Which past great would cause most problems for Serena prime to prime

[mattosgrant]

Out of the first tier all time greats- Navratilova, Graf, Court, Evert, Connolly, Wills, Lenglen, Seles, King, which would cause the most problems in a match up with Serena prime to prime.

I dont see Graf matching up well for some reason. Nor do I see Court.

Seles didnt play Serena when at her best but it is clear she has match up issues. Serena wasnt at her best yet either when they played.

I dont see King standing up to Serena's firepower either, as she is an attacker without the raw force of say Navratilova or Court.

Evert was great at problem solving and would eventually find some tactics to win some matches vs Serena, but I dont see her winning most over the long haul still.

So that leaves Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, Navratilova as the main candidates. I think it would be 1 of those 4 to give Serena the most problems. Connolly or Navratilova if I had to guess.

 

[Sander001]

I think Serena is the most physically gifted specimen the women's game has ever had. But her mental strength has lacked consistency, notice her career is littered with shock losses. Graf's speed, defense and court craft would give her nightmares.

 

[pc1]

Out of the first tier all time greats- Navratilova, Graf, Court, Evert, Connolly, Wills, Lenglen, Seles, King, which would cause the most problems in a match up with Serena prime to prime.

I dont see Graf matching up well for some reason. Nor do I see Court.

Seles didnt play Serena when at her best but it is clear she has match up issues. Serena wasnt at her best yet either when they played.

I dont see King standing up to Serena's firepower either, as she is an attacker without the raw force of say Navratilova or Court.

Evert was great at problem solving and would eventually find some tactics to win some matches vs Serena, but I dont see her winning most over the long haul still.

So that leaves Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, Navratilova as the main candidates. I think it would be 1 of those 4 to give Serena the most problems. Connolly or Navratilova if I had to guess.

I don't think Connolly could match Serena's power considering she was I believe 5'2".

It all depends on what racquet they use. Is it wood? Court may crush Williams then, who knows? I think Court with today's racquets would do very well but she would play differently. Wills was a great power player with a super slice serve. I think she actually had a semi-western type grip which was unusual for the time but she wasn't that fast so if Serena was playing well Serena, with her greater mobility may win.

Lenglen to my mind would be a superior version of Justine Henin and we know that Henin at her best was able to defeat Serena. Suzanne Lenglen was a ball machine with great control and good power plus her volley was superb. I think Lenglen would be very tough.

As of now I would also go with Graf or Navratilova. Both had the big serves to keep themselves in the match and yet they also had other super attacking weapons.

 

[BTURNER]

Navratilova would cause difficulty through the latter stages of the first set, because her style is significantly different from what Serena is used to. She's got that lefty hook serve and volley combo which is an adjustment for any player. Once Serena feels comfortable tagging the return, she's done for. Graf is a better bet in the long haul. She has the better return of the two, plus amazing foot speed and can use that forehand to keep her off balance, as well as that good low slice crosscourt to the two-hander.

If you take that modern racket out of Serena's hands, things get very complicated for her, and the list of possibilities is longer.

 

[mattosgrant]

I am surprised at Graf coming up so much in this thread. IMO Serena is a very bad match up for her.

 

[boredone3456]

1. Evert- Evert is mentally one of the toughest woman to ever play the game. Serena would not be able to simply beat her into submission. Evert would also force Serena to run, she would drop and pass or drop and lob her all over the court to force her out of position to open up the lines. Any loss would also just be a lesson for Evert who would come back just as hard the next time with a game plan so she wouldn't lose the same way twice if she could help it.

2. Graf- she has an amazing athlete in her own right. Her movement was stunning, Serena's wicked corner drives that are out of reach for many women today wouldn't be such a challenge for Graf. They would have some insane forehand battles. Grafs backhand could get her into trouble if she left it up, however I think she would learn pretty quickly to cut the slice low and add in topspin or flatten it out so she didn't get crushed.

