Which is 'better': a walkover or a mid-match retirement?

Which would you rather happened?

  • W/O

    Votes: 24 80.0%
  • RET.

    Votes: 6 20.0%

  • Total voters
    30

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
If one feels unwell before a match to the effect that there is a legitimate a reason to think that they may possibly be unable to complete it, is it better to give a walkover or rather go on court and play as much as they can before retiring?
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Djokovic's recent retirement caused quite a bit of idle talk on the forums, as did Federer's WTF F walkover back then when it happened. So, I thought to ask, since opinions are divided, and there doesn't seem to be a clear answer. (If similar threads have been opened before, my apologies. I've not been here for long so I might be just repeating the old tracks.)

The primary argument for mid-match retirements, as I get it, is, one, the player may still count on being able to finish the match (shouldn't give up, as a professional), and two, that way s/he gives the fans and the opponent at least some of the match and some fight and lets the opponent enjoy an actual victory, even if not complete, rather than handing them the win matter-of-factly and robbing fans of partial enjoyment at least. It may feel like a cop out to some.

The primary argument for walkover, as I think of it, is that, one, as a professional you should not put your health in danger if it some condition or injury that could very well worsen during your attempts to play and actually force you to miss more tournaments later, and two, an incomplete match may well be actually less enjoyable than a cancelled one if the player is unable to show good level and ends up playing awful and getting owned because of it, which is embarassing for the loser, the winner [either you're destroying an injured opponent, and that doesn't feel nice, or there is actually some fight if the opponent isn't that impaired, and then it abruptly stops on retirement when you felt you were on course to a victory, and that doesn't feel like a proper ending] and the viewers if they feel empathy. (I remember watching that V.Williams-Petkovic ToC match where Petkovic played despite getting injured and got promptly double-bagelled and feeling sorry and embarrassed for her.)

It must be obvious by now that I'm in favour of walkover, but that's not simply because my fave thinks the same. :)

I've no inclination to diss Novak, since given the relatively mild condition (as opposed to a body injury), it is understandable if he genuinely thought he might be able to play through it and finish the match. I think it's somewhat careless, though, and it was silly when Lopez heard the news and looked quite surprised. Personally, I would have preferred Djokovic to give a walkover citing eye infection and say the standard apology (then he would be a perfect gentleman - who (other than the ubiquitous haters, to hell with them) could have faulted him? it's not his fault he was unlucky to develop an eyesore while staying in Dubai), rather than play a mediocre set (despite a few great points here and there) and then have to run away to nurse the sore eye and put on sunglasses. It's a minor match, anyway, only those with acid grudges make much of it.
And while we are at it, I totally back up Fed's 2014 walkover, because it would have been just embarrassing if he went out there to get double-bagelled like Petkovic. What is the purpose? It wouldn't be good tennis worthy of a final. Not much to enjoy except for those who would like to see Federer owned like that, i.e. haters, and there is no reason to give them what they want.

In the end, if the player has a good reason to doubt beforehand whether s/he would be able to complete the match, I'd support giving a walkover. Obviously, this has no relevance to the case of an injury happening during the match itself.
 
This shouldn't be a question, honestly.

When you're really injured, you can't even step on court, simple as this. Once you step on court, win a couple (or three) games in a set and then simply forfeit, it becomes ridiculous. It's a total lack of respect to your opponent as it takes the credit away from the victory 'he only lost because he was injured', and it's a disrespect to the fans and their money. In cases of w/o, sometimes (most of them) the tournament organizers offers tickets for the very same stage in the following year. In mid-match withdraws you get absolutely nothing.

The absolute only reason to withdrawn a match before its completion is an injury obtained during the match, like a muscular injury or a twisted ankle/wrist (like Monaco vs Haase in 2012, for example), not because an eyelid fell on your eye. Once you step on court, you can't use your own health as an excuse.
 
This shouldn't be a question, honestly.

When you're really injured, you can't even step on court, simple as this. Once you step on court, win a couple (or three) games in a set and then simply forfeit, it becomes ridiculous. It's a total lack of respect to your opponent as it takes the credit away from the victory 'he only lost because he was injured', and it's a disrespect to the fans and their money. In cases of w/o, sometimes (most of them) the tournament organizers offers tickets for the very same stage in the following year. In mid-match withdraws you get absolutely nothing.

