Which pros use the 'western' 1HBH?

[Nanshiki]

Any idea which pros use the western/semi-western one-handed backhand grip?

I have read that Henin does, and I suspect that Blake probably and possibly Gasquet does too... but who else uses it?

(for the record, it's the 1HBH grip that is a semi-western forehand flipped around)

Federer is thought to use the eastern 1HBH, but sometimes I've gotta wonder...

 

[kishnabe]

Gustavo Kuerten

 

[Jonny S&V]

...I suspect that Blake probably and possibly Gasquet does too...

Lol, not really even close... Blake uses a straight eastern, maybe closer to continental, and Gasquet uses an extreme eastern backhand. As for true SW backhands, Ivan Navarro (when he's not barreling in on the net) hits a SW backhand.

 

[Nanshiki]

Well, what's the difference between a semi-western an extreme eastern backhand? An 1/8th turn? If you switch from a Head handle to a Wilson handle you're probably going to be using the wrong one at first, anyway...

I figured Gasquet used the SW 1HBH because he generates pretty impressive spin instead of hitting it flat like say, Federer.

How are you so sure that Blake uses such a flat BH grip when he uses a SW forehand?

 

[darthpwner]

Any idea which pros use the western/semi-western one-handed backhand grip?

I have read that Henin does, and I suspect that Blake probably and possibly Gasquet does too... but who else uses it?

(for the record, it's the 1HBH grip that is a semi-western forehand flipped around)

Federer is thought to use the eastern 1HBH, but sometimes I've gotta wonder...

Blake definitely uses closer to continental on his bh. Federer's is traditional eastern. Gasquet has extreme eastern. Guga and Henin have SW backhands. Dudi Sela also has a SW backhand. Does anyone actually have a western backhand grip, which is an eastern forehand grip on the other face of the racket, bevel 6?

 

[darthpwner]

Well, what's the difference between a semi-western an extreme eastern backhand? An 1/8th turn? If you switch from a Head handle to a Wilson handle you're probably going to be using the wrong one at first, anyway...

I figured Gasquet used the SW 1HBH because he generates pretty impressive spin instead of hitting it flat like say, Federer.

How are you so sure that Blake uses such a flat BH grip when he uses a SW forehand?

extreme eastern means your base knuckle is on bevel 7 but the V of your hand is still on bevel 6.

 

[supersmash]

Gustavo Kuerten

Right on the money.

Him, and Flippo Volandri.... ya know, before the ban.

 

[Nanshiki]

extreme eastern means your base knuckle is on bevel 7 but the V of your hand is still on bevel 6.

Gee, that's totally not vague. Especially when you consider there are only four bevels on a racquet. The other faces are sides, not bevels. Hence the term 'beveled edge.'

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bevels

a surface that does not form a right angle with adjacent surfaces.

It's easier to just talk about grips as turns from Eastern, unless you have DETAILED pictures (drawings are better though) or are talking to total beginners.


http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/instruction.aspx?articleid=1337&zoneid=16

This is my favorite reference but it doesn't list the 'special' 2HBH grips besides the most basic one. Plus I think they should have mentioned the Hawaiian grip just for completion. And according to this, the semi-western 1HBH IS the extreme eastern 1HBH. So I was apparently right about Gasquet all along?

I also seriously doubt that anyone uses the reversed Eastern FH as a backhand... since most players who want that much spin are going to use Western forehands, and most WHF players don't use one handers anyway.

 

[Jonny S&V]

I figured Gasquet used the SW 1HBH because he generates pretty impressive spin instead of hitting it flat like say, Federer.

How are you so sure that Blake uses such a flat BH grip when he uses a SW forehand?

You should look at pics, they tend to tell more stories than the shot result.

Again, assumptions are typically worthless (especially the ones that can be proven right or wrong by simply google imaging something). Blake uses an eastern/weak eastern grip, fin.

PS, sorry if I sound rude/ticked, I'm just getting tired of stubborn board posters... :neutral:

 

[Nanshiki]

They aren't assumptions, they're educated guess. And I was apparently right about Gasquet.

 

[Jonny S&V]

They aren't assumptions, they're educated guess. And I was apparently right about Gasquet.

If you turned Gasquet's backhand grip over, it wouldn't a semi-western forehand, it would be in-between a western and a semi-western, therefore making it an extreme eastern backhand:

If you turned Kuerten's backhand over, it would be a semi-western forehand, making his a semi-western backhand:

 

[Nanshiki]

All semantics. One person's 'extreme eastern' is another person's semi-western. The basic idea is that you're using a grip designed to generate more spin and control than a traditional flat-hitting eastern backhand.

