Which statement is more absurd, "peak Djokovic at AO is better than peak Nadal at RG" or "Pete Sampras benefitted from a weak era"?

Which statement is more absurd?

  • peak Djokovic at AO is better than peak Nadal at RG

    Votes: 29 50.0%
  • Pete Sampras benefitted from a weak era

    Votes: 11 19.0%
  • 50/50

    Votes: 8 13.8%
  • Neither is absurd

    Votes: 10 17.2%

  • Total voters
    58

Megafanoftennis100

Professional
Also, guys, I don't think we should be looking at their entire career records at their home Slams to determine peak levels. Because obviously, both players have won their home Slams many times while not being at their peak.
For example, you cannot say that 2022 Rafa is as good as 2008 Rafa at RG just because both won the tournament. And likewise for comparing 2023 Djokovic to 2011 Djokovic.
 

pirhaksar

Professional
Have you seen Phelps medals?
I have but I am not quite sure there was that much of an inevitability in Phelps winning or even Usain for that matter. Perhaps you are right, I am just carried away by the 14 FOs. But arguably he shud be there in that mix with Phelps and Bolt.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
I have but I am not quite sure there was that much of an inevitability in Phelps winning or even Usain for that matter. Perhaps you are right, I am just carried away by the 14 FOs. But arguably he shud be there in that mix with Phelps and Bolt.

Nadal is certainly up there with the very best, no question about it. Its just a big statement to make that he is greatest across all sports, many others have strong claims also.

In tennis, there is no doubt it is Nadal.
 

pirhaksar

Professional
Nadal is certainly up there with the very best, no question about it. Its just a big statement to make that he is greatest across all sports, many others have strong claims also.

In tennis, there is no doubt it is Nadal.
That’s fair. Also to be clear, I meant to only compare dominance aspect. Don’t want to equate that to greatest ever in the sport.
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic had moments when he was close to winning AO without dropping a set. 2011 when he dropped only 1 set and 2023 when he also only dropped 1 set.
But here is the thing, as I have said before, top players usually play below their best level in the earlier rounds of Slams to save their best tennis for the 2nd week of the tournament. E.g. when we compare Nadal's 2007 Wimbledon run to Alcaraz's 2023 Wimbledon run, Alcaraz's 1st week was more impressive, but Rafa's 2nd week was way more impressive than Alcaraz's 1st, hence giving 2007 Rafa the edge.
Therefore, the more reasonable comparison would be their performances in the 2nd week of Slams.
Close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades. It’s irrelevant that Joker only dropped a set 3x to win the AO when RAFA has won RG 4x without dropping a set. You can pick any round 1R-F and RAFA would have peaked higher. As far as the Wimby comparison goes, the guys in 07 played better than the guys in 2023.
 
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RS

Bionic Poster
Who played at a higher level?

1. Federer RG 11 SF or Del Potro USO 09 final
2. Djokovic RG 11 SF or Djokovic AO 19 final
3. Djokovic AO 19 final or Nadal RG 13 final
4. Federer AO 12 SF or Del Potro RG 09 SF
5. Nadal RG 22 QF or Nadal USO 11 final
 

Megafanoftennis100

Professional
Who played at a higher level?

1. Federer RG 11 SF or Del Potro USO 09 final
2. Djokovic RG 11 SF or Djokovic AO 19 final
3. Djokovic AO 19 final or Nadal RG 13 final
4. Federer AO 12 SF or Del Potro RG 09 SF
5. Nadal RG 22 QF or Nadal USO 11 final
1. Federer
2. 2019 Djokovic
3. 50/50
4. 50/50
5. 2011 Nadal
 
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Megafanoftennis100

Professional
OK, how about my turn:

Who played at a higher level?

