Which method of tossing would be better for controlling your toss?

[EddieBrock]

My problem is I go from a straight to bent, back to straight tossing arm and also do this little flick with my wrist as I'm tossing. My coach has suggested the method described by Brent Abel since he says it should take a lot of elements out of the motion. So that's what I've been working on lately.

Just yesterday I saw the Feel Tennis video and I tried tossing like that just in my house and that feels pretty good and I don't get that much rotation.

Should I just continue with the sideways motion or is it worth experimenting with resting the ball where the palm meets the fingers?

I'm also trying to stay pretty still while I toss since my body tends to move around a lot and make it hard to control the toss. If you look at 4:10 on the Edgar video he says to limit body movement during the toss, which is what I've been trying to do. At the end of the Feel Tennis he says just the opposite...that you should incorporate the toss into your natural throwing type motion.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

My problem is I go from a straight to bent, back to straight tossing arm and also do this little flick with my wrist as I'm tossing.

Whatever you do, don't flick your wrist. The wrist has multiple degrees of freedom to bend and twist and you don't want this freedom when you're tossing.

The more you use the bigger muscles [shoulder and arm] and the less you use the smaller [elbow, wrist, & fingers], the less variable your toss will be.

Think of your arm like a platform that only has one degree of freedom [up/down] and you're using the platform to raise the ball up to the desired position. This is a much more stable way of looking at the toss, IMO, rather than a throw.

 

[sovertennis]

The ice cream cone method may be worth a try.

 

[Born_to_slice]

Whatever you do, don't flick your wrist. The wrist has multiple degrees of freedom to bend and twist and you don't want this freedom when you're tossing.

The more you use the bigger muscles [shoulder and arm] and the less you use the smaller [elbow, wrist, & fingers], the less variable your toss will be.

Think of your arm like a platform that only has one degree of freedom [up/down] and you're using the platform to raise the ball up to the desired position. This is a much more stable way of looking at the toss, IMO, rather than a throw.

It's ok to use wrist, but movement must not be sudden and twitchy.

Also ball is definitely held with fingers but not flicked in the air with power by them. Maybe you meant same thing though?

 

[EddieBrock]

Whatever you do, don't flick your wrist. The wrist has multiple degrees of freedom to bend and twist and you don't want this freedom when you're tossing.

The more you use the bigger muscles [shoulder and arm] and the less you use the smaller [elbow, wrist, & fingers], the less variable your toss will be.

Think of your arm like a platform that only has one degree of freedom [up/down] and you're using the platform to raise the ball up to the desired position. This is a much more stable way of looking at the toss, IMO, rather than a throw.

The wrist flick is involuntary. I remember a coach told me about it 10 years ago and I'm still doing it and still struggling with the toss. I practice tossing just fine, but as soon as I toss to hit the ball my wrist flicks. So with the ice cream cone method I start with my palm facing the side, then it flicks up, then goes back to the side. I watched a slow motion video and I was shocked I was still doing it. It's like wanting to propel the ball makes my wrist get involved. My goal has been to get rid of that flick, but now I'm wondering about using the other method.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

It's ok to use wrist, but movement must not be sudden and twitchy.

Also ball is definitely held with fingers but not flicked in the air with power by them. Maybe you meant same thing though?

To me, "flick" implies a sudden action, not a gradual one.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

The wrist flick is involuntary. I remember a coach told me about it 10 years ago and I'm still doing it and still struggling with the toss. I practice tossing just fine, but as soon as I toss to hit the ball my wrist flicks. So with the ice cream cone method I start with my palm facing the side, then it flicks up, then goes back to the side. I watched a slow motion video and I was shocked I was still doing it. It's like wanting to propel the ball makes my wrist get involved. My goal has been to get rid of that flick, but now I'm wondering about using the other method.

Try restraining your wrist: tape it so it doesn't move, just so you can get an idea of what an artificially stable wrist feels like.

You're probably so accustomed to involving your wrist that it will be a hard habit to break. Locking it in place might help you in the right direction.

 

[Born_to_slice]

To me, "flick" implies a sudden action, not a gradual one.

Yes, that's what I meant. Fingers should just release the ball.

 

[sredna42]

The wrist flick is involuntary. I remember a coach told me about it 10 years ago and I'm still doing it and still struggling with the toss. I practice tossing just fine, but as soon as I toss to hit the ball my wrist flicks. So with the ice cream cone method I start with my palm facing the side, then it flicks up, then goes back to the side. I watched a slow motion video and I was shocked I was still doing it. It's like wanting to propel the ball makes my wrist get involved. My goal has been to get rid of that flick, but now I'm wondering about using the other method.

