btsjungkook
Professional
Even Hyeon Chung straight setted Novak in 2018, yet peak Sinner lost a set to a declining grandpa.
Which year of tennis has the stronger level of competition, 2011 or 2024?
- Thread starter Megafanoftennis100
- Start date
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
BS, you know that boat has sailed. Leave aside your many names and go out to enjoy the real world
this isn’t healthy and deep down you know it
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Lol. Fighting so viciously to get people in a forum to „admit“ that the guy leading in all relevant stats is not the GOAT, what a way to spend your time. Even if (what will never happen as you should know) succeed in getting people here to admit that (maybe out of sympathy for you), what exactly will that change? Novak would still have the numbers and it would still bother you so whatever anyone admits or not will not reduce your pain bro. Better get out and try something better with your time.
I am not here to troll, yet I will compare strongest season ever with changing of the guard and injury filled/out of shape season.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
RS
Bionic Poster
Probably does more damage than 10 Roddick's
Megafanoftennis100
Professional
Oof, that's a tough one! That's like splitting hairs, but if I had to bet on it, I would say pick the 2nd option, i.e. 2008 Fed beating 2004 Roddick 3 consecutive times.What's more likely on grass, 2008 Fed beating 2008 Nadal? Or 2008 Fed clearing a draw where he plays a fresh 2004 Roddick every round from the QF onwards?
Federer had a better backhand in 2008 than he did in 2004. His forehand was about the same (2004 just slightly better). And unlike against Nadal, 2008 Fed would not have mental issues against any version of Roddick on grass.
Megafanoftennis100
Professional
2024 and 2011 respectively
Megafanoftennis100
Professional
Actually, absolute peak Djokovic lost a set to a considerably past prime, old Federer in 2015 WB final, 2015 USO final, 2016 AO semi-final (who was playing clearly worse than Djokovic AO 2024 semi-final)
No matter how desperate you might be to prove that Djokovic somehow destroyed Federer at his best events, the reality is that Djokovic wasn't even good enough to win in straights against a player that was 34 years old.
Poor attempt at trolling.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Why would the Roddicks all be fresh and all be in peak form at the same time? This is also only grass, on clay the Roddicks would be non-factors so Fed could clear unlike in the presence of a Nadal. In short, for each big three, playing alongside another big three is way more detrimental than several additional Hewitt/Roddick/Murray/Med whatever players. So Fed/Ned/Djo being all close to their best (Fed to a lesser extent than the others) at the same time in 2011, makes it way tougher than 2024 even if it was the case that depth/average level was better in the latter.What's more likely on grass, 2008 Fed beating 2008 Nadal? Or 2008 Fed clearing a draw where he plays a fresh 2004 Roddick every round from the QF onwards?
NatF
Bionic Poster
lol you took the question more seriously than you should have.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Ok fair. Tough sometimes here to spot whether serious or not. But well, if all three Roddicks are fresh it would maybe be tougher for Fed than 2008 Nadal.
NatF
Bionic Poster
It's just because RS said 1 Nadal is tougher than 10 Roddick's, I don't think that's true except on clay so I asked him a bizarre hypothetical.
Megafanoftennis100
Professional
btw just out of curiosity, are you a Roddick fan? I always assumed that you are, because of that angry Roddick face on your profile picture
NatF
Bionic Poster
He was my first favourite player, used to prefer him to Fed initially.btw just out of curiosity, are you a Roddick fan? I always assumed that you are, because of that angry Roddick face on your profile picture
CHillTennis
Hall of Fame
Djokovic was 28 in 2015. Fed turned 34 that year. Six year age difference.
How old was Sinner at the Australian Open? 22. Djokovic was 36. Fourteen years.
I rest my case.
messiahrobins
Legend
You sound very salty here. Maybe you didn't really watch tennis before 2011, but to say Nadal wasn't as quick in 2009 is total fantasy. Federer was obviously not his absolute peak in 2008, his AO defeat to Djokovic and the manner of the FO final defeat obvious proof of that. At that level, against fellow ATG's the slightest physical impairment can make all the difference.
Megafanoftennis100
Professional
I mean, to be fair, 28 is the age when players are closer to their prime than at 22. Djokovic was incomparably better in 2015 than he was in 2009.
Also, do you not agree that Djokovic played better at AO 2024 semi-final than Federer did at Wimbledon 2015 final, USO 2015 final and AO 2016 semi-final?
Squandering 19 break points in a match is at least as bad as making 54 unforced errors (AO 2024 Nole > USO 2015 Roger)
Getting too tired after just 2 sets (lol even I don't have such terrible stamina) is arguably worse than what Djokovic showed in the last two sets of the match against Sinner (AO 2024 Nole > WB 2015 Roger)
And in AO 2016 semi-final, Federer was experimenting too much with silly shots and unfitting tactics in the first two sets, making errors left and right like a fool (seriously, go to YouTube and watch the match). At least Djokovic played proper tennis in the AO 2024 semi-final. And in the fourth set of AO 2016 semi-final, Djokovic was close to getting broken by Federer, but got lucky as always thanks to Federer making silly errors to give away the point. In contrast, at 2-1 in the fourth set of AO 2024 semi-final, no tennis player in history could have held their serve against Sinner, which is why Djokovic deservingly got broken. Even if you replaced Djoker with peak John Isner serving the absolute best serves of his entire life, or peak Sampras on Wimbledon Centre Court, Sinner would have broken anyone in that game. He was just too good, as you would've noticed if you watched the match. (AO 2024 Nole > AO 2016 Roger)
Megafanoftennis100
Professional
(OK, perhaps my third comment about AO 2016 semi-final vs AO 2024 semi-final was a bit too exaggerated, but my first two points are indisputable, come on)
TheGoldenEra1990’s
Hall of Fame
2024 is looking worse than 2002
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Watching tennis before 2011 live is/was not a difficult thing to do, any person with a TV and old enough to understand whats going on could have watched tennis is any decade, you don't need magical powers to do that, so don't think that everyone you interact is a 24-25 year old to watch tennis from 2011 or some sort of a bot of Djokovic, clearly not the case.