3. Navrarilova/Court- I honestly really don't know how these 2 would do against Serena. Serena would certainly be able to pin them with the serve and smash a big enough return to slow the advance to the net. However Court and Martina were quick they would be almost at the net if they pulled the serve wide and took Serena off balance enough to get a step ahead. Serena has never really had to deal with Serve and Volley of that level before so I could see it being off putting for her as well. I think there would be a decent amount of tiebreakers largely because I don't see Serena stopping every charge and I could see Court and Martina hitting a LOT of chips at the net to force Serena off balance.

4. Mandlikova- Not an all time great however I would love to see a match with her and Serena at there best. Mandlikova was dangerous and erratic but her shots at their best drove both Evert and Martina nuts. She could hit hard, mix it up at net, and hold a baseline rally when she had to. I'm not gonna say she would dominate Serena but it would be fun to watch.

5. Goolagong- Erratic as anything but one of the most naturally gifted players ever. Could seemingly hit any shot from any angle...when she wanted to. I could see her being someone who Serena could either dominate or who would be a nightmare of a match, depending on which Evonne showed up on the day.

6. Seles- hard-hitting baseline battle anyone? Seles hit some supreme angles, and her power would match her with Serena. She wasn't a flake and wouldn't crack. However she would also probably be the one Serena could figure out the quickest as well.

 

[mattosgrant]

I dont think Hana would like playing someone who hits so extremely hard and is so athletic. She loved to be the shotmaker, stylistic genuis, and superior athlete out there, and being forced onto to defensive against someone both more powerful and more athletic, would likely see her just give up especialy being error prone and mentally fragile as it was.

While Evert was a great problem solver she was also not neccessarily to crack players whose game she simply didnt have an answer for in her arsenal. The biggest proof to this is her 13 match losing streak with Navratilova. Yes she eventually cracked into that rivalry a big again, but required Martina dropping her level slightly, and a complete overhaul of her fitness and game. Even then she could seemingly only win on clay until both got quite old and slowing down years later. Another is her 8 match losing streak to Graf, albeit later in her career. She also had a 5 or 6 match losing streak to Ausin, and mostly turned the match up around with Tracy's back problems and decline.

 

[boredone3456]

Evert was hurt, in part, by her refusal to give up her precious wooden racquet. I think Martina made the switch much earlier, and Tracy as well? I would need to look up exactly when they all switched. Not to use that as an excuse, but it didn't help matters for her any. If you give her and Serena similar racquets from the get go I think they would have some interesting matches...at least on hardcourts. Grass and Clay would be more skewed towards opposing strengths with Evert and Serena.

 

[pc1]

I dont think Hana would like playing someone who hits so extremely hard and is so athletic. She loved to be the shotmaker, stylistic genuis, and superior athlete out there, and being forced onto to defensive against someone both more powerful and more athletic, would likely see her just give up especialy being error prone and mentally fragile as it was.

While Evert was a great problem solver she was also not neccessarily to crack players whose game she simply didnt have an answer for in her arsenal. The biggest proof to this is her 13 match losing streak with Navratilova. Yes she eventually cracked into that rivalry a big again, but required Martina dropping her level slightly, and a complete overhaul of her fitness and game. Even then she could seemingly only win on clay until both got quite old and slowing down years later. Another is her 8 match losing streak to Graf, albeit later in her career. She also had a 5 or 6 match losing streak to Ausin, and mostly turned the match up around with Tracy's back problems and decline.

A lot of the 13 match streak is because Evert used a wood racquet and Navratilova the modern racquets of that time. Once Evert switched racquets she was competition even though she was declining.

Hana was brilliant when "on" her game. She was even superior to Navratilova. She had a big serve and volley and she could also take the ball on the rise for winners. It would be fun to see her play Serena. Serena isn't exactly invincible even though it sometimes seems that way. Remember that even Heather Watson was serving for the match against him and players like Henin, who is very small but powerful and versatile could beat her regularly.

 

[pc1]

Evert was hurt, in part, by her refusal to give up her precious wooden racquet. I think Martina made the switch much earlier, and Tracy as well? I would need to look up exactly when they all switched. Not to use that as an excuse, but it didn't help matters for her any. If you give her and Serena similar racquets from the get go I think they would have some interesting matches...at least on hardcourts. Grass and Clay would be more skewed towards opposing strengths with Evert and Serena.