I mean, all grips are essentially just a knob on a dial of spin versus depth. Turn the knob to 1 and it's continental, turn it to 11 (it only goes to 10) and it's Hawaiian. The same goes for backhands but in that case the knob only goes half as far...

And for the record, Gasquet's grip looks like a semi-western forehand tuned for more depth (closer to Eastern), whereas Kuerten's looks like a semi-western tuned for more spin (closer to western).

 

[Jonny S&V]

All semantics. One person's 'extreme eastern' is another person's semi-western. The basic idea is that you're using a grip designed to generate more spin and control than a traditional flat-hitting eastern backhand.

I mean, all grips are essentially just a knob on a dial of spin versus depth. Turn the knob to 1 and it's continental, turn it to 11 (it only goes to 10) and it's Hawaiian. The same goes for backhands but in that case the knob only goes half as far...

And for the record, Gasquet's grip looks like a semi-western forehand tuned for more depth (closer to Eastern), whereas Kuerten's looks like a semi-western tuned for more spin (closer to western).

Ok... :roll:

 

[Lsmkenpo]

They aren't assumptions, they're educated guess. And I was apparently right about Gasquet.

You are better off keeping your so called educated guesses to yourself because you are pretty much wrong in all of them.

From Federer hitting a flat backhand....... to spin being determined by what
grip bevel is used on the racquet.

 

[Nanshiki]

By flat I mean the trajectory. I know he has spin on it, but it's not 'loopy' like Gasquet or Henin's.

Obviously I'm not talking about Jimmy Connors flat, here.

 

[Nanshiki]

Ok... :roll:

If you're going to act like that, I'll just say that I trust tennis.com's definition over your arbitrary definition. Semi-western = extreme eastern. Period.

 

[Jonny S&V]

If you're going to act like that, I'll just say that I trust tennis.com's definition over your arbitrary definition. Semi-western = extreme eastern. Period.

Then Federer hits a semi-western on his forehand typically?

 

[Nanshiki]

Maybe he does. Federer works in mysterious ways. And I was talking about backhands.

The definitions get a bit more vague when it comes to forehands...

 

[Jonny S&V]

And I was talking about backhands.

The definitions get a bit more vague when it comes to forehands...

You're working on the same bevels though, just reversed.

 

[Nanshiki]

Not exactly. With 1HBH's you have essentially three bevels to choose from for the basics, and for forehands you have four.

If you assume that each grip has a 1/16th turn variant (ie, conti, conti-eastern, eastern, extreme eastern, semi-western, heavy-semi, full western),then you've essentially doubled the number of grip combinations.... which means that you have two more choices for forehand than you do backhand.

This is ignoring the 'Hawaiian grip' FH (backwards continental backhand) and "full western backhand" (backwards eastern forehand) because they're just so rare and impractical that it's more of a hindrance to your game than any sort of help. Sort of like the number of possible two-handed forehands.

...Just imagine if someone used a continental backhand as their backhand BACKWARDS. The spin would be nuts but it would fly into the ground.

 

[Jonny S&V]

Not exactly. With 1HBH's you have essentially three bevels to choose from for the basics, and for forehands you have four.

If you assume that each grip has a 1/16th turn variant (ie, conti, conti-eastern, eastern, extreme eastern, semi-western, heavy-semi, full western),then you've essentially doubled the number of grip combinations.... which means that you have two more choices for forehand than you do backhand.

Hmm, 7 backhand grips off the top of my head:

Continental: Fed's slice
Conti-eastern: Grigor Dimitrov
Eastern: James Blake
Extreme Eastern: Gasquet & Mauresmo
Semi-western: Henin
Heavy-semi: Kuerten
Full western: Ok, I lied, but 6 outta 7's good right?

I personally use an extreme eastern, and have dabbled with the semi-western, so I'm trying to not just blow smoke here. I also forgot to include Mauresmo in this, but she switches her grip more than other players (such as Gasquet) depending on the shot:

^Extreme Eastern^

 

[paulorenzo]

They aren't assumptions, they're educated guess. And I was apparently right about Gasquet.

wrong, man, wrong. listen to everyone in this thread aside from yourself.

 

[paulorenzo]

Not exactly. With 1HBH's you have essentially three bevels to choose from for the basics, and for forehands you have four.