-go from bent arm to straight,
-from a stop start (no sling or run up or whatever)
-with the "ice cream cone" feel

seems to eliminate the natural tendency to sling that happens with a straight arm, and stops the wrist introducing massive margin for error

then I follow the ball with the tossing hand as it goes up, and turn hand so palm kinda points at the court

 

[Kevo]

It's not that hard. Try 2 or 3 different styles and then pick one. After that, practice tossing the ball over and over into the same spot. Keep practicing until you can get it there nearly every time. Then try to hit some easy relaxed serves while still making sure you are getting the ball to the same contact spot every time. Keep doing that for a while until you are confident in it. Then you can try to hit some full speed serves. You may need to adjust your toss a bit once you get to full speed. Just make sure you keep concentrating on getting the toss to where you want it and don't get distracted from that by focusing too much on where you are hitting the serve.

It's mostly about practice. Pretty much any toss motion you can repeat reliably will work. A lot of people just don't practice their toss that much. What they do is pretend or intend they are practicing the toss when really they are practicing their serve.

 

[SpinToWin]

My problem is I go from a straight to bent, back to straight tossing arm and also do this little flick with my wrist as I'm tossing. My coach has suggested the method described by Brent Abel since he says it should take a lot of elements out of the motion. So that's what I've been working on lately.

Just yesterday I saw the Feel Tennis video and I tried tossing like that just in my house and that feels pretty good and I don't get that much rotation.

Should I just continue with the sideways motion or is it worth experimenting with resting the ball where the palm meets the fingers?

I'm also trying to stay pretty still while I toss since my body tends to move around a lot and make it hard to control the toss. If you look at 4:10 on the Edgar video he says to limit body movement during the toss, which is what I've been trying to do. At the end of the Feel Tennis he says just the opposite...that you should incorporate the toss into your natural throwing type motion.

Don’t listen to the Feel tennis guy. Keep your body still during the throw if you’re having difficulties with its placement. It’s the most reliable method in situations where it matters - i.e. it won’t suddenly break down in a match situation.

 

[Curious]

Lock the elbow and the wrist if you can. What’s left to move? Shoulder and the ball only! Fewer moving parts less likely to go wrong. Look at the ball, watch it going up to where you will hit it. If you don’t track it, how can you know what sort of toss it is? No?

 

[Kevo]

Lock the elbow and the wrist if you can. What’s left to move? Shoulder and the ball only! Fewer moving parts less likely to go wrong. Look at the ball, watch it going up to where you will hit it. If you don’t track it, how can you know what sort of toss it is? No?

The problem some people have with that method is the fact the the ball is continually changing directions when you swing from the shoulder. You have to have good timing and consistency to get the ball to drift into the same place every time. Nothing wrong with the method, just that it's simplicity in terms of biomechanics may be offset by it's complexity in regards to physics.

The simplest method in terms of physics is to use a bent elbow at the start and lift the ball straight up and let go at the top. The ball travels in a vertical line and will go straight up if you lift straight up. No drifting and the only trick to that is getting the height the same every time, which is something you have to manage with both methods.

I usually find that most people will start to have success with one of those methods fairly quickly. From that point it's just practice to gain consistency. People just really have a mental block a lot of times finding the motivation to actually practice the toss much. Most people want to swing at that pesky ball no matter where they are tossing it.

 

[BBender716]

Something I found useful too is to make sure and practice with your other arm's motion at the same time. Don't just toss with your left arm and keep your right arm limp. This coordination may take work at first but it will prevent you from reverting to old habits once you add it in.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[EddieBrock]

Something I found useful too is to make sure and practice with your other arm's motion at the same time. Don't just toss with your left arm and keep your right arm limp. This coordination may take work at first but it will prevent you from reverting to old habits once you add it in.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

You're right that adding my right arm (racket arm) has a huge effect on the toss. So does the rocking motion. It seems like the other variables that I need to control better are:

1. The wrist flick I already mentioned
2. Sometimes I catch myself rotating my body towards the opponent as I'm tossing. So instead of just lifting with my shoulder I rotate around a little bit and get my chest facing my opponent.

When I'm trying to swing hard or guide the toss over my head/left shoulder for the kick it feels natural to want to rotate my upper body where I'm tossing.