The absolute only reason to withdrawn a match before its completion is an injury obtained during the match, like a muscular injury or a twisted ankle/wrist (like Monaco vs Haase in 2012, for example), not because an eyelid fell on your eye. Once you step on court, you can't use your own health as an excuse.
Boy you're on a hate filled mission aren't you
 
They both have the same end result after you ignore the extraneous details, so one is no better or worse than the other despite what some Fed/Djoker fanboys might tell you.
 
Really...what a ridiculous question.

One is neither better or worse than the other, whilst obviously having same outcome they are 2 different occurances & the circumstances that lead to each an be vastly different.
 
Both are disgusting. They are paid millions. Get on the court , unless you cannot hold a racket in your hand.

If you are the COO or president of a company , you don't get excused for an eye infection for a board meeting. You don't aggravate eye infection by playing.

Similarly walkover because of fatigue or headache , Tomic style , is crazy
 
The fact that you mention Djokovic's mid-match retirement and Federer pulling out before the match means people are obviously going to vote for Walkover, because there's more Fed fans than anyone else.

Personally I'd say better to try and fail than not to try. But it's kind of not really fair to say one's worse. Sometimes it has to be done, maybe you don't feel bad before a match and then playing makes it feel a lot worse so you can't carry on. It's a shame that it ends that way but at least you gave it a go, at least the fans got to see a bit of tennis etc. Maybe you just feel really bad and you know there's no way you'd be able to play, no point going on court if you can barely even lift your racquet. It's not a matter of what's worse really, seems kind of silly.

What's worse if you don't feel that bad before the match, maybe a walkover. What's worse if you can barely move and can't even run and just limp about? Well it'd be the mid-match retirement, utterly pointless.
 
All these non athletes weighing in. Definitely not athletes if you've never tried to play thru an injury and fail. Even a high school athlete can relate to this.

Keyboard warriors instead

It's funny how basketball celebrates a failed attempt to play thru an injury as one of the sport's greatest moments ever but TTW keyboard warriors think it's some huge disgrace.
 
All these non athletes weighing in. Definitely not athletes if you've never tried to play thru an injury and fail. Even a high school athlete can relate to this.

Keyboard warriors instead

It's funny how basketball celebrates a failed attempt to play thru an injury as one of the sport's greatest moments ever but TTW keyboard warriors think it's some huge disgrace.
Who are you referring as "non athletes"? Because trust me, If I don't think I'm healthy enough to go on a match, I simply don't "give it a try", as if it's a serious question, I need to rest. If I step on court, I go til the end - even if I need to tank a set because of an injury.

And are you seriously comparing an individual sport to a team sport? This shows that YOU are not the athlete here. If I go on the pitch in a football team, for example, and can't go to the end, someone replaces me and thats it.
 
Who are you referring as "non athletes"? Because trust me, If I don't think I'm healthy enough to go on a match, I simply don't "give it a try", as if it's a serious question, I need to rest. If I step on court, I go til the end - even if I need to tank a set because of an injury.

And are you seriously comparing an individual sport to a team sport? This shows that YOU are not the athlete here. If I go on the pitch in a football team, for example, and can't go to the end, someone replaces me and thats it.

Well, I'm not going to stoop to personal attacks but trying to play thru an injury and failing is very common in all sports.

Your 2nd paragraph contains no logic, I'm sorry. In fact per that logic the solo sport would see more attempts to play thru injury because you lose instantly on walkover wherein team sports, as you said, the team carries on. In fact in team sports you are more likely to be hurting the team by trying to play thru. Yet it happens all the time.
 
Neither is better or worse. If you 100% know you can't play, don't try, if you think you could possibly pull through to find out you can't make it, then retire.........it's not that complicated!

Djokovic haters are embarrassing themselves by being completely pathetic now instead of just being trolls.
 
Neither is better or worse. If you 100% know you can't play, don't try, if you think you could possibly pull through to find out you can't make it, then retire.........it's not that complicated!

Thread ended right here. As Mav said, it ain't complicated
 
Well, I'm not going to stoop to personal attacks but trying to play thru an injury and failing is very common in all sports.

