Which Masters record will be broken In the Future

Hitman said:
You can disagree all you want, no problem. I still stand by it.

A player can win 15 titles and underachieve...how nice, then I guess we can throw out all the talk about declining due to age.
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I just said my opinion about your post. I also stand by mine like i said at first.

Agree to disagree then.
 
The Blond Blur said:
He had just beaten Timmy back to back in Barca and Madrid, and would go on to smash him at RG. No reason he shouldn’t have played better in that match.
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To be fair, Madrid final was very close, despite ending in straight sets. Thiem kept the high level, and deserved to get a win. But of course he had to massively disappoint in the very next match against Djokovic, and then in RG semifinal. (which many expected to be a battle)

In any case, Nadal would also have to beat Djokovic (who was playing very well in Rome before the final) and then Zverev. Given how much he already played during that clay season, don't think he was going all the way. At his age he clearly needed to rest, and focus on what really matters.
 
StrongRule said:
The fact that 7-5 7-5 and 6-3 2-6 6-1 wins are the toughest wins he had there shows how dominant he was in his prime there. Nobody could even imagine that on that same court he will one day hit 44 unforced errors against Ferrer, or play his worst ever clay match against Fognini. I mean, not winning a title where Fognini and Lajovic are the only players left in the draw is probably the biggest missed chance a big 3 player ever had.
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I don't think the question about how dominant he was there, we know how good he was in MC, and I personally think his record will stand. But he could have lost those matches that I mentioned also, Federer had him on the ropes in both sets, and Djokovic took away all the momentum heading into the third and was looking the stronger player. The actual score line is deceptive, the games were very hard fought.

Nadal hurt his back in 2014 and was never the same again, we know what happened to him 2014 and thereafter. The losses you speak about all happened very late in career, he wasn't going to keep winning forever, otherwise he would never retire.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Sinner has 1 masters title till now. Hasn't made Shanghai finals I think. Why should he break the record? It's not same as alcaraz and Madrid where he has proven track record and it's just a matter of time.
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Sinner is going to do well on those Shanghai courts. Shame he peaked early in China open. He was tired for Shanghai.
 
Hitman said:
He could have lost in 2008, both sets Federer was ahead, and basically choked away leads. He could also have lost in 2009, as Djokovic pushed him super hard on clay that season.

He got a few wins that he could have lost also, so it balances out IMO.

In 2016 he was fortunate with Djokovic, who looked near invincible at that point, losing early, allowing Nadal a great chance to take that title. And of course as you know it is well documented, that 2017 is weak era, so he picked up more titles in 2017 and 2018 because of that.

11 titles is incredible and I think the record will stand the test of time.
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He could have lost far more matches at Rome than MC thats why i disagree mainly. And at MC he was almost never close to losing. Yes he lost a set to Djokovic in 2009 he wasn't dominant there but still won convincingly last set. I checked the points won in MC 2008 against Federer it is 76 to 62 huge gap for a 2 set match.

We discussed this many times but you said that Djokovic won easily their Rome match and hence it wouldn't make any difference in 2016 had they faced at RG.
Nadal missed many set points.

Total points won in Rome 2016: 87 to 84 for Djokovic.
Nadal almost never come close to losing at MC the years he won unlike Rome.
 
Phenomenal said:
He could have lost far more matches at Rome than MC thats why i disagree mainly. And at MC he was almost never close to losing. Yes he lost a set to Djokovic in 2009 he wasn't dominant there but still won convincingly last set. I checked the points won in MC 2008 against Federer it is 76 to 62 huge gap for a 2 set match.

We discussed this many times but you said that Djokovic won easily their Rome match and hence it wouldn't make any difference in 2016 had they faced at RG.
Nadal missed many set points.

Total points won in Rome 2016: 87 to 84 for Djokovic.
Nadal almost never come close to losing at MC the years he won unlike Rome.
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I'm not even talking about Rome with @StrongRule

My discussion is solely about Nadal at MC, I don't feel at all he underachieved, he won 11 titles, which is about right for him. That is how I feel, and that isn't changing.
 
Phenomenal said:
He could have lost far more matches at Rome than MC thats why i disagree mainly. And at MC he was almost never close to losing. Yes he lost a set to Djokovic in 2009 he wasn't dominant there but still won convincingly last set. I checked the points won in MC 2008 against Federer it is 76 to 62 huge gap for a 2 set match.

We discussed this many times but you said that Djokovic won easily their Rome match and hence it wouldn't make any difference in 2016 had they faced at RG.
Nadal missed many set points.

Total points won in Rome 2016: 87 to 84 for Djokovic.
Nadal almost never come close to losing at MC the years he won unlike Rome.
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You yourself know this well everybody knows Nadal is light years ahead at RG than Madrid. You even claimed that he wouldn't have defeated Murray in RG16 due to his loss in Madrid.
Might be because many think Nadal wouldn't win RG at the time in TTW you said as far as i remember.
 
