Which is more likely, peak Djokovic defeating peak Federer at Wimbledon or peak Djokovic defeating peak Nadal at Roland Garros?

Which outcome is more likely?

  • Peak Djokovic defeating peak Federer at Wimbledon

    Votes: 91 91.9%

  • Peak Djokovic defeating peak Nadal at Roland Garros

    Votes: 8 8.1%
  • Total voters
    99
bnjkn said:
What are you talking about?
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Doesn't 2013 ring a bell to you?
2013 was peak Nadal. He had the best season of his career. On Ultimate tennis statistics, 2010 and 2013 are given the same number of points as seasons, and also Nadal won more Big Titles in 2013 than in 2010.
 
So how does the peaky game work here?

You just jump in and ignore everyone saying his peaky player will always beat your peaky player when both are peaking, and you just keep shouting and ignoring, moving the facts as sees fit?

Sounds funny, but a bit of a waste of time....
 
Megafanoftennis100 said:
Doesn't 2013 ring a bell to you?
2013 was peak Nadal. He had the best season of his career. On Ultimate tennis statistics, 2010 and 2013 are given the same number of points as seasons, and also Nadal won more Big Titles in 2013 than in 2010.
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No. He had I think his best american hardcourt run, but not his best season on clay.
 
Neither of them.
Joker has had more success in his 30s on natural surfaces than in his prime and that shows that he was not able to achieve it when they were in their prime.
:D
 
bnjkn said:
Peak Djokovic would be utterly destroyed by peak Nadal at RG. It's not even close.

It's not true that Djokovic has beaten peak Fed at W. In 2004-06 he was drinking milk from a bottle. But such a match (peak vs. peak) would be very close, an epic 5 set battle imo.
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This is total nonsense. Nobody doubts Nadal is obviously better, but "utterly destroyed" and "not even close" is a massive exaggeration.
 
BauerAlmeida said:
This is total nonsense. Nobody doubts Nadal is obviously better, but "utterly destroyed" and "not even close" is a massive exaggeration.
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Ok. I disagree. I think they're not close at all. I think saying they're somewhat close would be an exaggeration.
 
I love it when members of another fanbase try to assign when an opposing player’s peak was just so they can elevate their guy. Obviously RAFA’s peak at RG was 08, no version of Joker is coming close to beating him there and he’d be lucky to take a set in all honesty. In before the Bot Brigade brings up the SP he had in 08 courtesy of RAFA taking his foot off the gas when he was up 2-0 against a great playing Joker.

Now I’m not a Fraud fan so I won’t speak for them. If I had to guess I think most would pick 03 as his best run at Wimby.
 
Peak Djokovic loses to both pretty clearly but Nadal at RG is Nadal at RG so I'd go with it being more likely that Novak would beat Fed at Wimbledon.
 
The Blond Blur said:
I love it when members of another fanbase try to assign when an opposing player’s peak was just so they can elevate their guy. Obviously RAFA’s peak at RG was 08, no version of Joker is coming close to beating him there and he’d be lucky to take a set in all honesty. In before the Bot Brigade brings up the SP he had in 08 courtesy of RAFA taking his foot off the gas when he was up 2-0 against a great playing Joker.

Now I’m not a Fraud fan so I won’t speak for them. If I had to guess I think most would pick 03 as his best run at Wimby.
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2005 imo.
 
ppma said:
I'd go for Fed. More actively aggressive game has more chances to fail than spiny consistent passive aggression.
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My thought exactly. Grass is more prone for upset but slow clay gives quite a sizable margin for error.

Nadal(2006-2010) and Federer(2004-2009) would have obliterated any peak Djokovic on their best surface
 
The Blond Blur said:
05 Fred was my favorite Fred. He was still in God mode but got challenged by Safin at the AO and RAFA at RG. Definitely the best year of the mid 2000’s.
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I like the rawness of 2004 Fed a lot, but 2005 probably strikes the perfect balance between the instinctual shotmaking of 2004 and earlier, and the more percentage based play he peRFected in 2006.

Agree about 2005 as well, great year IMO. Let down a little towards the end but so just so many classic matches.
 