Your 2nd paragraph contains no logic, I'm sorry. In fact per that logic the solo sport would see more attempts to play thru injury because you lose instantly on walkover wherein team sports, as you said, the team carries on. In fact in team sports you are more likely to be hurting the team by trying to play thru. Yet it happens all the time.
Have you ever? I mean, "it happens all the time", but have you ever stepped in a court knowing that you're badly injured? Because I've played injured - not something baaad, but when I had a meniscus rupture I did, lost and didn't blame the injury nor retired during the match. And ffs, I'm an amateur.

It's nonsensical trying to compare tennis and football, for example. You can play a whole match of football injured, barely running and score a goal with one touch, but if you can't even run, how the hell can you play tennis? Once you put your feet in the pitch, nothing that happened before the match should matter.
 
Who are you referring as "non athletes"? Because trust me, If I don't think I'm healthy enough to go on a match, I simply don't "give it a try", as if it's a serious question, I need to rest. If I step on court, I go til the end - even if I need to tank a set because of an injury.

And are you seriously comparing an individual sport to a team sport? This shows that YOU are not the athlete here. If I go on the pitch in a football team, for example, and can't go to the end, someone replaces me and thats it.
You are ridiculous. It's one thing if a player chooses not to retire and tries to do their best playing injured. It may be reckless sometimes as they risk making the injury worse but the effort and devotion to the game the player shows are admirable . It's not the same if a player is injured and instead of retiring chooses to tank the match. Tanking is a dishonorable thing to do, it's disrespectful to your opponent and the crowd. Retirement is more reasonable and ethical than tanking.
 
People who think it's black and white probably have never been in a situation that is meaningful. Two years ago I was in the USTA sectionals for my team. I had won two long matches in under 24 hours and was asked to play at 9am the next day. The matches were in August. I felt OK to go out and play but then I felt dizzy and not well after the 2nd game (two very long games in the heat). I actually played the match at 30% capacity after taking a timeout, etc. but was no where near feeling well. In hindsight it was actually dangerous for me to keep going and I should have stopped instead of seeing if I would feel better as the match progressed. The pros actually can feel sick during a match as well. Eye infections can be awful as my wife gets them. It's OK to try and then retire because sometimes you just don't know if your body will cooperate or not before a match.
 
It's definitely better to try and not even try at all. What if your opponent is also injured a bit or sick or not totally fit? It's possible that the opponent may get injured while playing. I like players to go out and try as much as they can (unless there's a reasonable risk of making an existing injury/condition worse).
 
You are ridiculous. It's one thing if a player chooses not to retire and tries to do their best playing injured. It may be reckless sometimes as they risk making the injury worse but the effort and devotion to the game the player shows are admirable . It's not the same if a player is injured and instead of retiring chooses to tank the match. Tanking is a dishonorable thing to do, it's disrespectful to your opponent and the crowd. Retirement is more reasonable and ethical than tanking.
And retiring for no apparent reason is a honorable thing to do? Would you have preferred that Stan Wawrinka withdrew that match in 2012 Shangai Masters 3R after the second set? Funny because Djokovic injured himself in the middle of a match (in Basel 2011 against Nishikori), yet he played until the end and even lost the third set 6-0...
 
Have you ever? I mean, "it happens all the time", but have you ever stepped in a court knowing that you're badly injured? Because I've played injured - not something baaad, but when I had a meniscus rupture I did, lost and didn't blame the injury nor retired during the match. And ffs, I'm an amateur.

It's nonsensical trying to compare tennis and football, for example. You can play a whole match of football injured, barely running and score a goal with one touch, but if you can't even run, how the hell can you play tennis? Once you put your feet in the pitch, nothing that happened before the match should matter.
I'll let the other posters carry the argument. @The Fedfather , @atp2015 , @netlets and @mavsman149 have put it to rest as well as I can. If you still disagree with the pretty much irrefutable points they made then nothing more from me will change your mind.
 
When it's a matter of opinion, there's no such thing as "irrefutable points".

Yah it's not a matter of opinion. That's the point all these posters are trying to explain to you. It's straightforward common sense.
 