StrongRule said:
To be fair, Madrid final was very close, despite ending in straight sets. Thiem kept the high level, and deserved to get a win. But of course he had to massively disappoint in the very next match against Djokovic, and then in RG semifinal. (which many expected to be a battle)

In any case, Nadal would also have to beat Djokovic (who was playing very well in Rome before the final) and then Zverev. Given how much he already played during that clay season, don't think he was going all the way. At his age he clearly needed to rest, and focus on what really matters.
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Madrid match was high quality and close match. They have great straight set matches.
 
@nolefam_2024 Sinner will come close to Djokovic in terms of amount of Rome titles. But he will fall short. I think he wins his first either this year or next year. I predict he wins around 4 titles in Rome.
 
StrongRule said:
If we assume he plays in the same era then at least 15. He was robbed in 2021 because of the DO conditions. And who knows, maybe if the organizers didn't ruin his favorite tournament, maybe he would be able to avoid the long matches he had in 2022 there, and as a result avoided the career ending injury.
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So 15-16 titles
 
Hitman said:
I'm not even talking about Rome with @StrongRule

My discussion is solely about Nadal at MC, I don't feel at all he underachieved, he won 11 titles, which is about right for him. That is how I feel, and that isn't changing.
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I was disagreeing with he could have lost and thats why it balances out comment. Nadal with 11 titles was almost never come close to losing. Or just 2. It is the second most dominant event. Then almost most titles of Big 3 they were close to losing including Nadal in other events.
 
Phenomenal said:
I was disagreeing with he could have lost and thats why it balances out comment. Nadal with 11 titles was almost never come close to losing. Or just 2. It is the second most dominant event. Then almost most titles of Big 3 they were close to losing including Nadal in other events.
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Yes, I know you disagree, and I am fine with that, I still stand by it and disagree with your counter argument. You agree to disagree, so that's that, right? What else do you think needs to be said?
 
These Sinner fans are so ridiculous. Dude is 22.5 with 1 masters title and he has 0 pedigree whatsoever at Rome and Shanghai (1 QF) and he's just gonna be better than or as good as Djokovic at both places.
 
The Guru said:
These Sinner fans are so ridiculous. Dude is 22.5 with 1 masters title and he has 0 pedigree whatsoever at Rome and Shanghai (1 QF) and he's just gonna be better than or as good as Djokovic at both places.
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Federer also had 1 masters title at the same age, I don’t get your reasoning?
 
dking68 said:
Federer also had 1 masters title at the same age, I don’t get your reasoning?
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1. Sinner is not Federer
2. There have probably been quite a few players who had 1 masters or more at 22.5 and came nowhere close to Federer
3. Even if Sinner were Federer he would still be drastically worse than Djokovic at Rome and Shanghai
 
The Guru said:
1. Sinner is not Federer
2. There have probably been quite a few players who had 1 masters or more at 22.5 and came nowhere close to Federer
3. Even if Sinner were Federer he would still be drastically worse than Djokovic at Rome and Shanghai
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Sinner will win a bunch of Shanghai titles. And ATP finals. Anything that is fast hard court he’ll dominate. He’ll dominate fast clay as well
 
Phenomenal said:
Assuming the tour stay like it is today which masters tournament record do you think will get broken?
I think many of the masters tournament records will get broken since the masters tour established only since 1990. There are basically big 3, Sampras and Agassi.

Indian Wells: Federer(5), Djokovic(5)
Miami: Agassi(6), Djokovic(6)
Monte-Carlo: Nadal(11)
Madrid: Federer(6)
Rome: Nadal(10)
Canada(Montreal and Toronto): Lendl(6)
Cincinnati: Federer(7)
Shanghai: Djokovic(4), Murray(4)
Paris Masters: Djokovic(7)


Good to see Lendl and Agassi here.

** Lendl's Canada record is the only record before 1990. If you only count from 1990 it is Nadal with 5 Canada titles.
**Hamburg and Madrid(clay) titles are combined. I included Madrid titles into Shangai before 2009. Hence Murray has 4 Shangai one of them is from 2008.
**Most masters has not been played in 2020 and Shangai didn't played from 2020 to 2022.

Nadal and Djokovic also Murray are still active so there is a chance to extend the records.
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Ferrero has 6 clay masters I.e 4 Hamburg and 2 Madrid clay masters but that doesn't mean 6 Madrid.
In fact, Feeder has 1 Madrid Hard court masters too at 2006.

At the end , it's the titles that count. If you want to specify masters, specify all 3 I.e Hamburg, Madrid and Shanghai.

The masters have changed a lot. So a tournament may remain a masters, maybe not. But its the tournament that will stay
 
Phenomenal said:
Assuming the tour stay like it is today which masters tournament record do you think will get broken?
I think many of the masters tournament records will get broken since the masters tour established only since 1990. There are basically big 3, Sampras and Agassi.

Indian Wells: Federer(5), Djokovic(5)
Miami: Agassi(6), Djokovic(6)
Monte-Carlo: Nadal(11)
Madrid: Federer(6)
Rome: Nadal(10)
Canada(Montreal and Toronto): Lendl(6)
Cincinnati: Federer(7)
Shanghai: Djokovic(4), Murray(4)
Paris Masters: Djokovic(7)


Good to see Lendl and Agassi here.