I haven't played since posting this, but have been working on the toss just in my house

 

[acintya]

this toss method saved my life.

we are NOT pros!! use this plz and dont over complicate..buy me some ice cream or bitcoins instead.

watch this 7 part series too:

i think we are done here.

if you go the other way you are only inviting problems. unless you really have a lot of time available this is the easiest and most efficient way to go.

 

[Curious]

The problem some people have with that method is the fact the the ball is continually changing directions when you swing from the shoulder. You have to have good timing and consistency to get the ball to drift into the same place every time. Nothing wrong with the method, just that it's simplicity in terms of biomechanics may be offset by it's complexity in regards to physics.

The simplest method in terms of physics is to use a bent elbow at the start and lift the ball straight up and let go at the top. The ball travels in a vertical line and will go straight up if you lift straight up. No drifting and the only trick to that is getting the height the same every time, which is something you have to manage with both methods.

I usually find that most people will start to have success with one of those methods fairly quickly. From that point it's just practice to gain consistency. People just really have a mental block a lot of times finding the motivation to actually practice the toss much. Most people want to swing at that pesky ball no matter where they are tossing it.

Interesting. You think a bent elbow may be better. (I think I see your point physics-wise). Any pro examples? Like Sam Groth?

 

[HuusHould]

Like Sam Groth?

Whatever you do, dont model your toss on Groths, he had an inconsistent ball toss, that broke down under pressure and when I modeled my whole serve (including the toss) on his, I started having tossing issues which Id never had in the past and they still havent been fully rectified. The ice cream cone grip was eventually what I settled on and I think settling on something is important, I kept trying new remedies without ever giving myself enough time to master them.

 

[Curious]

Whatever you do, dont model your toss on Groths, he had an inconsistent ball toss, that broke down under pressure and when I modeled my whole serve (including the toss) on his, I started having tossing issues which Id never had in the past and they still havent been fully rectified. The ice cream cone grip was eventually what I settled on and I think settling on something is important, I kept trying new remedies without ever giving myself enough time to master them.

I know. He just came to mind as an example for bent elbow ball toss.
By the way Kyrgios has the best ball toss imo. Tossing arm goingg up along the baseline is the silliest thing. He lifts the arm up to where he wants to place the ball right into the court. It’s been a huge improvement lately for my serve as well. Moving into the court is guaranteed.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Interesting. You think a bent elbow may be better. (I think I see your point physics-wise). Any pro examples? Like Sam Groth?

Karlovic and Nadal.

 

[EddieBrock]

this toss method saved my life.

we are NOT pros!! use this plz and dont over complicate..buy me some ice cream or bitcoins instead.

watch this 7 part series too:

i think we are done here.

if you go the other way you are only inviting problems. unless you really have a lot of time available this is the easiest and most efficient way to go.

That's the method I've been practicing. It's like I have unlearn this stupid flick that I do with my wrist even though I'm trying so hard to not do it. I've also got to fight to stop turning my shoulders to face the court. I think I'm going to continue with this and just practice it.

I think I'm going to change my setup so I start with my tossing arm more naturally bent instead of trying to keep is straight the whole time. That might be causing too much tension. So I'll have it bent holding the ball against the racket and then drop down and straighten it when it's against my leg.

 

[Kevo]

Interesting. You think a bent elbow may be better. (I think I see your point physics-wise). Any pro examples? Like Sam Groth?

I don't know if any pros are doing it that way or not. I developed that method many years ago for kids that just could not, for whatever reason, get the ball to drift into the contact spot with the straight arm method. It's painfully obvious after observing that enough times that a less complicated motion for the ball would be to simply go straight up, or very close to straight up. After trying it out myself, it's ridiculously simple if you are already coordinated and trained, I tried it out with a few kids who had issues. It improved the toss for every single kid I tried it with. Over time, some of them go back to the straight arm method, and as they get more coordinated that tends to work fine. The only impediment with the straight up method I've found is the old standards lack of focus and practice. Most people just can't seem to check their ego enough to work on the toss as a primary focus of their practice.

I still have some of that mentality myself. I've been trying to pay attention more in the past few weeks to what really causes me to make mistakes in matches and it's mostly mental. Besides forced errors of course, it's pretty much entirely caused by mental errors, not technique issues. This past weekend I found myself in a hole on my serve game and took just a moment to realize that I was being mentally lazy and not tossing like I should be. I managed to win two points in a row with aces just focusing on toss and what I wanted the serve path to look like. They weren't especially great serves, just solid with spin and really good placement.