If you assume that each grip has a 1/16th turn variant (ie, conti, conti-eastern, eastern, extreme eastern, semi-western, heavy-semi, full western),then you've essentially doubled the number of grip combinations.... which means that you have two more choices for forehand than you do backhand.

This is ignoring the 'Hawaiian grip' FH (backwards continental backhand) and "full western backhand" (backwards eastern forehand) because they're just so rare and impractical that it's more of a hindrance to your game than any sort of help. Sort of like the number of possible two-handed forehands.

...Just imagine if someone used a continental backhand as their backhand BACKWARDS. The spin would be nuts but it would fly into the ground.

first off, there are 8 bevels, and i use the term "bevels" since that is the general consensus on what the faces/planes on the racquet handle are called, on a racquet handle. count them, 8. they are counted clockwise, starting with the top bevel, 1, until reaching bevel 8.

 

[Jonny S&V]

first off, there are 8 bevels, and i use the term "bevels" since that is the general consensus on what the faces/planes on the racquet handle are called, on a racquet handle. count them, 8. they are counted clockwise, starting with the top bevel, 1, until reaching bevel 8.

You've gotta remember, he's not going off of standard tennis knowledge. You have to play his game for him to get it. :twisted:

 

[paulorenzo]

They aren't assumptions, they're educated guess. And I was apparently right about Gasquet.

now, on to my point, what grip does gasquet seem to be using on this backhand? somewhere between eastern and strong eastern, but not even close to semi western.

 

[Nanshiki]

FWIW, if you change from say a Head to a Wilson and try to hold the racquet the same way, you're going to be using the wrong grip. And if you're off by 1/16th of a turn, you're going to be using a different grip, too!

I personally don't think they're are that many kinds of backhand grips... just a slight adjustment and you're using something else. The forehand is different because it's the default grip. Since you have to switch to a backhand grip (unless you use pure SW on both sides), you're going to be off by probably up to 1/16th of a turn either way. At that point you're just arbitrarily labeling them. For all practical purposes, there are really four basic 1HBHs and 5 basic 1HBHs. Anything in between is just going to be a slight adjustment from the 'standard' grip because of personal preference of because of the kind of shot you want to make. IE, you might use a 'slight' semi-western as your basic forehand, but you turn it towards Eastern for depth and you turn it towards SW for spin. Then again, this tends to lead to bad technique, according to one lady pro I talked too at a challengers...

Personally I use a mild SW forehand (but it's still SW because I'm looking for spin and started out with an SW) and a mild SW/EE backhand (SW because I can't hit a consistent eastern BH for the life of me).

 

[Nanshiki]

Those two diagrams are so inconsistent, so vague, and so wrong it's not even funny.

If you're going to use numbers for all of the sides of the handle, call them faces instead of bevels and sides. At least this is correct English.
And if you're going to try to explain grips to someone, you have to use diagrams that actually have context.

 

[Nanshiki]

now, on to my point, what grip does gasquet seem to be using on this backhand? somewhere between eastern and strong eastern, but not even close to semi western.

My apologizes if I didn't scour every picture on the internet and studied it at length before I made my guess about his grip. I was going off the whole "strong knowledge of tennis and physics" instead of some still picture from god-knows-when.

 

[volleynets]

Those two diagrams are so inconsistent, so vague, and so wrong it's not even funny.

If you're going to use numbers for all of the sides of the handle, call them faces instead of bevels and sides. At least this is correct English.
And if you're going to try to explain grips to someone, you have to use diagrams that actually have context.

You started this thread to ask a question and then proceed to argue with everyone who gives you an answer

Look at that picture. Gasquet is holding an exact eastern/ extreme eastern backhand there as seen by the location of his index finger knuckle.

 

[paulorenzo]

Those two diagrams are so inconsistent, so vague, and so wrong it's not even funny.

If you're going to use numbers for all of the sides of the handle, call them faces instead of bevels and sides. At least this is correct English.
And if you're going to try to explain grips to someone, you have to use diagrams that actually have context.

in tennis terminology, they are referred to as bevels, i bet you for every source that you find that call them "faces" i can find 5 that call them bevels.

bevels is such a common word when referring to grips and/or handles in tennis, that it makes me question how much knowledge you have of the sport.

 

[Nanshiki]

I asked a question that was answered by people arguing about arbitrary grip names for slightly variances in the same technique.