** Lendl's Canada record is the only record before 1990. If you only count from 1990 it is Nadal with 5 Canada titles.
**Hamburg and Madrid(clay) titles are combined. I included Madrid titles into Shangai before 2009. Hence Murray has 4 Shangai one of them is from 2008.
**Most masters has not been played in 2020 and Shangai didn't played from 2020 to 2022.

Nadal and Djokovic also Murray are still active so there is a chance to extend the records.
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I reckon IW will be broken soon by Alcatraz.
He will also win more Madrid clay masters than anyone else has won on Madrid clay
 
Phenomenal said:
Nadal and Djokovic also Murray are still active so there is a chance to extend the records.

My takes

Indian Wells: Strongly think this will get broken and also probably by Alcaraz.
Miami: Not sure i think will get caught. Sinner to break if he wins this week?
Monte-Carlo: I don't think so.
Madrid: Yes and probably by Alcaraz
Rome: Very difficult.
Canada(Montreal and Toronto): Probably
Cincinnati: Not sure difficult but not impossible.
Shanghai: Obviously.
Paris Masters: Maybe not.

Looks like none of this is impossible over a long career except Nadal's maybe even Rome is not impossible.
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Nobody is going to surpass Nadal's mark in Rome.
:D
 
duaneeo said:
Federer has 4 Hamburg Masters titles and 3 Madrid titles.

And unless Hamburg is again made a Masters, his record there is safe.
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It does not work like this.
His title in Madrid indoors is added to the titles he later won in Shanghai.
:)
Phenomenal said:
Nadal's title gap in Rome and MC doesn't reflect his level of play there. Should be 3 or 2.

14 RG to 10 Rome reflects well looks like exactly how i think.
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Nadal underachieved at Roland Garros.
He should have won at least 16 titles there.
The climate and the transformation from RG to DO prevented it.
:(:confused:
 
StrongRule said:
If we assume he plays in the same era then at least 15. He was robbed in 2021 because of the DO conditions. And who knows, maybe if the organizers didn't ruin his favorite tournament, maybe he would be able to avoid the long matches he had in 2022 there, and as a result avoided the career ending injury.
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Nadal, healthy, would have won RG 2023 easily.
Seeing the level of the champion of that edition, it is easy to deduce it.
:)
 
IW: Yes.
Miami: Probably.
Montecarlo: No.
Madrid: Yes.
Rome: No.
Canada: Yes.
Cincinatti: Very difficult.
Shanghai: Yes.
Paris-Bercy: Extremely difficult.
8-B
 
AO13 said:
There is no way anyone ever breaks Nadal's Monte Carlo and Rome title records.
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I really wish he could win one more MC this year. It would just feel right.

22tennis.1.600.jpg
 
The Guru said:
These Sinner fans are so ridiculous. Dude is 22.5 with 1 masters title and he has 0 pedigree whatsoever at Rome and Shanghai (1 QF) and he's just gonna be better than or as good as Djokovic at both places.
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He is not going to be better than Djokovic at Rome. Shangai is meaningless, less important due to conditions.
dking68 said:
Sinner will be a multiple Rome champion.
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He better do in his home country otherwise it would be shame. I think he will win Rome few times.
 
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roysid said:
Ferrero has 6 clay masters I.e 4 Hamburg and 2 Madrid clay masters but that doesn't mean 6 Madrid.
In fact, Feeder has 1 Madrid Hard court masters too at 2006.

At the end , it's the titles that count. If you want to specify masters, specify all 3 I.e Hamburg, Madrid and Shanghai.

The masters have changed a lot. So a tournament may remain a masters, maybe not. But its the tournament that will stay
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Ferrero you mean Federer? But they replaced Hamburg to Madrid. I don't think its unfair to combine. Nadal also has 6 Madrid titles but one of them indoor HC and i didn't included, completely different conditions even schedule was different.
 
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nolefam_2024 said:
Honestly speaking without Nadal around , even Djokovic would have been at 10 Rome titles. All these records are breakable.

MC seems the most unbreakable but probably for all the wrong reasons. Pros will start skipping it or not being able to be fit enough to play it more and more as most players will try slams only approach.

In terms of true difficulty Paris is probably up there. It's indoors and players get tired and indoors is very difficult surface to win it.

This is not as easy to make claims as RG 14 at all. Even the clay ones can be broken.
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I seriously doubt any of Nadal's clay titles records will ever be broken. Though, less sure, I doubt Novak's Paris and Roger's Cincinatti will either. Winning more than 5 titles in one venue is a very difficult thing to achieve.
 
thrust said:
I seriously doubt any of Nadal's clay titles records will ever be broken. Though, less sure, I doubt Novak's Paris and Roger's Cincinatti will either. Winning more than 5 titles in one venue is a very difficult thing to achieve.
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I guarantee it will happen. If big 3 can do it someone else will as well. If it's double digits then I am less sure.
 
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