Which is easiest and which is hardest:

1. Defeat peak Federer at Wimbledon. Note: both Nadal & Djokovic have done so. How close Federer was at peak is up to you.
2. Defeat peak Nadal at RG. Nadal had lost just 3 times on RG. None of those he was at his peak. He lost just 3 matches since '05.
3. Defeat peak Djokovic at AO. Djokovic has been the champion there since '11, except '14 (Wawrinka beat him) and '22 (deportation). Wawrinka last beat him back in '14.

To me, #1 was easiest. And #2 was hardest, just edging #3.
 
The Blond Blur said:
I love it when members of another fanbase try to assign when an opposing player’s peak was just so they can elevate their guy. Obviously RAFA’s peak at RG was 08, no version of Joker is coming close to beating him there and he’d be lucky to take a set in all honesty. In before the Bot Brigade brings up the SP he had in 08 courtesy of RAFA taking his foot off the gas when he was up 2-0 against a great playing Joker.

Now I’m not a Fraud fan so I won’t speak for them. If I had to guess I think most would pick 03 as his best run at Wimby.
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I would say 2003 or 2004. Tested more in 2004 though.

Not a Fed fan ofc though.
 
Megafanoftennis100 said:
Doesn't 2013 ring a bell to you?
2013 was peak Nadal. He had the best season of his career. On Ultimate tennis statistics, 2010 and 2013 are given the same number of points as seasons, and also Nadal won more Big Titles in 2013 than in 2010.
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Look at the context and research better. 2013 was not Nadal's best year on clay not even his 2nd or 3rd. 2013 was his best HC year result wise atleast. 2008,2010,2012, 2007 probably all of these years were clearly better.
 
Lol peak Nadal vs peak Djokovic at Roland Garros is literally the least hypothetical match of all of tennis history, tied with peak Nadal vs peak Federer at Roland Garros

If Djokovic was going to beat Nadal at RG he would’ve beaten Nadal
 
Kralingen said:
Lol peak Nadal vs peak Djokovic at Roland Garros is literally the least hypothetical match of all of tennis history, tied with peak Nadal vs peak Federer at Roland Garros

If Djokovic was going to beat Nadal at RG he would’ve beaten Nadal
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We went through a fairly long faze were people were finding ways to make lose several of his RG titles to Fed and Djokovic and the 90s-early 00s boys
 
SonnyT said:
1. Defeat peak Federer at Wimbledon. Note: both Nadal & Djokovic have done so. How close Federer was at peak is up to you.
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Only a Nole fan would think a player who had peaked at Wimbledon in 2003 (and had lost to Nadal in 2008, Berdych in 2010, Tsonga in 2011, and Stakhovsky in 2013) was still peak in 2014.
 
robert.s said:
Beating peak Nadal at the FO is the hardest one match feat in tennis, but if one could do it, it's peak Djokovic.
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On clay there’s zero chance
At most it would be a routine 4 setter
Djokovic beat 2 garbage declined versions of Nadal at Roland Garros and lost to Fed at his peak in 4 who is a worse clay courter than Nadal
What logic can you use that suggests anything other than straight sets or routine 4? Prime Djokovic couldn’t even beat 12-14 Nadal where Nadal was already a tier or 2 below his peak
 
JoelSandwich said:
On clay there’s zero chance
At most it would be a routine 4 setter
Djokovic beat 2 garbage declined versions of Nadal at Roland Garros and lost to Fed at his peak in 4 who is a worse clay courter than Nadal
What logic can you use that suggests anything other than straight sets or routine 4? Prime Djokovic couldn’t even beat 12-14 Nadal where Nadal was already a tier or 2 below his peak
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2012 Nadal is one of the best versions ever and 2013 was really good as well. Of course, if they play one match Nadal is extremely likely to win since he's the best ever there. That doesn't mean Djokovic can't take a match if they play many times. Just like Djokovic is better at the AO but if they play several matches Nadal can win eventually.
 
Novak beating prime Fed on grass is more plausible than Nadal. For the simple fact that Novak beat Roger 3 times in Wimbledon Finals and in two cases where Federer should have won. We can argue all day about how close to prime form Fed was in those matches but I'd also bring up the 2010-2011 USO matches that Fed had no business losing to Novak and did. So there's a mental factor to this. So let's say 2015 Novak faces 2005 Fed, I think it's accurate to assume 2-3 opportunities result in Novak victories.

