While achievement wise Serena not greatest ever tennis wise maybe she is?

grafselesfan

grafselesfan

Banned
Even though achievements wise Serena Williams is not the best women player ever does anyone else think that skill and ability wise she might be, particularly at her best. I was thinking the other day how she compares to the current greatest women players of all time and she actually compares favorably game wise by my estimation.


Serena vs Graf:

First serve- Graf has one of the greatest serves in womens tennis history, but Serena's is undisputably the greatest (other than maybe her sister also on the 1st serve). SERENA

Second serve- Serena's 2nd serve especialy is clearly the greatest ever. SERENA

Return of serve- Graf was a very good returner but Serena is arguably the greatest womens return of server ever (with a few other contenders like Seles, Connolly, maybe Evert). SERENA

Forehand- No women in history surpasses Graf here. GRAF

Backhand- Graf's slice backhand is underrated and one of the best slice backhands in womens tennis history, but nobody with predominantly just a slice backhand can be placed over Serena's powerhouse of a backhand. SERENA

Volleys- Not a huge edge to either, maybe a bit to Graf. GRAF by a bit

Movement- Again not a huge difference if both are at their best. Maybe Graf by a bit again. GRAF by a bit

Overhead- Both were amazing, put away any overhead, even tough ones. EVEN

Mental game- Both are among the mentally toughest players in history. I would go with Graf only by a hair. GRAF by a bit

So both have 4 edges and 1 tie. However Serena has a clear edge in all 4 of her edges, while Graf only a very slight iffy edge in 3 of her 4. Keep in mind Graf is my favorite women player of all time and if anything I would be biased to her.


Now Serena vs Navratilova:

First serve- Basically the same thing I said for Graf. Martina has one of the greatest serves ever, Serena is the greatest women server ever only challenged on the 1st serve by her sister. SERENA

Second serve- Serena is even more the unchallenged queen of the 2nd serve. SERENA

Return of serve- Martina was actually an excellent and underrated returner. Still this is clearly Serena. SERENA

Forehand- Martina had an excellent forehand, by far her better side off the ground. Still the edge goes to Serena. SERENA

Backhand- This is no contest. Martina's backhand isnt even up to the standard of Graf's. SERENA

Volleys- Martina the greatest volleyer ever of course takes this category. MARTINA

Overhead- Martina probably had the greatest womens overhead ever, along with possibly Court. MARTINA

Movement- Both are among the fastest women ever, at full fitness I would call it a tie (acknowledging Serena isnt always). EVEN

Mental game- Martina is underrated here, you dont win as much as she does without a very strong mental game. Still Serena takes her here. SERENA

This is even more a blowout than Graf with Martina winning 2 categories and Serena winning 6.


Comparing Serena to Evert is somewhat unfair as their game styles are so different. Atleast in some aspects of the game. Both have outstanding groundstrokes and return of serves, but which are effective in completely different ways. Comparatively Serena's are more about raw power, and Evert's more about control, consistency, and pinpoint accuracy. However regardless the style difference Serena's serve is many light years beyond Evert even if Evert had been playing today with todays racquets, she is clearly the faster of the two despite that Evert herself was very fast and overall a very efficent mover (with superb anticipation boosting her overall movement further), and her overhead is also in a whole other league (this was not a strong shot for Evert similar to the serve). Given that both are excellent in other areas, albeit in a completely different way and playing style, these distinct differences would seem to give Serena the overall edge.

I wont ever both comparing to Court who was too far back to make a fair comparision, and women before her even moreso.

What I am trying to say is while you cant really say Serena is the greatest ever as her achievements are insufficient for that title, tennis wise, especialy at her best, could well be the greatest that ever played.
 
Only those with the usual agenda will abuse you or your post. Sports commonly features players of (retired or active and still building on careers) with less achievements than another, yet possess some greater ability (though the tendency is to think more slams means superior skills in all catagories).