My goal in my matches recently has been to be mentally present in every point. The last two weeks I haven't made it through two games. It's really hard for me, but I'm working on it and my percentage is certainly getting better. I'm hoping to figure out some good ways to bring some mental focus exercises into my lessons because I realize now that having 0 training in that regard when I was younger has handicapped me all these years.

 

[heninfan99]

 

[acintya]

That's the method I've been practicing. It's like I have unlearn this stupid flick that I do with my wrist even though I'm trying so hard to not do it. I've also got to fight to stop turning my shoulders to face the court. I think I'm going to continue with this and just practice it.

I think I'm going to change my setup so I start with my tossing arm more naturally bent instead of trying to keep is straight the whole time. That might be causing too much tension. So I'll have it bent holding the ball against the racket and then drop down and straighten it when it's against my leg.

continue..I really had some problems with the serve but now im quite successful. Toss is king.

 

[Fintft]

Before watching the vidoes, I can say that I'm with you on this one, locking the ellbow is crucial (and no flicking from the wrist):

Lock the elbow and the wrist if you can. What’s left to move? Shoulder and the ball only! Fewer moving parts less likely to go wrong.

And slower motion for the toss.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

It's like I have unlearn this stupid flick that I do with my wrist even though I'm trying so hard to not do it.

It's not "like you have to unlearn it"; it's "you absolutely do have to unlearn it". You've been flicking the wrist for thousands of reps so it will take a good many reps not flicking the wrist to overwrite the existing program.

As I previously posted, one way to possibly accelerate this re-learning is to restrain your wrist [say, with athletic tape or a cardboard tube] so that it CANNOT move. Then you don't have to think about not flicking it; you will physically be unable to do so. Imagine, for example, if you had broken your wrist and had a cast on that went from fingers to just below the elbow: how much wrist-flicking could you do? None.

After a bunch of repetitions, remove the restraint and try again. At some point, perhaps even immediately, you will likely revert to the old way. Then re-apply the restraint and repeat the cycle. Over time, you should find that you can go longer and longer without reversion and perhaps shorter and shorter with the restraint.

 

[Fintft]

It's not "like you have to unlearn it"; it's "you absolutely do have to unlearn it". You've been flicking the wrist for thousands of reps so it will take a good many reps not flicking the wrist to overwrite the existing program.

As I previously posted, one way to possibly accelerate this re-learning is to restrain your wrist [say, with athletic tape or a cardboard tube] so that it CANNOT move. Then you don't have to think about not flicking it; you will physically be unable to do so. Imagine, for example, if you had broken your wrist and had a cast on that went from fingers to just below the elbow: how much wrist-flicking could you do? None.

After a bunch of repetitions, remove the restraint and try again. At some point, perhaps even immediately, you will likely revert to the old way. Then re-apply the restraint and repeat the cycle. Over time, you should find that you can go longer and longer without reversion and perhaps shorter and shorter with the restraint.

I have a hard time unlearing how to flick the writs myself, after playing basketball for many years, but I think that by leading with a locked elbow, slowly, the wrist kinda locks in place as well.

 

[Curious]

I don't know if any pros are doing it that way or not. I developed that method many years ago for kids that just could not, for whatever reason, get the ball to drift into the contact spot with the straight arm method. It's painfully obvious after observing that enough times that a less complicated motion for the ball would be to simply go straight up, or very close to straight up. After trying it out myself, it's ridiculously simple if you are already coordinated and trained, I tried it out with a few kids who had issues. It improved the toss for every single kid I tried it with. Over time, some of them go back to the straight arm method, and as they get more coordinated that tends to work fine. The only impediment with the straight up method I've found is the old standards lack of focus and practice. Most people just can't seem to check their ego enough to work on the toss as a primary focus of their practice.

I still have some of that mentality myself. I've been trying to pay attention more in the past few weeks to what really causes me to make mistakes in matches and it's mostly mental. Besides forced errors of course, it's pretty much entirely caused by mental errors, not technique issues. This past weekend I found myself in a hole on my serve game and took just a moment to realize that I was being mentally lazy and not tossing like I should be. I managed to win two points in a row with aces just focusing on toss and what I wanted the serve path to look like. They weren't especially great serves, just solid with spin and really good placement.

My goal in my matches recently has been to be mentally present in every point. The last two weeks I haven't made it through two games. It's really hard for me, but I'm working on it and my percentage is certainly getting better. I'm hoping to figure out some good ways to bring some mental focus exercises into my lessons because I realize now that having 0 training in that regard when I was younger has handicapped me all these years.