1. Raonic AO 2019 R16 vs Nadal AO 2009 final
2. Djokovic USO 2011 final vs Federer USO 2006 final
3. Wawrinka RG 2015 final vs Federer RG 2011 semi-final
4. Sampras Wimby 1999 final vs Federer Wimby 2006 final
5. Djokovic AO 2015 final vs Nadal RG 2011 final
 

Megafanoftennis100

Professional
Also, getting back to the topic, prime Djokovic at AO and prime Nadal at RG had quite a number of similarities. Firstly, Djokovic's prime was 2011-2016 and Nadal's prime was 2008-2013. Both lasted 6 years, and both players won 5/6 of their home slams.
2011 AO similar to 2008 RG - their best ever run at their respective home slams. They both straight-setted Federer.
2012 AO similar to 2013 RG - Nadal was pushed to 5 by Djokovic at RG and barely managed to win it - this match was widely considered the greatest RG match ever. Djokovic was pushed to 5 by Nadal at AO and barely managed to win it - this was widely considered the greatest AO match ever.
2014 AO similar to 2009 RG - Both lost here unexpectedly. This was their first loss at their home slam since entering their prime. Although the difference is that Wawrinka was the eventual champion, whereas Soderling was the eventual finalist.
2015 AO similar to 2011 RG - Both still won it at the end, but it was rather underwhelming compared to their lofty standards. Nadal was pushed to 5 by Isner and Djokovic was pushed to 5 by Wawrinka.
2016 AO similar to 2012 AO - Both were nearly unbeatable, especially in the semis and finals, although the difference here is that Djokovic had a very bad 4th round match against Simon, whereas Nadal had no such blemishes in his run.

Although unfortunately, 2013 AO and 2010 RG runs share no similarity :(
 

RS

Bionic Poster
OK, how about my turn:

Who played at a higher level?

1. Raonic AO 2019 R16 vs Nadal AO 2009 final
2. Djokovic USO 2011 final vs Federer USO 2006 final
3. Wawrinka RG 2015 final vs Federer RG 2011 semi-final
4. Sampras Wimby 1999 final vs Federer Wimby 2006 final
5. Djokovic AO 2015 final vs Nadal RG 2011 final
Nadal
Fed in 5
Fed in 5
Different era but let's say hypothetical Fed
Good one let's say Nadal
 
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Megafanoftennis100

Professional
Nadal
Fed in 5
Fed in 5
Different era but let's say hypothetical Fed
Good one let's say Nadal
Agree with most, although I have to disagree with the 2nd one, not because I disagree with the fact that 2006 Fed is superior to 2011 Djokovic at US Open, but because Federer is mentally not strong enough to come out on top in a 5 set match against prime Djokovic. I think that if Federer lets it go to 5, he might choke and lose opportunities and eventually, the match itself. So he really needs to close it out in 4, which might be incredibly difficult, because defeating 2011 Djokovic on hard court in anything less than 5 sets would seem impossible
 
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Rosstour

G.O.A.T.
Sampras never played a player on his own level. And yet never won more than two Slams in a season. And never won the FO.
 

Rosstour

G.O.A.T.
Does that make him a weak era champion? Maybe he couldn't face anyone on his level, because he was just that incredibly good in his prime.

Fedalovic all had to face players who were as good or better than them, and they had to do it for most of their careers.

Sampras' main rival is a guy with just over half his Slam count.
 

Lauren_Girl'

Hall of Fame
Peak Nadal at RG is better than anyone, I wouldn't dispute that, but peak Djokovic at AO is close second. 10 AO could be 11 or even 12 in the end. Peak, healthy Djokovic only lost 1 match in Australia for me. 2014 vs Wawrinka. Still his only true loss there in my opinion. It wouldn't be fair to imply 2017-2018 was peak Djokovic in Australia... Just like it's unfair to claim Nadal peaked in RG in 2015 and 2016. Let's wait and see how many AO Djokovic wins, he's still the favorite in 2024 and if he wins it, he will be favorite in 2025.

Every ATG benefitted from a "weak era" in some way. Including Sampras. Any players with 5 Slams or more had an easier draw and weaker competition at some point. If you look at all of Sampras' slam draws I'm sure you'll find something to belittle him. We could argue about this for decades, it doesn't really matter. He won 14, he was the Goat until the Big-3 caught him, end of story...
 