Meanwhile to Nadal, they are contemporaries being 1 year apart and although Nadal had more success in his 19-22 years it's not like Novak was a late bloomer so their 2013-2014 matches really put into perspective Novak's chances against Nadal of 2006-08 or if some prefer 2008 & 2010 Nadal. He loses every single time.
 
Fedrer lost to Nadal in Wimbeldon in his peak years. So peak Novak has some chances there. 2/10
Nadal on clay was very hard to beat and that too in FO . And you say peak nadal no chance for any player .
Peak fedrer peak novak peak murray or any player from past and present alcaraz sinner etc has no chance against nadal at his peak on FO. 0/10
 
a good question
if only one match would be played, djoker would have a bigger chance on clay (similar to soderling case)
but for more than one match played, the chance of djoker beating fed is bigger (i.e. relatively)
 
darthrafa said:
a good question
if only one match would be played, djoker would have a bigger chance on clay (similar to soderling case)
but for more than one match played, the chance of djoker beating fed is bigger (i.e. relatively)
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Novak lost 5 times to peak Nadal at RG, not happening.
 
The Blond Blur said:
neither-of-them-really-benedict-townsend.gif
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Can defeat a peak Jannik Sinner (no holds barred).
 
Neither really.

The closest he came to beating a peak version of Nadal was in 2013 in a 5 setter when Nadal was 26 (still young and he had an incredible season, but that dreadful loss at Wimbledon showed his body was no longer what it was), and the closest he faced to peak Federer was in 2012 when Federer beat him in a not very competitive 4 set match when Federer was a month or so away from 31.
 
pringles said:
Alcaraz is 2-0 vs Djokovic in Wimbledon finals. Carlos is just better than Djokovic, no excuses?
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Hmm, but the problem is:
1. Alcaraz is SIXTEEN years younger than Djokovic, not just six. Quite literally, Djokovic is old enough to be Carlos's father (had he been an irresponsible teenager lol)
2. The first time Alcaraz beat Djokovic was when the latter was 36 years old. That's almost equivalent to someone defeating Wimbledon 2017/2018 version of Federer. The second time Alcaraz beat Djokovic was when the latter was just coming back from a knee surgery and was incredibly lucky to reach the finals because of a completely cakewalk draw.

So I am not sure about prime Alcaraz being "better" than prime Djokovic at Wimbledon. However, IF Alcaraz defeats an in-form, fully healthy, going-all-out version of Jannik Sinner at Wimbledon (which I guarantee will never happen), then yeah, Alcaraz would be FAR better on grass than not just Djokovic but also peak Federer himself.
 
Megafanoftennis100 said:
The first time Alcaraz beat Djokovic was when the latter was 36 years old.
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Djokovic won 3 Slams and the WTF that year, Alcaraz who was still a rookie on grass at the time beat him fair and square, it wasn't some washed up version of Djokovic, he simply got outplayed.

Djokovic having that kind of year even at 36 losing to baby Alcaraz who barely knew how to play on grass is far worse than a 33/34-year old Federer losing Wimbledon finals to peak Djokovic. 2024 was a formality no matter if Djokovic was injured or not and this year it will be an even bigger formality if they face each other again.
Megafanoftennis100 said:
However, IF Alcaraz defeats an in-form, fully healthy, going-all-out version of Jannik Sinner at Wimbledon (which I guarantee will never happen), then yeah, Alcaraz would be FAR better on grass than not just Djokovic but also peak Federer himself.
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Alcaraz is beating the best version of Sinner time after time, have you been living under the rock? Sinner literally has perfect set-ups for Alcaraz and is actually playing his best and he's STILL losing (take the 2024 Beijing final as an example or the FO final recently).

I don't think there's anything Sinner can do at this point to defeat Alcaraz in a big match on any surface unless Alcaraz is below his best. He's lost 6 of the last 8 matches against him (and the 2 matches Alcaraz lost were a 500 SF and a Masters SF) and even on his beloved hard he's 2-5 and hasn't beaten Alcaraz in any signifcant match since 2022 Wimbledon before Alcaraz even won his first Slam.

I literally don't know how you can make any argument for Sinner at this point especially after the FO final. Alcaraz just has a gear that Sinner can't reach and I don't think he ever will since he's maxed out on how well he can play with this playing style.

Saying that Alcaraz needs to defeat some magical peak Sinner at Wimbledon to prove himself after what we have witnessed in their matches in the last 2-3 years is laughable. If there's anyone who has to prove himself at this point is Sinner, because to me it feels he is only capable of winning a big tournament if Alcaraz is out of his way so he can pound on players like Paul and Fritz in Slam semis and finals.

