Which muscle is engaged on the serve

[Chas Tennis]

From the racquet drop until about the point of contact - the racquet is:

1. Pushed mostly with a forearm muscle
2. Pulled mostly with a tricep (?) muscle
3. Both?
4. Something else?

What muscle is the largest muscle attached to the arm?




(ask your phone, Oh, WOW!, Google can't get it!!)

 

[Shroud]

Pandora’s box had less in it than this thread will have different answers.

Wait. Didn’t pandoras box have hope?

 

[Dragy]

Wait. Didn’t pandoras box have hope?

Hope for your platform serve? TT has that for you!

 

[Jono123]

Probably easier to say which muscles aren't.

 

[Chas Tennis]

WARNING - Spinal Engine is not well understood here and Serge Gracovetsky has warned against unsafe spine rotation in his book, The Spinal Engine (1988).

This Sampras serve at 3:02 shows what happens in the forward direction before ISR and then joined with ISR. This camera angle at 3:02 changed my view of what 'shoulder-over-shoulder' really meant. The serve at 4:01 is very good too - and are we seeing a peek at Spinal Engine?

To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen, use the period and comma keys.

OP should single frame through this video, forth & back, forth & back, forth & back, .......and try not to see and understand. Actually, despite some motion blur, we can see some ISR directly by how the elbow shadows move.

What do we see?

 

[Shroud]

Hope for your platform serve? TT has that for you!

Omg. Its awful. Played sat and serve just got hammered. No pace at all. Legs suck. Got broken at 4-5 ugh.

Thinking of switching back. Or serving underhand. Maybe a new “which muscles engage for the underhand serve?”

 

[Dragy]

Maybe a new “which muscles engage for the underhand serve?”

If there was a pathetic spinatus muscle, that would be it!

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

in the spirit of this thread, likely overthinking it.. the serve is just a throw.

More accurately, a steep upward throwing motion. Typically employs a greater shoulder tilt, more coil and leg drive in a different direction than a conventional throw. Perhaps a flat OH smash is closer to a conventional throwing motion than a high level serve would be.

 

[Chas Tennis]

These myofascial slings pushed by the author of anatomy trains are largely pseudoscience

The author is a massage therapist with no actual medical background

I like what Tom Myers has to say. It also seems closely associated with Spinal Engine in that both emphasize a role of Fascia - to supply forces in a chain of connections - that I did not consider. But do now.

 

[yossarian]

I like what Tom Myers has to say. It also seems closely associated with Spinal Engine in that both emphasize a role of Fascia - to supply forces in a chain of connections - that I did not consider. But do now.

Just because you like it does not mean that it is factually true or clinically relevant. You and he both have no medical background. There is a ton of stuff out there which sounds cool (PRI, DNS, etc.) which is unfortunately just a bunch of fancy sounding garbage. If you scrutinize the information you will see that

It’s no surprise that the majority of proponents are fringe practitioners like chiros, trainers, and the like compared to people with actual medical training

 

[10sbeast888]

Just because you like it does not mean that it is factually true or clinically relevant. You and he both have no medical background. There is a ton of stuff out there which sounds cool (PRI, DNS, etc.) which is unfortunately just a bunch of fancy sounding garbage. If you scrutinize the information you will see that

It’s no surprise that the majority of proponents are fringe practitioners like chiros, trainers, and the like compared to people with actual medical training

so a legless man walking on his hips was the evidence of the 'spine engine' lmao...

let the legless man serve 120mph then I'll buy the theory.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Just because you like it does not mean that it is factually true or clinically relevant. You and he both have no medical background. There is a ton of stuff out there which sounds cool (PRI, DNS, etc.) which is unfortunately just a bunch of fancy sounding garbage. If you scrutinize the information you will see that

It’s no surprise that the majority of proponents are fringe practitioners like chiros, trainers, and the like compared to people with actual medical training

If you see anything in the Tom Meyers video that you disagree with, post it with the time of the video or use captions and quote specifically one issue.

Does Meyers' view of the function of fascia disagree with yours?

Is there a back functional line included in what you believe about the function of fascia?

Do you have have a link for some of what you were taught about fascia?

 

[yossarian]

If you see anything in the Tom Meyers video that you disagree with, post it with the time of the video or use captions and quote specifically one issue.

Does his view of the function of fascia disagree with yours?

Is there a back functional line with a fascia link in what you believe?

Do you have have a link for some of what you were taught about fascia?

Unfortunately I don’t have time for that but I encourage you instead to comb through the available literature and see if there is any empirical evidence to support his claims

I will say there is a reason why this information is fringe and not taught in mainstream curriculum

 

[Chas Tennis]

Unfortunately I don’t have time for that but I encourage you instead to comb through the available literature and see if there is any empirical evidence to support his claims

I will say there is a reason why this information is fringe and not taught in mainstream curriculum

No answers to any of those questions in post #64?

Meyers speaks for several minutes and you saw no differences between his comments and established fascia knowledge?