Megafanoftennis100

Professional
Peak Nadal at RG is better than anyone, I wouldn't dispute that, but peak Djokovic at AO is close second. 10 AO could be 11 or even 12 in the end. Peak, healthy Djokovic only lost 1 match in Australia for me. 2014 vs Wawrinka. Still his only true loss there in my opinion. It wouldn't be fair to imply 2017-2018 was peak Djokovic in Australia... Just like it's unfair to claim Nadal peaked in RG in 2015 and 2016. Let's wait and see how many AO Djokovic wins, he's still the favorite in 2024 and if he wins it, he will be favorite in 2025.

Every ATG benefitted from a "weak era" in some way. Including Sampras. Any players with 5 Slams or more had an easier draw and weaker competition at some point. If you look at all of Sampras' slam draws I'm sure you'll find something to belittle him. We could argue about this for decades, it doesn't really matter. He won 14, he was the Goat until the Big-3 caught him, end of story...
This is the common mistake people make when comparing the peak levels of two players. Instead of judging things by looking exclusively at their peak performance, they look at their career records as an entirety. This is not a measure of peak level, but of staying power and longevity.
For example, Agassi won more AO titles than Safin (4 > 1), but Safin arguably peaked higher at the AO (his 2005 run surpasses any AO run Agassi ever had in his career). Agassi has a better longevity than Safin at the AO, but Safin reached a higher ceiling. It doesn't matter if Agassi won 10 or 20 AO titles. That doesn't tell us much about his peak level.
And I am trying to compare between Rafa's and Djokovic's peak level at their home Slams here, alongside, of course, evaluating Sampras' field of competition.
In this case, the most notable example coming to my mind is 2008 Rafa at RG vs 2011 Djokovic at AO.
I will provide my personal opinion on this (warning, it is very unpopular):

2008 RG vs 2011 AO - Tie between the two. OK, before Rafa fans come lashing out at me, please hear me out first. Rafa did obliterate Federer in an epic fashion, but we have to consider that:
1. Federer already developed a mental block against Rafa back then
2. Rafa is a terrible match-up for Federer on clay.
3. Clay is, by far, Federer's worst surface, whereas it is the absolute best surface of Nadal.
Rafa did take advantage of those factors when playing against Roger, so there was much more to the demolition of Federer than just the raw level Rafa showed throughout 2008 RG. I do understand that 6-1, 6-3, 6-0 is way too one-sided of a win, especially against the World #1, and I do give Nadal full credit for that, but then, just saying, it may not be entirely fair to ignore the context and just take the scoreline alone to determine the enormity of the gap in level between 2008 Rafa and 2008 Federer on clay.
On the other hand, we have to take into account that Djokovic does not enjoy any match-up advantages against Federer in the way Nadal does (other than maybe the mental anxiety Federer developed against Djokovic post-2012), so nearly every time he won, he had to outplay Federer with his raw level of tennis alone. I.e. simply by the virtue of being superior. If anything, Fed himself was a slightly bad match-up for Djokovic.
Moreover, Federer in 2011 was only 29 years old. You cannot say he was "past his prime" here, because in modern times, players peaking in their late 20s has become more common. Federer also did not have mono issues like he did 3 years ago, so his loss in 2011 was inexcusable and Djokovic won fair and square, prime-to-prime. Surely, he did not dominate Federer, but then, come on, nobody in the history of tennis "dominates" a healthy Roger Federer in his 20s on hard courts. Without a doubt, Federer's level on HC >>>> his level on Clay. It is also easier to hold serve on hard courts, because the surface is a lot faster than clay.
And Djokovic's demolition of Murray in the finals of 2011 AO is at least as impressive as Nadal's demolition of Djokovic in the semi-finals of 2008 RG. Not to mention that 2011 Murray on HC > 2008 Djokovic on Clay.
With all things considered, peak Djokovic at AO and peak Rafa at RG are equals. But of course, Rafa at RG has better longevity and consistency, I give you that.
 