And btw even if Alcaraz beats Sinner at Wimbledon it won't prove anything about his level in comparison to someone like Fed. Peak Federer would slice and dice this Sinner at Wimbledon, his lanky going all out on every shot wouldn't work against someone like Fed who ate mindless hard hitters for breakfast.
 
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Hood_Man said:
Neither really.

The closest he came to beating a peak version of Nadal was in 2013 in a 5 setter when Nadal was 26 (still young and he had an incredible season, but that dreadful loss at Wimbledon showed his body was no longer what it was), and the closest he faced to peak Federer was in 2012 when Federer beat him in a not very competitive 4 set match when Federer was a month or so away from 31.
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No-one is going to beat peak Rafa at Roland Garros, this is certain.



Roger definitely is not at that level on grass. The only player who can beat peak Roger Federer on grass is the Wimbledon King Pete Sampras..
 
Megafanoftennis100 said:
Alcaraz is SIXTEEN years younger than Djokovi
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Just for my benefit, was this an argument you were making prior to around 7pm on Sunday 16th July 2023?

Also, just to pull some numbers completely at random, what would be the cut off point between, say, 6 years and 16 years where it would no longer be appropriate to consider age gaps between players?

Just curious, as someone who's always believed that age gaps were a relevant talking point but I seem to be seeing a lot more of it recently.
 
pringles said:
Djokovic won 3 Slams and the WTF that year, Alcaraz who was still a rookie on grass at the time beat him fair and square, it wasn't some washed up version of Djokovic, he simply got outplayed.

Djokovic having that kind of year even at 36 losing to baby Alcaraz who barely knew how to play on grass is far worse than a 33/34-year old Federer losing Wimbledon finals to peak Djokovic. 2024 was a formality no matter if Djokovic was injured or not and this year it will be an even bigger formality if they face each other again.
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The only reason that a 36 year old Djokovic was able to have such a dominant season in 2023 was because the field was ridiculously weak. Anyone who has followed the 2023 season with an unbiased lens can easily agree that the level of competition that year was significantly weaker than in 2014 and even 2015.
There is no doubt that 2014 Federer would've won 3 Slams in a year had he competed in 2023.
At the 2014 AO, Federer had to deal with a very in-form Nadal, who is incomparably better than any opponent Djokovic faced at the 2023 AO and even Djokovic himself for that matter. No Tsitsipases, Rublevs or De Minaurs was going to stop 2014 Federer at the AO.
At 2014 RG, Federer lost in R4, fine. But let's not forget the absolute cakewalk draw Djokovic had at 2023 RG. His draw was such a cakewalk that I bet any objective tennis fan would give 2014 Federer a decent chance of winning the 2023 RG with the same draw. The only remotely notable opponents Djokovic faced throughout the entire tournament was Khachanov, a cramping Alcaraz and Ruud. The version of Gulbis that beat Federer (and even then, just barely) at 2014 RG played far better than any of them.
At Wimbledon 2014, you are right that Federer lost to peak Djokovic. But just barely, with 6-4 in the 5th. There is absolutely no reason to believe he would lose to 2023 Djokovic at Wimbledon.
At USO 2014, Federer only lost to the eventual champion Marin Cilic who was playing absolutely lights out tennis. Before that, Roger was crushing everyone in the way. I think pretty much all tennis fans and TTW users can agree that Cilic's 2014 US Open run truly great, even by the strong era standards. This version of CIlic would've destroyed anyone in the 2023 USO draw, including Djokovic himself. Give 2014 Federer the 2023 USO draw that Djokovic had, and I bet all my money that he wins the title with even more ease.
At the 2014 ATP Finals, Federer did have to withdraw before the finals match, fine. But at least he did make it all the way to the finals, where peak Djokovic awaited him. And before that, Federer defeated a prime Wawrinka, who is a better opponent than 2023 versions of Alcaraz and Sinner on indoor HC.

And then, of course, there is also the Shanghai and Cincinnati titles that Federer won in 2014 as well, in both of which he was almost unplayable (especially Shanghai).

So even 2014 Federer would win 3 Slams, 2 Masters and the WTF in 2023, possibly even a CYGS.
 
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