You beat to it by a few seconds. lol.

 

[mattosgrant]

A lot of the 13 match streak is because Evert used a wood racquet and Navratilova the modern racquets of that time. Once Evert switched racquets she was competition even though she was declining.

Hana was brilliant when "on" her game. She was even superior to Navratilova. She had a big serve and volley and she could also take the ball on the rise for winners. It would be fun to see her play Serena. Serena isn't exactly invincible even though it sometimes seems that way. Remember that even Heather Watson was serving for the match against him and players like Henin, who is very small but powerful and versatile could beat her regularly.

Hana was not superior to Martina even both at their best IMO. Both playing their best Martina would still win 7 or 8 times out of 10 atleast, in addition to being a million times more consistent. Yes this does show Hana is brilliant at her best as most would be 10 out of 10, arguably even Evert for awhile.

The huge difference between Henin and Hana is Henin is an excellent defensive player. Along with that Henin is far more consistent and mentally sound, even if she isnt nearly as fluent or natural. Against Serena you need to be a very capable defensive player, in addition to very capable offensively, since you will be forced to play alot of defense to stay in many of the points. That is why Sharapova is useless vs Serena, and Davenport was useless vs a peak playing Serena (and usually lost to even a non version). Hana is not a good defensive player, despite being fairly fast. Hana likes to be on the offense all the time. It is what allows her to not only pay her more agressive and hard hit shots, but employ all her variety and trickery. Against Serena she wouldnt be. Given that she mentally caves in and starts going for too much when things dont go her way, I see that a nightmare match up for her. Atleast against Chris and sometimes even Martina she can dictate when at her best.

 

[pc1]

Hana was not superior to Martina even both at their best IMO. Both playing their best Martina would still win 7 or 8 times out of 10 atleast, in addition to being a million times more consistent. Yes this does show Hana is brilliant at her best as most would be 10 out of 10, arguably even Evert for awhile.

The huge difference between Henin and Hana is Henin is an excellent defensive player. Along with that Henin is far more consistent and mentally sound, even if she isnt nearly as fluent or natural. Against Serena you need to be a very capable defensive player, in addition to very capable offensively, since you will be forced to play alot of defense to stay in many of the points. That is why Sharapova is useless vs Serena, and Davenport was useless vs a peak playing Serena (and usually lost to even a non version). Hana is not a good defensive player, despite being fairly fast. Hana likes to be on the offense all the time. It is what allows her to not only pay her more agressive and hard hit shots, but employ all her variety and trickery. Against Serena she wouldnt be. Given that she mentally caves in and starts going for too much when things dont go her way, I see that a nightmare match up for her. Atleast against Chris and sometimes even Martina she can dictate when at her best.

Matt,

I've seen them play and when Hana raised her level in a match Navratilova was helpless imo. I'm not talking about over ten matches because of course Navratilova would win the majority but for sheer level of play within one match Hana could be and was superior. Any match between Hana and Navratilova depended on how Hana played which wasn't the case when Navratilova played anyone else.

Now of course you could be correct. It's all hypothetical but I do think Hana at her best would stand a fighting chance for one match. If you're talking about a series of matches Hana would have no shot to win the majority.

 

[mattosgrant]

Well I am talking about who could fare decently against Serena over a long series of matches. Who would have to be the best chance to have a real rivalry and do some considerable overall damage. Winning a match? Well even Bammer and Razanno can win a match. Serena isnt the most consistent great and never will be (not that is any disadvantage for her when compared to Hana, lol)

I respectfully disagree with you on Hana vs Martina. I agree Hana at her best is one of the few who conceivably could beat a really well playing Martina. However I have seen more matches Martina beat even a really well playing Hana than vice versa. Even in 85 Hana beat a really good Martina in the U.S Open final, but even that match Martina won 3 more games, more points, and hit more winners. Martina beat a really well playing Hana both at the Australian Open and WTA Championships, where Hana despite producing some of her best tennis lost, particularly the WTA Championships.