Tennis.com = more authority than any of you.

And FWIW it looks like a regular Eastern in that particular picture, which could feasibly be from four-five years ago.

 

[Nanshiki]

in tennis terminology, they are referred to as bevels, i bet you for every source that you find that call them "faces" i can find 5 that call them bevels.

bevels is such a common word when referring to grips and/or handles in tennis, that it makes me question how much knowledge you have of the sport.

Makes me wonder how much knowledge you have of English.

Then again, everyone seems to think that "dampener" is the right word for damper, so I guess fifty million idiots can't be wrong.

 

[paulorenzo]

My apologizes if I didn't scour every picture on the internet and studied it at length before I made my guess about his grip. I was going off the whole "strong knowledge of tennis and physics" instead of some still picture from god-knows-when.

it was on the first result page in google images when i searched for "gasquet grip."

elementary. i also apologize for your research deficiency syndrome.

 

[paulorenzo]

Makes me wonder how much knowledge you have of English.

Then again, everyone seems to think that "dampener" is the right word for damper, so I guess fifty million idiots can't be wrong.

aside from capitalization, my sentences were composed nicely within the rules and guidelines of the english language. the only exception is when i write satirical comments to idiot posters - in those cases, i try to make sentences as simple as possible for them. fool.

 

[tarkowski]

If you turned Gasquet's backhand grip over, it wouldn't a semi-western forehand, it would be in-between a western and a semi-western, therefore making it an extreme eastern backhand:

If you turned Kuerten's backhand over, it would be a semi-western forehand, making his a semi-western backhand:

Exactly! To me, this is the difference. And though it may seem subtle on 'paper', in practice, it feels quite different - especially with a low-ball. To me, the extreme eastern is closer to eastern on the low-ball.... very difficult to pull off with SW.

 

[paulorenzo]

Makes me wonder how much knowledge you have of English.

Then again, everyone seems to think that "dampener" is the right word for damper, so I guess fifty million idiots can't be wrong.

how is this relevant to anything i've posted in this thread? i'm sorry that you think gasquet hits with a semi-western backhand, when he clearly doesn't. i'm also sorry that you think james blake uses a semi-western backhand grip just because you believe he uses a semi-western forehand.

 

[Jonny S&V]

Exactly! To me, this is the difference. And though it may seem subtle on 'paper', in practice, it feels quite different - especially with a low-ball. To me, the extreme eastern is closer to eastern on the low-ball.... very difficult to pull off with SW.

Yup. Too bad some people can't understand logic and reasoning backed up by evidence... :neutral:

 

[paulorenzo]

I asked a question that was answered by people arguing about arbitrary grip names for slightly variances in the same technique.

Tennis.com = more authority than any of you.

And FWIW it looks like a regular Eastern in that particular picture, which could feasibly be from four-five years ago.

are you referring to this?

even while evidence is beating its presence into your face, you still conjure up a way to try to deny it's existence, metaphorically speaking. he is using something that isn't a semi western. whether it is an eastern or a strong eastern, his grip is still not a semi-western. therefore, you were still wrong when you tried to argue your points and "educated guesses" about shot trajectory and spin in defense of your statement about gasquet using a semi-western backhand. he doesn't. end.

 

[Nanshiki]

Yes, I was wrong. Apparently he generates excellent spin for someone with an Eastern forehand.

My educated guess came from watching his strokes and the ball, not staring at pictures on the internet. I suppose it's my fault for posting before doing research.

You guys need to chill out.

 

[Nanshiki]

how is this relevant to anything i've posted in this thread? i'm sorry that you think gasquet hits with a semi-western backhand, when he clearly doesn't. i'm also sorry that you think james blake uses a semi-western backhand grip just because you believe he uses a semi-western forehand.

Thought. Past tense. Apparently I was wrong. I was guessing, albeit making those guesses based on a knowledge of their playing styles and watching recent matches instead of pictures from several years ago.

 

[Nanshiki]

how is this relevant to anything i've posted in this thread? i'm sorry that you think gasquet hits with a semi-western backhand, when he clearly doesn't. i'm also sorry that you think james blake uses a semi-western backhand grip just because you believe he uses a semi-western forehand.

My point is that the "general consensus" of tennis fans and even tennis companies isn't always right. In fact it's very often mistaken.

And my reference to your English had more to do with not understanding the definition of "bevel." Half of the faces of a tennis racquet cannot be, by definition, bevels. In fact, if you had a custom square or round handle there would be no bevels at all.