And retiring for no apparent reason is a honorable thing to do? Would you have preferred that Stan Wawrinka withdrew that match in 2012 Shangai Masters 3R after the second set? Funny because Djokovic injured himself in the middle of a match (in Basel 2011 against Nishikori), yet he played until the end and even lost the third set 6-0...
There was an apparent reason for Djokovic's retirement you just don't want to accept there was and I can't understand why.
 
No, if it's not something factual, it's a matter of opinion.
It's really not. There are so few scenarios here and most of them have very obvious answers:

1. You're injured and have no chance of success and would embarrass yourself and/or disrespect the game = you don't play.

2. You're injured and would make the injury worse by playing = you don't play unless it's the final match of your career.

3. You're injured but have a chance to win by playing thru it and playing won't make it significantly worse = you absolutely try to play, sometimes you'll fail and realize you're actually in category 1/2, you then retire.

4. You're injured and playing thru it COULD make it worse but you MIGHT be able to win = you weigh the risks and decide based on how important the match is. Slam final? Near end of your career?
 
Neither is better or worse. If you 100% know you can't play, don't try, if you think you could possibly pull through to find out you can't make it, then retire.........it's not that complicated!

Djokovic haters are embarrassing themselves by being completely pathetic now instead of just being trolls.
Yes, but as a pretty neutral fan I would say I would rather not watch a match at all than to see it stop. So I wish Novak had not played at all with his eye problem. I feel that way about all players.
 
Yes, but as a pretty neutral fan I would say I would rather not watch a match at all than to see it stop. So I wish Novak had not played at all with his eye problem. I feel that way about all players.

That's valid, as a fan that is a fair vantage point, I see how it is very disappointing to see a match abruptly end. However if Novak or any other player thinks they may be alright to start the match than I can't fault them for at least giving it a go.
 
Perhaps neither is "better", but I basically feel that a player who starts a match should finish the match, and should retire only if continue playing will cause the injury to get worse and perhaps affect future play. I do think Djokovic should have finished the match at Dubai. Lopez shouldn't have had his moment of converting his first ever match point against Djokovic denied.
 
Perhaps neither is "better", but I basically feel that a player who starts a match should finish the match, and should retire only if continued playing will cause the injury to get worse and perhaps affect future play. I do think Djokovic should have finished the match at Dubai. Lopez shouldn't have had his moment of converting his first ever match point against Djokovic denied.
I suppose that was the case with Djokovic, hm? He clearly underestimated his eye infection, but that is forgivable, just somewhat reckless (hopefully he is more careful next time - well, ideally there would be no next time, but Djokovic definitely intents playing for five more years at least, so it is unlikely)
If his eye really started flaming up, the pain could well become a major hindrance and render the second set farcical. No set is still better than a clown set where you can't really play.
 
Federer didn't play a match, what once in his career? Djokovic's whole career is based on retiring when he knows he's going to lose.
 
In general I think the player should play unless doing so would cause further harm to the body.
An example would be the AO Final between Mauresmo and Henin. IIRC, Amelie needed only 3-4 more games.
Henin was not walking on a sprained ankle or anything, she could have played out the last set and been done in 15 minutes.

Novak's recent issue I didn't read too much about. But we can assume he played out the first set knowing, to some degree, he wouldn't be finishing the match, so I give him credit.
Fed, again, who knows? If he thought he could seriously hurt himself by playing, of course he should not have.
 
Sucks that they killed Stannis. :( Can't stand Dany sitting on the throne. :(
I'm not counting him out until I see his body dead, but yea it's not looking well. And if Dany gets the throne I'm gonna be pissed, but I don't think there Will be any throne left in the end lol.
 
I suppose that was the case with Djokovic, hm? He clearly underestimated his eye infection, but that is forgivable, just somewhat reckless (hopefully he is more careful next time - well, ideally there would be no next time, but Djokovic definitely intents playing for five more years at least, so it is unlikely)
If his eye really started flaming up, the pain could well become a major hindrance and render the second set farcical. No set is still better than a clown set where you can't really play.

No set better than clown set ? Speak for yourself, but dont generalize.

If i paid for tickets, i rather see some action than an early withdrawal.

What is Rafa quit at the begining of the 2nd set at AO ? Would that be better than a 4 set match ?
 
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