 

[Man of steel]

Prime or peak. Peak serena. No one.
Prime serena. Players who are both good offensively and defensively.
Serve and volleyers i think would be useless against serena. No offense to Nav. Serena is one of the best returners of all time in the womens game. And has some of the best passing shots in the game. Before you even think of moving towards the net serena's return will probably have flown by you.
To trouble serena you need to be strong defensively and offensively.
But firstly you need to return the biggest weapon in the game.
Her serve. If you can't get a good look in on her serve then you've already lost.
If she's having a decent serving day. She's already 60% away from winning the match.
A good serving day? 70-80% off of winning the match. A GOAT serving day and your toast. Plain and simple.

 

[pc1]

Prime or peak. Peak serena. No one.
Prime serena. Players who are both good offensively and defensively.
Serve and volleyers i think would be useless against serena. No offense to Nav. Serena is one of the best returners of all time in the womens game. And has some of the best passing shots in the game. Before you even think of moving towards the net serena's return will probably have flown by you.
To trouble serena you need to be strong defensively and offensively.
But firstly you need to return the biggest weapon in the game.
Her serve. If you can't get a good look in on her serve then you've already lost.
If she's having a decent serving day. She's already 60% away from winning the match.
A good serving day? 70-80% off of winning the match. A GOAT serving day and your toast. Plain and simple.

Guys,

What if Serena used a small wood racquet?

 

[Man of steel]

Guys,

What if Serena used a small wood racquet?

Pretty lame reasoning.
People keep saying athletes of yesterday would be even better with todays equipment than athletes of today.
However that works both ways.
The sport got better because the players got better. From the bottom to the top. Better competition all round. Better depth. Better atheticism. Especially in the womens game.
Give serena a wooden racket and a couple of months to learn and adapt how to use it and she would still dominate. Her increased athleticism, power and lack of weaknesses in her game would make her almost impossible to beat.

 

[pc1]

Pretty lame reasoning.
People keep saying athletes of yesterday would be even better with todays equipment than athletes of today.
However that works both ways.
The sport got better because the players got better. From the bottom to the top. Better competition all round. Better depth. Better atheticism. Especially in the womens game.
Give serena a wooden racket and a couple of months to learn and adapt how to use it and she would still dominate. Her increased athleticism, power and lack of weaknesses in her game would make her almost impossible to beat.

Actually you're reading too much into this. I was asking a question how the older players would compete if all would use a wood racquet. I just wanted opinions and not expressing one on Serena. For example I think Henin wood be better relatively speaking with wood many current players would be. I think Clijsters would be great also. I would tend to agree with you that Serena would be fabulous.These players are skilled players able to adapt.

I'm not convinced a top player like Sharapova who is about as unathletic as you can get would do well with wood for example. A player like Margaret Court or Navratilova would do far better with wood as I believe a Graf would also. Sharapova's power game would be lessened by the wood and she would have to rely on her skills and reflexes. Incidentally time doesn't always improve in sports. How much better is the Women's game now compared to let's say 2002 with Serena, Venus, Clijsters, Henin, Capriati, Davenport, Hingis and Mauresmo? That's 13 years ago and I think Serena may be better but none of the players compare to the ones I mentioned. Time doesn't always advance quality of play in sports although I do believe it generally does.

 

[California]

I think Serena is the most physically gifted specimen the women's game has ever had. But her mental strength has lacked consistency, notice her career is littered with shock losses. Graf's speed, defense and court craft would give her nightmares.

I agree. I think Graf would be the toughest match up for Serena. They played on tour and the head to head was 1 to 1. Graf had the speed, power,and consistency off the ground to trouble Serena. Graf also had one of the best serves in her day. I think Graf needs a more modern racquet though, she played with an 85 square inch racquet with an 18x20 string pattern, not very forgiving. I think the serve and net game of Martina N. is the next best bet...

 

[mattosgrant]

Actually you're reading too much into this. I was asking a question how the older players would compete if all would use a wood racquet. I just wanted opinions and not expressing one on Serena. For example I think Henin wood be better relatively speaking with wood many current players would be. I think Clijsters would be great also. I would tend to agree with you that Serena would be fabulous.These players are skilled players able to adapt.

