went 9-0 to start their clay rivalry, losing just 3 sets (and none at RG). Not as cut-and-dry in Djokovic's favor as I think some people are making it.

 

[octogon]

A breakdown:

Nadal over Djokovic on clay:
17-7 overall
6-1 in slams
7-1 in all best-of-five (Davis Cup 1-0)
10-6 in Masters

Djokovic over Nadal on hard court:
20-7 overall
3-2 in slams
3-2 at WTF
0-1 at Olympics
10-2 in Masters
4-0 elsewhere

Djokovic is actually far less dominant than Nadal at the biggest tourneys. 3-2 in slams, 6-5 in all tournaments greater than Masters (7-5 if we lump in the ATP Cup). But he's far more dominant in Masters (only 2 losses to Nadal in his career!) and has a smattering of smaller events he dominates as well. Also, people tout Djokovic's dominance since 2013 – he's gone 9-0 without the loss of a set – but Nadal as well went 9-0 to start their clay rivalry, losing just 3 sets (and none at RG). Not as cut-and-dry in Djokovic's favor as I think some people are making it.

It's not cut and dry in Djokovic's favor at all. Novak is getting trounced in the poll 75% (Nadal) to 25% ( Djokovic).

Djokovic just seems to have attracted some new and slightly insane fans since he won the last Australian Open who will try to frame him as the "best" in every single situation. They are a loud minority, which is why their voices seem more than they actually are.

 

[tudwell]

It's not cut and dry in Djokovic's favor at all. Novak is getting trounced in the poll 75% (Nadal) to 25% ( Djokovic).

Djokovic just a seems to have attracted a some new and slightly insane fans since he won the last Australian Open who will try to frame him as the "best" in every single situation. They are a loud minority, which is why their voices seen more than they actually are.

Ah I didn't look at the results. Seemed like the posts in the thread skewed more towards Djokovic, and not just loud boring trolls (@GabeT went with Novak and even Nadal fan @kevaninho seemed to be leaning in Novak's direction).

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Djokovic vs Nadal on hardcourt is an alternative Liverpool vs Coventry.

Clay gap is closer.

 

[DjokoGOAT]

A breakdown:

Nadal over Djokovic on clay:
17-7 overall
6-1 in slams
7-1 in all best-of-five (Davis Cup 1-0)
10-6 in Masters

Djokovic over Nadal on hard court:
20-7 overall
3-2 in slams
3-2 at WTF
0-1 at Olympics
10-2 in Masters
4-0 elsewhere

Djokovic is actually far less dominant than Nadal at the biggest tourneys. 3-2 in slams, 6-5 in all tournaments greater than Masters (7-5 if we lump in the ATP Cup). But he's far more dominant in Masters (only 2 losses to Nadal in his career!) and has a smattering of smaller events he dominates as well. Also, people tout Djokovic's dominance since 2013 – he's gone 9-0 without the loss of a set – but Nadal as well went 9-0 to start their clay rivalry, losing just 3 sets (and none at RG). Not as cut-and-dry in Djokovic's favor as I think some people are making it.

Since both were peak for peak (2011) novak is 13-2 on hc’s And only losing 7-8 on clay. Rafa comes a little closer if we include wins over baby gluten Nole.

 

[tudwell]

Since both were peak for peak (2011) novak is 13-2 on hc’s And only losing 7-8 on clay. Rafa comes a little closer if we include wins over baby gluten Nole.

Well until Nadal hit a massive slump in 2015 he was 14-4 against Djokovic on clay, with no losses in majors. The two are not even a year removed in age and you're excluding everything before Djokovic was 24(!), despite him being a top player contending for majors on all surfaces for the vast majority of that time. That's a little ridiculous. Nadal utterly dominated clay early on (pre-2011 especially, but even up through 2014). Djokovic has utterly dominated hard court since fall 2013. They were otherwise competitive with one another, but I think Nadal got the bigger scalps (2 slams + Olympics). It's pretty even and I could see a person going either way, but Nole is hardly head-and-shoulders above Nadal here.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Djokovic's dominance at AO and Nadal's at RG are comparable

Nadal has 4 more titles than Novak Djokovic at those respective slams, has only lost twice at RG throughout his whole career, and was very rarely even taken to 5 sets in matches he won.