 

[paulorenzo]

Yes, I was wrong. Apparently he generates excellent spin for someone with an Eastern forehand.

My educated guess came from watching his strokes and the ball, not staring at pictures on the internet. I suppose it's my fault for posting before doing research.

You guys need to chill out.

yeh it's cool man. however, you seemed to be the one that initially got agitated by posters who gave you answers that you didn't agree with.

i also used to think both gasquet and wawrinka hit with semi-western backhands. ever since finding out that they both use less extreme grips than the semi, i've found myself reverting back closer to a strong eastern and a regular eastern, depending on stroke.

 

[Nanshiki]

It was less about the answer and more about the definition of the grip.

I tried to move back to the Eastern because of Federer but then when I started to watch Henin again, I went back to SW/EE (it varies) which was my original grip, and I feel like my level of play went back up to where it was, if not better than before... I guess I should ignore people describing a technique as "intended for accomplished players," "extreme," "requiring excessive strength" (according to Bolleteri's handbook) or "impractical for low balls" if it works fine for me.

I used to not know whether to stick with one-hander or two-hander, but I think now I finally have my one-hander stable...for now.

 

[paulorenzo]

My point is that the "general consensus" of tennis fans and even tennis companies isn't always right. In fact it's very often mistaken.

And my reference to your English had more to do with not understanding the definition of "bevel." Half of the faces of a tennis racquet cannot be, by definition, bevels. In fact, if you had a custom square or round handle there would be no bevels at all.

oh yes of course, especially tennis companies. but within the context of tennis, "bevel" is a more frequently used term for planes on the racquet handle than any other word, including faces. it becomes acceptable because it is used my almost everyone in a certain context. note: not right, but acceptable.

much like the term "driving to the basket" in basketball. no one is driving anything into a basket. dribbling, sure. a hoop with a net attached, sure. but there is no driving, and there is not a basket (anymore). i guess that's just how i would justify it.

 

[Nanshiki]

Actually I just realized that technically every side is a bevel because none of them are at right angles to the adjacent side...

HAH.

Although the corners are most definitely the BEVELED parts because if they didn't cut the corners it would be a rectangle/square.

 

[paulorenzo]

It was less about the answer and more about the definition of the grip.

I tried to move back to the Eastern because of Federer but then when I started to watch Henin again, I went back to SW/EE (it varies) which was my original grip, and I feel like my level of play went back up to where it was, if not better than before... I guess I should ignore people describing a technique as "intended for accomplished players," "extreme," "requiring excessive strength" (according to Bolleteri's handbook) or "impractical for low balls" if it works fine for me.

I used to not know whether to stick with one-hander or two-hander, but I think now I finally have my one-hander stable...for now.

agree, do what works. i also recently found a groove with my one hander. it's a 'more drive, less flick' type of ordeal which is working great. oh and the bolleteri point, you hit the nail on the head with what you said, at least what i thought you were implying. i always got the impression bolleteri leaned towards the two-handed side of things and getting the best results possible as of right now in the least difficult manner and hoping the success carries over into your game when you start facing harder opponents. i always thought it was better to teach a solid, well varied base and letting the game develop at a healthy pace while reaping the benefits later. right?

 

[tarkowski]

Here's another source, yet, with still more terms. In it,

Full Eastern = very close to if not the Extreme Eastern we've been discussing (slide1)
Western = SemiWestern we've been talking about (slide4)

http://tennis.about.com/od/forehandbackhand/ss/bh1gripclosewt.htm

I agree, I don't think the terms matter much... as long as there is something to communicate the distinction.

Have fun!

 

[OliverSimon]

I think Acasuso uses a "western" 1HBH

 

[Jonny S&V]

I think Acasuso uses a "western" 1HBH

Yes he does.

 

[Nanshiki]

Here's another source, yet, with still more terms. In it,

Full Eastern = very close to if not the Extreme Eastern we've been discussing (slide1)
Western = SemiWestern we've been talking about (slide4)

http://tennis.about.com/od/forehandbackhand/ss/bh1gripclosewt.htm

I agree, I don't think the terms matter much... as long as there is something to communicate the distinction.

Have fun!

I don't like those pictures. But I've seen them before. They're too vague and not particularly well-taken. You pretty much have to guess where the exact bevel edges are (you should use a leather grip, or a racquet with no grip for pictures like this), it's not labeled to show exactly where is base knuckle is...