_____________________________________________

I love my old Kinesiology reference, by Thompson & Floyd, but now I want to hear much more about fascia and its function. Especially, after Gavin MacMillan made comments about over simplifying tennis strokes by working from a single joint motion viewpoint and not adequately considering the other body force connections. I need to know more about back functional lines, Spinal Engine, Anatomy Connections, and more.

Since sports is at the peak of body performance with exaggerated extreme motions, it is likely to be advanced in awareness/knowledge of body forces. There will be a lot of bad information included on the internet as many cut and paste.

Do you think that Sinner's training with a landmine has no bearing? I sure don't know because of uncertainty.

 

[Chas Tennis]

@Curious, what do you think about Spinal Engine?

 

[yossarian]

Do you think that Sinner's training with a landmine has no bearing? I sure don't know because of uncertainty.

His training is not in anyway related to fascia

I did not watch the video. I have no interest in hearing what he has to say. It is largely nonsense

Again I’d encourage you to scrutinize the info and look for the actual evidence to substantiate his claims. Assume the null until proven otherwise

You can fall into the rabbit hole of this fringe nonsense if all you’re looking for is a “cool” explanation and biomechanical jargon

Listen to this explanation of PRI taken from its website:


“The human body is not symmetrical. The neurological, respiratory, circulatory, muscular and vision systems are not the same on the left side of the body as they are on the right, and vice versa. They have different responsibilities, function, position and demands on them. This system asymmetry is a good thing and an amazing design. The human body is balanced through the integration of system imbalances. The torso, for example, is balanced with a liver on the right and a heart on the left. Extremity dominance is balanced through reciprocal function; i.e. left arm moves with right leg and vice versa.

Postural Restoration Institute® (PRI) credentialed professionals recognize these imbalances and typical patterns associated with system disuse or weakness that develops because of dominant overuse. This dominant overuse of one side of the body can develop from other system unilateral overuse. For example, if the left smaller diaphragm is not held accountable for respiration as the right is, the body can become twisted. The right diaphragm is always in a better position for respiration, because of the liver’s structural support of the right larger diaphragm leaflet. Therefore, the left abdominals are always important to use during reciprocal function, such as walking, to keep the torso balanced.”

Sounds interesting and biologically plausible to the layperson but it’s reductionist, overly complex, pseudoscientific garbage which fools gullible people into buying into it

 

[Curious]

@Curious, what do you think about Spinal Engine?

Sorry, I don’t know what it is. Haven’t been following the thread.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The word 'core' is often used in tennis discussions. But there is little useful information to follow. Same with 'Kinetic Chain Concept'.

Spinal Engine fills in a lot of information that appears related to 'core' and KCC 'segments' that are often said but these terms fall flat when it comes to any understanding gained.

Spinal Engine will replace the word 'core' and terms 'Kinetic Chain Concept' by adding useful information.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Spinal Engine will replace the word 'core' and terms 'Kinetic Chain Concept' by adding useful information.

Yes. And the drawer full of period and comma keys in your computer desk, will replace the ones you wear out watching ATP strokes at 240 fps. But no one will learn tennis watching that either.

 

[Curious]

The word 'core' is often used in tennis discussions. But there is little useful information to follow. Same with 'Kinetic Chain Concept'.

Spinal Engine fills in a lot of information that appears related to 'core' and KCC 'segments' that are often said but these terms fall flat when it comes to any understanding gained.

Spinal Engine will replace the word 'core' and terms 'Kinetic Chain Concept' by adding useful information.

You still didn’t explain what spinal engine means.

 

[ballmachineguy]

You still didn’t explain what spinal engine means.

I believe, just the way leading the racquet from one edge to the other through contact on the serve isn’t pronation but ISR, spinal engine is rotation due to rotation not being a very complicated concept. Something like that.

 

[10sbeast888]

is there a spinal transmission?

 

[ballmachineguy]

is there a spinal transmission?

Yes. It’s a manual. It’s why so many are bad at tennis.

 

[Chas Tennis]

You still didn’t explain what spinal engine means.

The thread The Tennis Serve - What's True? has many links to information on Spinal Engine Theory, including Serge Gracovetsky on Spinal Engine and Sabalenka's coach Gavin MacMillan in tennis interview Youtubes

The book by Serge Gracovetsky The Spinal Engine (1988) has information, but the cost is high. (it's just catching on!)

The Spinal Engine walk is easy to do, at least partly...with counter rotating of hips and shoulders lines...I think. What is needed are videos with timelines by certain coaches. I would expect that some of the college teams are into Spinal Engine. I do know how to make the videos once somebody can identify the bends and when they begin and end. Shirtless, with lighting to show the shadows of bends.......what a fun project! It's fustrating to know that it's just about pointing a camera at a shirtless ATP player.

You know it's amazing how the serve involved ISR as the main joint motion, but tennis research did not confirm it until 1995. ? Gerald Paterson, in a quality high speed video from 1919, is seen doing ISR. So the learning curves are hard to explain. Very interesting.

Serge Gracovetsky. See the man with no arms or legs walk. If I say the word "core" it does no convey the complexity of what the video shows. Later, the video parts of how the machine measures are not easy to follow.