For example, Federer has more slams than John McEnroe, but JM's serve and volley talents eclipse Federer's to almost unimaginable degrees. His gifted timing, hand/eye coordination and athleticism could easily be added to the debate as well.

Moreover, Federer has more slams than someone like Connors, but between the two, the greater return of serve belongs to...?

So, Serena (as of this date) may not have as many slams as Graf or Martina, but this in no way means certain, individual skills are also on an imagined lower rung.
 
THUNDERVOLLEY said:
Only those with the usual agenda will abuse you or your post. Sports commonly features players of (retired or active and still building on careers) with less achievements than another, yet possess some greater ability (though the tendency is to think more slams means superior skills in all catagories).

For example, Federer has more slams than John McEnroe, but JM's serve and volley talents eclipse Federer's to almost unimaginable degrees. His gifted timing, hand/eye coordination and athleticism could easily be added to the debate as well.

Moreover, Federer has more slams than someone like Connors, but between the two, the greater return of serve belongs to...?

So, Serena (as of this date) may not have as many slams as Graf or Martina, but this in no way means certain, individual skills are also on an imagined lower rung.
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Thank you. I am also along the lines of thinking that one shouldnt just assume someones skills are better in all areas just because they have won significantly more. Your examples on Federer vs such and such a player in specific areas anyway prove that out. There are many variables that can go into exactly how much a player wins. Granted if they dont win at all, or very little, then it isnt by chance, they just arent great enough. However when you are talking about different players who have all won alot, there can be many possible variables that went into those who won more.

Even if her achievements are not the greatest ever ability wise Serena matches up well to all the greatest women players in history IMO. I broke down exactly why I believed that.
 
grafselesfan said:
I already know I am probably going to take alot of abuse from some posters for this thread btw.
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Not from me.. I agree with most of it. Only:

Movement- Again not a huge difference if both are at their best. Maybe Graf by a bit again. GRAF by a bit
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I strongly disagree with you on this one. Graf is one of the best movers ever. Serena in top form is not a bad mover, but not a great mover either. Imo she is particularly vulnerable on changes directions (don't know the english word). On the run she is pretty fast though.
 
jelle v said:
Not from me.. I agree with most of it. Only:



I strongly disagree with you on this one. Graf is one of the best movers ever. Serena in top form is not a bad mover, but not a great mover either. Imo she is particularly vulnerable on changes directions (don't know the english word). On the run she is pretty fast though.
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serena and graf may be close in speed but graf has one of the best foot work ever. still ability wise over all i would put them pretty close to each other if only serena was as consistent as graf she would have a bit more than she does now. oh yes consistency graf wins when it comes to this
 
A pivotal point in any such analysis is that the depth today is far far greater than 15, 20, 30...years ago. This is especially true on the womens side!

The number of elite players is comparable; however what the women face in draws for most significant tournaments dwarfs what the stars of yesteryear dealt with. Neither Margaret not Steffi nor Martina nor Chris would win 18+ slams in this era, IMHO! More grueling hard court events in the recent era also serves to limit longevity.

Serena is without a doubt the "best" from a pure athletic vantage point, even as career wise she is not even close to the best with a mere 2 years finishing #1 (assumig she does in '09).
 
grafselesfan said:
Even though achievements wise Serena Williams is not the best women player ever does anyone else think that skill and ability wise she might be, particularly at her best. ...
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In 2000-2009 Serena had 30 (!) losses against non-top-10 players.
Even in her greatest year ever (2002), being "at her best", she lost to Shaughnessy (#13), Schnyder (#30) and Rubin (#21).


N
 
I won't go into a stroke comparison but I will say that I've spoken to a few tennis experts who have seen the game for many years and some of them believe Serena is the greatest ever if she is on her game.

Let's face it, Serena can hurt you with so many shots, is lightning fast and plays a great defensive game also.

Believe it or not some of players I can see possible matching her is Venus and Clijsters.