I'm not convinced a top player like Sharapova who is about as unathletic as you can get would do well with wood for example. A player like Margaret Court or Navratilova would do far better with wood as I believe a Graf would also. Sharapova's power game would be lessened by the wood and she would have to rely on her skills and reflexes. Incidentally time doesn't always improve in sports. How much better is the Women's game now compared to let's say 2002 with Serena, Venus, Clijsters, Henin, Capriati, Davenport, Hingis and Mauresmo? That's 13 years ago and I think Serena may be better but none of the players compare to the ones I mentioned. Time doesn't always advance quality of play in sports although I do believe it generally does.

I agree Maria would be useless without wood. Serena would still be formidable though, and her serve would eclipse any other women at any given time with any racquet. Her power would be somewhat negated, so it would be interesting to see how she handles that, but she has the whole toolbox in skills when needed, and unlike Maria is very very athletic (far more athletic than say Chris Evert for instance).

 

[boredone3456]

Serena would go through a difficult initial transition to wood I believe. It would cut her power and I could see Serena initially having a lot of mishits because of the smaller racket head. She would need time to practice and adapt around that. I think some modern players would have an easier time of that then Serena....much like Evert struggled switching FROM wood.

I don't think it would hurt her game, but she would need to adapt several aspects of her game and I think she would need to learn to tap into her volley skills more often to avoid misfires from the baseline.

 

[Cenarius]

None.

 

[pc1]

Serena would go through a difficult initial transition to wood I believe. It would cut her power and I could see Serena initially having a lot of mishits because of the smaller racket head. She would need time to practice and adapt around that. I think some modern players would have an easier time of that then Serena....much like Evert struggled switching FROM wood.

I don't think it would hurt her game, but she would need to adapt several aspects of her game and I think she would need to learn to tap into her volley skills more often to avoid misfires from the baseline.

I would tend to agree with that. The key to me is that I think her serve would still be very effective so she'd still be very hard to break.

 

[BTURNER]

I would tend to agree with that. The key to me is that I think her serve would still be very effective so she'd still be very hard to break.

see below

 

[BTURNER]

s a wood player, I see her playing much like a two handed version of Court with an all court game and a reliance on the serve/ volley with her first delivery. she does not have the discipline or the temperament to play like Evert or the pure impetuous nature of Navratilova. She'd give away too many points at inopportune times for pure baseline and she is not agile enough to defend at net a la Martina.

 

[pc1]

I assume you're talking about Serena. Perhaps you're right. I have to think about that but right now I'm outside sitting at an outdoor court in 90 plus degree temperatures so I don't want to elaborate now.

 

[Oh Definitely]

Peak Seles would crush Serena with her wicked return of serve, intense angles and depth of shot.

Both hitting for the lines, it would be a great match-up.

 

[mattosgrant]

Crush Serena? Wow you are pretty confident. IMO best case scenario for Seles would be an even split on hard courts and carpet, winning mostly on clay, and losing on grass. IMO though Serena is a bad match up for Seles (even peak Seles) and would do better than that. Still thanks for a new idea to this thread. It is an intersting thing to ponder what it might look like. They did play 5 times when both were clearly not peak and Serena leads 4-1, although Serena was probably still the closer of the two if having to choose. Well minus the first meeting where 15 year old Serena beat Seles in 3 sets, winning the last 2 sets 6-1, 6-1, but playing someone for the first time who you dont expect to be that good is always hard, so I will give a pass on that one.

 

[Mr.Lob]

The biggest problem Serena would face from the all-time goats... is they wouldn't choke in the big moments like the current crop of mugs do.

 

[boredone3456]

The only people I could see delivering a beat down to Serena would be Evert or Graf on clay on a given day. I don't think that would be the norm, but I think that would be the time Serena would be in the most danger of losing fast. She would be competitive with everyone on Harcourt and grass....carpet that I don't know Serena didn't play as much on that for me to judge.

There was a thread here a while back about crating a fantasy tournament with all time greats and predicting the winners...I'll have to dig it up if I can find it