Have you ever thought about the release point of the ball maybe being most crucial in terms of control rather than the elbow being bent or straight?
If the only moving part is the shoulder the hand makes a perfect arc in the air, right? Think about it, if you release the ball when the hand is at shoulder height, it needs to go up vertically. A little earlier than this it will fly away from you, a little too late it will come towards/behind you(orbital motion, physics).

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Have you ever thought about the release point of the ball maybe being most crucial in terms of control rather than the elbow being bent or straight?
If the only moving part is the shoulder the hand makes a perfect arc in the air, right? Think about it, if you release the ball when the hand is at shoulder height, it needs to go up vertically. A little earlier than this it will fly away from you, a little too late it will come towards/behind you(orbital motion, physics).

My hand does not travel in a perfect arc because as my arm is rising, my arm joint is also moving upward in the shoulder socket.

So instead of a perfect arc, it's partially rectangular which means my release point can be anywhere along the vertical part of the rectangle and I'll still get much the same result.

I'm also stretching my arm out of the socket a bit more the higher my arm gets to maintain the non-arc.

I've never thought about it in this detail but I think that's what is happening and why my toss tends to be stable.

 

[Curious]

My hand does not travel in a perfect arc because as my arm is rising, my arm joint is also moving upward in the shoulder socket.

So instead of a perfect arc, it's partially rectangular which means my release point can be anywhere along the vertical part of the rectangle and I'll still get much the same result.

I'm also stretching my arm out of the socket a bit more the higher my arm gets to maintain the non-arc.

I've never thought about it in this detail but I think that's what is happening and why my toss tends to be stable.

I realise it’s more complicated than what I thought. Not only what you said but also because the whole body and the legs usually moving to a degree while the tossing is happening.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I realise it’s more complicated than what I thought. Not only what you said but also because the whole body and the legs usually moving to a degree while the tossing is happening.

It also just occurred to me that i AM using my wrist: I'm not flicking it but as my arm is raised, my wrist bends to keep the tossing surface horizontal.

 

[Kevo]

Have you ever thought about the release point of the ball maybe being most crucial in terms of control rather than the elbow being bent or straight?
If the only moving part is the shoulder the hand makes a perfect arc in the air, right? Think about it, if you release the ball when the hand is at shoulder height, it needs to go up vertically. A little earlier than this it will fly away from you, a little too late it will come towards/behind you(orbital motion, physics).

Except it doesn't really work that way. Straight arm tossing pretty much requires the drift of the ball in some direction because if you release it so it goes straight up it's not rising straight up into your contact zone. My method tends to eliminate most drift, so it's simpler in that sense, but some kids still drift it a little with that method for various reasons.

In reality it doesn't matter how you want to throw it as long as you can get the ball into your contact zone at the right time, but it's not as simple as most people think it is. If a kid played enough throwing sports or ever learned to juggle, it will probably be fairly easy for them to get it intuitively, but for kids that haven't played a lot of sports coming into tennis, tossing is a skill they just don't tend to have.

 

[EddieBrock]

It's not "like you have to unlearn it"; it's "you absolutely do have to unlearn it". You've been flicking the wrist for thousands of reps so it will take a good many reps not flicking the wrist to overwrite the existing program.

As I previously posted, one way to possibly accelerate this re-learning is to restrain your wrist [say, with athletic tape or a cardboard tube] so that it CANNOT move. Then you don't have to think about not flicking it; you will physically be unable to do so. Imagine, for example, if you had broken your wrist and had a cast on that went from fingers to just below the elbow: how much wrist-flicking could you do? None.

After a bunch of repetitions, remove the restraint and try again. At some point, perhaps even immediately, you will likely revert to the old way. Then re-apply the restraint and repeat the cycle. Over time, you should find that you can go longer and longer without reversion and perhaps shorter and shorter with the restraint.

I think that restraining my wrist is a fantastic idea. With Thanksgiving it's kind of a tough time to play, but I'm going to try and go out this weekend and hit some serves with my wrist restrained while holding the ball sideways. If I'm just tossing in my house I can do it without the flick, but as soon as I go to hit an actual serve it comes back.

I remember in my last match I was trying so hard to stop it and was tossing the ball too low. Once I started tossing it high again the wrist flick came back. In practice someone even told me to stop it and recorded me and I could see I was still doing it. So restraining will hopefully speed up the process to unlearn this bad habit that I've been doing at least 10 years.