Which of the following represents the highest clay level?

[AnOctorokForDinner]

RG fine.

Rome, I don't see how you can say that but to each his own.

The first two sets were 7-6 6-7 and I presume Federer would swing freer in the second set if he was closing onto victory, as it would be in BO3 format. That was before the Nadal mental complex, which that very match established for the first time (on clay at first).

I also take into account Nadal being a tougher match-up for Federer, so Federer would look a bit worse against him than Djokovic if both played at the same absolute level, so to speak.

And you dodged the point that Novak steamrolled Nads in MC 13 anyway. It's not like he even won more convincingly in Madrid than in Rome 11 lol...

That isn't relevant for 2006 vs 2011 since Djo didn't play MC, though I agree Djok's best at MC beats Fed's.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

My point has no barring on the rest of the discussion you're having really. Just saying that Nadal in the MC 2013 F was pretty poor - especially in that first set (where Djokovic was admittedly fantastic as well).

One interesting possibility with Nadal is that his level at clay masters events is not as high as at RG. Thiem for example has had some success against Rafa at the Masters events (straight-setting Nadal at Rome and Madrid for example) but getting rolled at RG.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

My point has no barring on the rest of the discussion you're having really. Just saying that Nadal in the MC 2013 F was pretty poor - especially in that first set (where Djokovic was admittedly fantastic as well).

Djokovic very nearly bagelled Nadal there, which couldn't have happened if Nadal wasn't subpar but also if Djokovic wasn't amazing - same thing as Hamburg 07 except Federer completed the bagel.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Let me wrap this up as I see it:

MC: Novak higher peak and consistency

Rome: equal one-time peak on account of 06 but Fed's second best is way worse, once we're past absolute peak Djok wins handily

Hamburg/Madrid: Fed higher peak and consistency (do remember Federer either won or lost to Nadal between 2004 and 2012)

RG: equal peak, Novak slightly more consistent (fully expecting him to pull off in the coming years)

 

[NatF]

Let me wrap this up as I see it:

MC: Novak higher peak and consistency

Rome: equal one-time peak on account of 06 but Fed's second best is way worse, once we're past absolute peak Djok wins handily

Hamburg/Madrid: Fed higher peak and consistency (do remember Federer either won or lost to Nadal between 2004 and 2012)

RG: equal peak, Novak slightly more consistent (fully expecting him to pull off in the coming years)

So overall Djokovic yes?

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

So overall Djokovic yes?

Of course. Anyone still saying otherwise is too much in love with Federer, it's not a sizeable gap yet but there it is.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

In regards to your claim yes Nadal is obviously better at Monte Carlo than Madrid (he's better there than pretty much anywhere)

Let's compare Nadal at Rome to him at Madrid (which was also part of the discussion) and actually in fact was the place where Fed's highest level match is you're using to compare to Djokovic in 2011 to.

Nadal has 5 Madrids, but one was the HC match vs Ljubicic in 2005; it switched from hard court to clay in 2009. There have been 10 Madrids contested on clay since then. Nadal has won 4 of them. 1 was actually the infamous "blue clay"

Nadal has won 5 Romes in that time.

Is that such a difference we can't even include Madrid in the conversation?

Anyways yes Nadal is more comfortable at Rome due to normal altitude etc.

The first two sets were 7-6 6-7 and I presume Federer would swing freer in the second set if he was closing onto victory, as it would be in BO3 format. That was before the Nadal mental complex, which that very match established for the first time (on clay at first).

I also take into account Nadal being a tougher match-up for Federer, so Federer would look a bit worse against him than Djokovic if both played at the same absolute level, so to speak.




That isn't relevant for 2006 vs 2011 since Djo didn't play MC, though I agree Djok's best at MC beats Fed's.

Alright fair enough

 

[NatF]

@AnOctorokForDinner and @NatF (just tagged you Nat for your opinion as well my friend )

In regards to your claim yes Nadal is obviously better at Monte Carlo than Madrid (he's better there than pretty much anywhere)

Let's compare Nadal at Rome to him at Madrid (which was also part of the discussion) and actually in fact was the place where Fed's highest level match is you're using to compare to Djokovic in 2011 to.

Nadal has 5 Madrids, but one was the HC match vs Ljubicic in 2005; it switched from hard court to clay in 2009. There have been 10 Madrids contested on clay since then. Nadal has won 4 of them. 1 of the losses was actually the infamous "blue clay", so it's really 4 of 9 if we're talking about Nad's level on the traditional red clay, as it was in the 2011 match. Credit to Federer for being the only blue clay champ ever though.

Nadal has won 5 Romes in that time.

Is that such a difference we can't even include Madrid in the conversation?

Anyways yes Nadal is more comfortable at Rome due to normal altitude etc.