His dominance is far greater than that of Novak Djokovic at his pet slam (and far greater than anyone else at whatever their pet slam is).

 

[NoleFam]

Well until Nadal hit a massive slump in 2015 he was 14-4 against Djokovic on clay, with no losses in majors. The two are not even a year removed in age and you're excluding everything before Djokovic was 24(!), despite him being a top player contending for majors on all surfaces for the vast majority of that time. That's a little ridiculous. Nadal utterly dominated clay early on (pre-2011 especially, but even up through 2014). Djokovic has utterly dominated hard court since fall 2013. They were otherwise competitive with one another, but I think Nadal got the bigger scalps (2 slams + Olympics). It's pretty even and I could see a person going either way, but Nole is hardly head-and-shoulders above Nadal here.

All that is true but Djokovic has beaten Nadal in all the big clay tournaments. Some can excuse away 2015 RG but can't excuse away 2011 Rome, 2011 Madrid and 2013 Monte Carlo when Nadal was in fine form. On the flip side, Nadal has never beaten Djokovic in AO, Miami, Cincy or Paris and hasn't beaten him at IW since 2007, going 0-3 since then. They never met at Shanghai. He also has more chances to beat Djokovic with there being 9 big tournaments on hard court + the Olympics compared to 4 for clay. For that reason and the dominant run he went on over Nadal, the head to head has to go to Djokovic.

 

[tudwell]

All that is true but Djokovic has beaten Nadal in all the big clay tournaments. Some can excuse away 2015 RG but can't excuse away 2011 Rome, 2011 Madrid and 2013 Monte Carlo when Nadal was in fine form. On the flip side, Nadal has never beaten Djokovic in AO, Miami, Cincy or Paris and hasn't beaten him at IW since 2007, going 0-3 since then. They never met at Shanghai. He also has more chances to beat Djokovic with there being 9 big tournaments on hard court + the Olympics compared to 4 for clay. For that reason and the dominant run he went on over Nadal, the head to head has to go to Djokovic.

All fine points. I don't have any issues with anyone picking Djokovic in this discussion. I don't think either one has a knock-down case – which frankly is incredible to begin with given how dominant Nadal is on clay overall.

 

[JoshuaPim]

Djokovic has won that H2H, I mean we all know that.

 

[NoleFam]

All fine points. I don't have any issues with anyone picking Djokovic in this discussion. I don't think either one has a knock-down case – which frankly is incredible to begin with given how dominant Nadal is on clay overall.

I think Nadal clearly gets it on accomplishments though. He has 4 USOs plus 1 AO to go with his Masters and Olympic title.

 

[lud]

12 vs 1
or
11 vs 5

I say 11 vs 5 is more dominant with 3-2 h2h than 12 vs 1 with 6 vs 1 h2h. Easy choice.

 

[DjokoGOAT]

12 vs 1
or
11 vs 5

I say 11 vs 5 is more dominant with 3-2 h2h than 12 vs 1 with 6 vs 1 h2h. Easy choice.

that’s only at slams and 3-1 to Djokovic peak for peak on HCs 3-1 to Nadal on clay slams h2h since 2011 so dead even, with Nole dominating big time across the whole tour.

Overall tour Djokovic has beat nadal at every big event on the tour so he owns him.

 

[lud]

that’s only at slams and 3-1 to Djokovic peak for peak on HCs 3-1 to Nadal on clay h2h since 2011.

Overall tour Djokovic has beat nadal at every big event on the tour so he owns him.

Tennis has played before 2011 as well.Even after 2011 it's 3-1 on HC and 3-1 on Clay. Even.

 

[beard]

Fact that we even talk this subject tell how good Novak is on hard, and specially on clay... Hey, it's clay goat we are comparing him with...

Slight edge to Nadal...

 

[DjokoGOAT]

Tennis has played before 2011 as well.Even after 2011 it's 3-1 on HC and 3-1 on Clay. Even.

Peak for peak even at slams and landslide to Djokovic outside of it.

 

[lud]

Peak for peak even at slams and landslide to Djokovic outside of it.

Ok. Djokovic is more dominant on HC 11 slams/ 2 different GS than Nadal on clay 12 slams/1 GS. Ok.