Subway Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Saying that Joker’s peak at the AO is higher than RAFA’s peak at RG is far more absurd. He trails in literally any meaningful metric you go by. Whether it’s # of titles, total wins, W/L record/win percentage etc. RAFA has won RG 4x (2008, 2010, 2017, and 2020) without dropping a set which is an OE record. Joker hasn’t done it even once. Heck, even Fraud has managed to win the AO without dropping a set so you could make an argument that even he “peaked” higher at the AO than Joker did.
It’s wild looking back at some of those 2010 and 2008 Nadal matches on clay. It looks like an animation or video game. The trajectory and arc / flight PeakDal gets on the ball is just amazing. Never seen anyone achieve those same shapes before or since. We all love his fighting spirit and speed chasing everything down, but even more impressive how much of a magician he was with the ball.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
This is the common mistake people make when comparing the peak levels of two players. Instead of judging things by looking exclusively at their peak performance, they look at their career records as an entirety. This is not a measure of peak level, but of staying power and longevity.
For example, Agassi won more AO titles than Safin (4 > 1), but Safin arguably peaked higher at the AO (his 2005 run surpasses any AO run Agassi ever had in his career). Agassi has a better longevity than Safin at the AO, but Safin reached a higher ceiling. It doesn't matter if Agassi won 10 or 20 AO titles. That doesn't tell us much about his peak level.
And I am trying to compare between Rafa's and Djokovic's peak level at their home Slams here, alongside, of course, evaluating Sampras' field of competition.
In this case, the most notable example coming to my mind is 2008 Rafa at RG vs 2011 Djokovic at AO.
I will provide my personal opinion on this (warning, it is very unpopular):

2008 RG vs 2011 AO - Tie between the two. OK, before Rafa fans come lashing out at me, please hear me out first. Rafa did obliterate Federer in an epic fashion, but we have to consider that:
1. Federer already developed a mental block against Rafa back then
2. Rafa is a terrible match-up for Federer on clay.
3. Clay is, by far, Federer's worst surface, whereas it is the absolute best surface of Nadal.
Rafa did take advantage of those factors when playing against Roger, so there was much more to the demolition of Federer than just the raw level Rafa showed throughout 2008 RG. I do understand that 6-1, 6-3, 6-0 is way too one-sided of a win, especially against the World #1, and I do give Nadal full credit for that, but then, just saying, it may not be entirely fair to ignore the context and just take the scoreline alone to determine the enormity of the gap in level between 2008 Rafa and 2008 Federer on clay.
On the other hand, we have to take into account that Djokovic does not enjoy any match-up advantages against Federer in the way Nadal does (other than maybe the mental anxiety Federer developed against Djokovic post-2012), so nearly every time he won, he had to outplay Federer with his raw level of tennis alone. I.e. simply by the virtue of being superior. If anything, Fed himself was a slightly bad match-up for Djokovic.
Moreover, Federer in 2011 was only 29 years old. You cannot say he was "past his prime" here, because in modern times, players peaking in their late 20s has become more common. Federer also did not have mono issues like he did 3 years ago, so his loss in 2011 was inexcusable and Djokovic won fair and square, prime-to-prime. Surely, he did not dominate Federer, but then, come on, nobody in the history of tennis "dominates" a healthy Roger Federer in his 20s on hard courts. Without a doubt, Federer's level on HC >>>> his level on Clay. It is also easier to hold serve on hard courts, because the surface is a lot faster than clay.
And Djokovic's demolition of Murray in the finals of 2011 AO is at least as impressive as Nadal's demolition of Djokovic in the semi-finals of 2008 RG. Not to mention that 2011 Murray on HC > 2008 Djokovic on Clay.
With all things considered, peak Djokovic at AO and peak Rafa at RG are equals. But of course, Rafa at RG has better longevity and consistency, I give you that.
:p
 

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
Also, guys, I don't think we should be looking at their entire career records at their home Slams to determine peak levels. Because obviously, both players have won their home Slams many times while not being at their peak.
For example, you cannot say that 2022 Rafa is as good as 2008 Rafa at RG just because both won the tournament. And likewise for comparing 2023 Djokovic to 2011 Djokovic.