But as I said anyway Djokovic in 2011 Rome is a direct comparison to Fed 2006 Rome.

Also the Rome win was similarly if not more so convincing than the Madrid one in 2011, so it's just simply more corroboration as to the level in those wins over Nadal, rather than something to be discounted because "Nadal isnt that good at Madrid" or whatever...

I think as Nadal's got older he's had to rely on serving bigger and being more aggressive off the ground, Madrid's quicker conditions have probably been relatively more helpful for him in his later career than Rome's more tradition clay court conditions. Up until the end of his peak in 2013 he had 4 Rome to 2 Madrid.

Also just as a footnote I'd say he was fortunate to win in 2014 as Nishikori was cleaning his clock before injury - I think it balances out the blue clay fiasco

 

[Towser83]

Djokovic was great in 2011 but all his wins over Nadal were best of 3. I think part of his wins were due to him mentally breaking down Nadal in IW and Miami. I actually think he played almost as good in Madrid 2009.

Stan was amazing at RG 2015 but never beat Nadal.

Fed almost beat Nadal in Rome 2006 and that was one match where I thought he outplayed Nadal over 5 sets and just failed on match points. Nadals actual losses over 5 sets on clay were not examples of him playing as well as he did in 2006.

What's interesting is the Fed vs Nadal in Hamburg in 2007 where he won and labelled Nadal is not on the list but him losing in Rome is. Djokovic beating Nadal at RG in 2015 is not on the list but him beating Nadal in masters is. I agree with this, because obviously the result doesnt always relate to the level.

If I was going to pick I'd go for Fed 2006, Djokovic 2011, stan 2015, 2009 fed wasnt that amazing for me but he played well. The others I'm a bit too young for.

I'd also put Frd vs Djokovic 2011 and Djokovic vs Nadal 2013

 

[mike danny]

I was talking about him supposedly being unbeatable on clay in general in 2006 not just RG. Federer breadsticked Nadal at 2006 RG. Nadal at his absolute best does not get breadsticked by anyone on clay including Djokovic or Federer.

Well, he was in the middle of an 81 match winning streak on clay, so he was as unbeatable as it gets.

 

[timnz]

First half of the first set of 2011 Roland Garros by Federer was an insanely high level. Pity one failed drop shot threw him off his rhythm

 

[Nadalgaenger]

in a single match, out of those listed :

federer rome 06 F ~ federer RG 2009 F

What about Federer 2011?

 

[DSH]

 

[abmk]

What about Federer 2011?

lesser than the ones I mentioned.

 

[RS]

Lies. Nadal played one of his greatest matches ever in the 2013 RG SF. Try again. The only reason you are not rating them where they need to be is because Djokovic was beating him routinely on clay and almost beat him at RG, something Federer can only dream about.

Better than 2007/2008/2010/2012 at RG?

 

[NoleFam]

Better than 2007/2008/2010/2012 at RG?

This is an old post and must have been right after I started posting here. I might word that a little differently now. Nadal wasn't even tested in 2010 and that one is overrated to me a bit because no one played a high enough level to push him except Almagro. I don't know where I rank that one tbh but I don't remember him playing a set like 2013 SF 5th set in 2010. 2013 is not better than 2008 and 2012, or 2007. That much is clear. It is better than 2006 and 2009 though.

 

[RS]

This is an old post and must have been right after I started posting here. I might word that a little differently now. Nadal wasn't even tested in 2010 and that one is overrated to me a bit because no one played a high enough level to push him except Almagro. I don't know where I rank that one tbh but I don't remember him playing a set like 2013 SF 5th set in 2010. 2013 is not better than 2008 and 2012, or 2007. That much is clear. It is better than 2006 and 2009 though.

I know your opinion would be different now as you stated that 2008 and 2012 were the two best on your thread but I sometimes bump up old threads

 

[ForehandCross]

Stan the Goddamn Man.

 

[NoleFam]

I know your opinion would be different now as you stated that 2008 and 2012 were the two best on your thread but I sometimes bump up old threads

My opinion is not different on this. Pretty much the same.

 

[aldeayeah]

In my opinion, the highest level of clay and to lose a match is Djokovic FO2013 SF while the highest level on clay and to win a match is Nadal FO2013 SF. I refer particularly to the 5th set.

2013 SF: the last two sets were absolutely nuts, but the first 3 were kinda lackluster.

 

[Madinolf]

Djokovic has a better clay resume than Federer and Wawrinka combined: same RG titles and more Masters titles.

 

[RS]

Djokovic has a better clay resume than Federer and Wawrinka combined: same RG titles and more Masters titles.

Stan did beat him in RG 2015 unless you want to say 2011 Djokovic is greater on clay?