Everybody is robbed of a bit of speed and explosiveness as they enter their mid 20s, infact the speed and explosiveness of early 20s for any athlete/human is the absolute peak ..... the Nadal of 2005-2008 had more speed and explosiveness than Nadal of 2009 (post clay season), Federer of 2003-2006 had more explosiveness and speed than Federer of 2007+.
In any case, my original point was ..... Nadal never beat absolute Peak Federer outside Clay in Grand Slams, Djokovic never beat absolute peak Federer in slams anywhere. Only Marat Safin beat peak Federer in a Grand Slam outside Clay, nobody else.
Last edited:
CHillTennis
Hall of Fame
I got news for you bro.
If Sinner was playing peak Sampras on any surface but clay. It's four aces.
Bang, bang, bang, bang. Game, set, match Sampras.
Megafanoftennis100
Professional
OK yeah fine I agree. This time, I went too far.
In any case, would you at least agree with my point about 2024 AO semi-final Djokovic > 2015 WB final Federer, 2015 USO final Federer & 2016 AO semi-final Federer?
I mean, this bit is quite undeniable, right?
NatF
Bionic Poster
You're insane if you believe that.
Megafanoftennis100
Professional
As I have already explained,
Squandering 19 break points in a match is at least as bad as making 54 unforced errors (AO 2024 Nole > USO 2015 Roger)
Getting too tired after just 2 sets (lol even I don't have such terrible stamina) is arguably worse than what Djokovic showed in the last two sets of the match against Sinner (AO 2024 Nole > WB 2015 Roger)
Federer in 2016 was in very poor form, perhaps even worse than in 2013. 2016 was one of Federer's worst seasons, and he definitely was not better than he was in 2015. Hence, AO 2024 Nole > AO 2016 Roger
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
he's trolling
Megafanoftennis100
Professional
No, this time, seriously, that is not my intention. I have already provided logical explanation. Why ignore it? If you're going to accuse me to trolling, at least offer some kind of counterargument to my explanations (which I don't think you can)
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
OK I'll bite just this once to indulge you.
1. I don't even know why you'd compare the two as they're completely different metrics, but if we are doing that, 54 unforced errors is much worse than squandering 19 break points. For one, those 19 break points weren't all self-induced, and you wouldn't be able to tell that just by looking at BPs lost. Some were Fed's fault, but some were because of Djokovic's own good play. Meanwhile, UFE's are by definition completely self-induced, which means all 54 of those were primarily Djokovic's fault. And anyway, the fact that Fed made it to that many break points in the first place suggests something about his level; that same inference can't be made for UFE's.
2. Fed wasn't actually that tired after two sets. He may have lost half a step from the second to the third set (which is why you'd be dumb to take that over 2003-2009 Fed) but the severe drop in endurance only really kicked in during the fourth set. Third set wasn't too bad at all from him, especially compared to Djokovic's performance in 2024. And of course, the first two sets involved intense play against one of the finest baseline players of all time, not Jannik Sinner.
3. Hmm, I'm all too familiar with the "look at everything except the actual match" argument as it's one many Djokovic and Nadal fans are prone to making. This is a particularly bad case of it. Like with 2013, Fed actually wasn't terrible at the AO compared to some other events in the rest of the year. The problem is that was peak Djokovic in the 2016 semifinal, at least for the first two sets. Literally every aspect of his game trumps Sinner's. And when Djokovic only briefly returned to earth, Fed pounced immediately and made the last two sets a fight. None of that pouncing was present in the 2024 semifinal.
QED
CHillTennis
Hall of Fame
Definitely no. I watched those matches back in 2015 and early 2016. Federer was in very good form at the 2015 US Open. I remember him really frustrating his opponents with his new SABR tactic and he had just recently beaten Djokovic at Cincinnati.
The match in the final was very competitive. There was even a point where Fed had Djokovic on the ropes. I would describe it as being very similar to the 2005 US Open final. Federer vs Agassi. Only this time Federer was in Agassi's position of being the older player.
Here is what I would like to emphasize with my point. Even back in 2015 Roger Federer and Novak Djokovic had a rivalry that had gone back and forth for many years. They played each other in Federer's prime and in Djokovic's prime. Despite the six year age difference. They're close to being contemporaries.
Sinner came around in late 2020. Well after Djokovic and Nadal had hit 30 years old.
It took him a few years to really get into contention for grand slam titles. And while his run over the last six months has been impressive. We do have to keep in mind that it was entirely contingent on the decline of the 36 year old Novak Djokovic.
I watched some of the 2024 Australian Open semi-final. I thought that Sinner played well, for his part. His opponent, clearly, did not.
There's a match that I can liken this to. And that is the 2008 US Open semi between Nadal and Murray.
Andy Murray looked unbeatable in that match. Partly because his opponent was clearly exhausted. He then goes on to lose to Federer in straight sets in the final. That very nearly happened to Sinner. If Medvedev had won that third set, we would not be talking about Sinner's recent dominance in the same way.
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