True. Peak vs Peak comparison helps Djokovic more because Nadal surely wins in terms of longevity (so far). Djokovic has 10 and Nadal has 14, Djokovic would have one more without the deportation and even if he wins the next one he would still be a couple of slams behind Nadal.

Peak vs Peak it would be RG 2008 where Nadal won without dropping a set (the closest he was to losing one was vs Djokovic when he saved set points) and Djokovic in the AO 2011 lost one set in a tie break vs Dodig. Both won comfortably but hard to argue against Nadal's RG 2008 form. The only one with a case is Borg's run when he dropped even fewer games.
 
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Deleted member 758560

Guest
its time for megafan to create a new thread i guess.. with its title..who is more sick, norman bates or sabratha
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Who played at a higher level?

1. Roddick Wim 04 final or Safin AO 04 QF
2. Tsonga RG 12 QF or Murray Wim 12 final
3. Roddick AO 04 QF or Hewitt AO 05 final
4. Nadal Wim 08 final or Federer AO 04 QF
5. Djokovic RG 16 final or Hewitt USO 01 final
6. Wawrinka USO 16 final or Nadal AO 17 final
 

The Guru

Legend
It's crazy that it's true that even though Djokovic is so dominant in Australia that he has won the AO every year he was in any kind of form except for once it's still absurd to compare that to Nadal at RG. I really don't think there's any other sporting achievement/record that compares to what Nadal has done in Paris it's absolutely mind boggling.
 

fedfan24

Hall of Fame
OK, how about my turn:

Who played at a higher level?

1. Raonic AO 2019 R16 vs Nadal AO 2009 final
2. Djokovic USO 2011 final vs Federer USO 2006 final
3. Wawrinka RG 2015 final vs Federer RG 2011 semi-final
4. Sampras Wimby 1999 final vs Federer Wimby 2006 final
5. Djokovic AO 2015 final vs Nadal RG 2011 final
Bassl
Federer
Federer
Tie
Nadal
 
98 was not that weak, Sampras only won Wimbledon because Rafter was at his peak during the NA HC summer, winning Montreal, Cincinnati and winning USO by defeating Sampras in five sets, and Pete also picked up a niggle there. Cannot call that weak, when a top class player was at his peak.

Also it was peak Moya, won RG, got to semis of USO. It wasn't super strong like 90-95, but it was still strong. It wasn't weak at all.
Why do you say 90-95 was super strong.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
OK, how about my turn:

Who played at a higher level?

1. Raonic AO 2019 R16 vs Nadal AO 2009 final
2. Djokovic USO 2011 final vs Federer USO 2006 final
3. Wawrinka RG 2015 final vs Federer RG 2011 semi-final
4. Sampras Wimby 1999 final vs Federer Wimby 2006 final
5. Djokovic AO 2015 final vs Nadal RG 2011 final
Raonic appearing on the spreedsheet.
 
D

Deleted member 758560

Guest
its a pity i dont follow nba, otherwise an opinion would have been formed perhaps of which one is more yummy..detroit red wings or denver nuggets
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Agree with most, although I have to disagree with the 2nd one, not because I disagree with the fact that 2006 Fed is superior to 2011 Djokovic at US Open, but because Federer is mentally not strong enough to come out on top in a 5 set match against prime Djokovic. I think that if Federer lets it go to 5, he might choke and lose opportunities and eventually, the match itself. So he really needs to close it out in 4, which might be incredibly difficult, because defeating 2011 Djokovic on hard court in anything less than 5 sets would seem impossible
2011 Fed was a point away in 5. Doesn't mean that is the extraction most the time but Djokovic could lose in 5 I mean Wawrinka did pretty well at AO going 1/3 in 5 setters and barely losing the other.

It might be a Fed in 4 or Djokovic in 5 case again though.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Who played at a higher level?

1. Roddick Wim 04 final or Safin AO 04 QF
2. Tsonga RG 12 QF or Murray Wim 12 final
3. Roddick AO 04 QF or Hewitt AO 05 final
4. Nadal Wim 08 final or Federer AO 04 QF
5. Djokovic RG 16 final or Hewitt USO 01 final
6. Wawrinka USO 16 final or Nadal AO 17 final
 
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