Clijsters can hurt you with as many shots as Serena and I actually think her groundies may be a little more solid. However Serena has the advantage of a great serve so I think that gives her a slight edge.

In the US Open semi this year I thought Serena played a super match and Clijsters still outplayed her and won. So Kim is one of the players who I think can at least come close to Serena if Serena plays well.
 
jaap deboeck said:
A pivotal point in any such analysis is that the depth today is far far greater than 15, 20, 30...years ago. This is especially true on the womens side!

The number of elite players is comparable; however what the women face in draws for most significant tournaments dwarfs what the stars of yesteryear dealt with. Neither Margaret not Steffi nor Martina nor Chris would win 18+ slams in this era, IMHO! ...
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Against whom could Steffi lose on clay today?
Who would challenge her at the FO?
Kuzzy ... ?
Ivanovic ........ ?

BTW, both players won the FO recently.
 
pc1 said:
I won't go into a stroke comparison but I will say that I've spoken to a few tennis experts who have seen the game for many years and some of them believe Serena is the greatest ever if she is on her game.

Let's face it, Serena can hurt you with so many shots, is lightning fast and plays a great defensive game also.

Believe it or not some of players I can see possible matching her is Venus and Clijsters.

Clijsters can hurt you with as many shots as Serena and I actually think her groundies may be a little more solid. However Serena has the advantage of a great serve so I think that gives her a slight edge.

In the US Open semi this year I thought Serena played a super match and Clijsters still outplayed her and won. So Kim is one of the players who I think can at least come close to Serena if Serena plays well.
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40-year-old Graf played Clijsters recently in a Wimbledon exhibition.
Although it was supposed to be a fun match, guess who played the more powerful tennis (and hit more winners) ...

BTW, many Serena fans talk of "Serena at her best" but fail to explain WHEN this might have been. In the one hour of the AO 2008 final when she thrashed Sharapova?
Which period to you take as "at-best" time frame? One hour, one day, one tournament, 3 months, one year, three years??
 
Joe Pike said:
40-year-old Graf played Clijsters recently in a Wimbledon exhibition.
Although it was supposed to be a fun match, guess who played the more powerful tennis (and hit more winners) ...

BTW, many Serena fans talk of "Serena at her best" but fail to explain WHEN this might have been. In the one hour of the AO 2008 final when she thrashed Sharapova?
Which period to you take as "at-best" time frame? One hour, one day, one tournament, 3 months, one year, three years??
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I'm not a Serena fan but I think they mean for one match at her best that she may be the best.
 
It all relates to had Serena gave two craps past the year 2003 things might be very different.
 
THUNDERVOLLEY said:
Only those with the usual agenda will abuse you or your post. Sports commonly features players of (retired or active and still building on careers) with less achievements than another, yet possess some greater ability (though the tendency is to think more slams means superior skills in all catagories).

For example, Federer has more slams than John McEnroe, but JM's serve and volley talents eclipse Federer's to almost unimaginable degrees. His gifted timing, hand/eye coordination and athleticism could easily be added to the debate as well.

Moreover, Federer has more slams than someone like Connors, but between the two, the greater return of serve belongs to...?

So, Serena (as of this date) may not have as many slams as Graf or Martina, but this in no way means certain, individual skills are also on an imagined lower rung.
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You can't compare Federer to Serena b/c it's apple to orange. Federer holds GS records and many other records, and will continue until break other records until he retire. Meanwhile Serena's numbers are dwarf in compared to Martina, Graf of Chris, etc.. She's not even dominating in her era(unlike Fed), trailing weeks at #, year end #1, and total titles. Huge difference

One thing they have in common is they are playing in the modern day, where there's more countries and athletes competing which the tour has more depth in talent. However, the ATP is more competitive than the WTA since they lost a few great players in the past 1.5 years(henin, kim and maria). And Federer's achievement totally outclassed Serena in every areas.

It makes me laugh when people try to use Federer in order to support how great Serena is.
 
Joe Pike said:
40-year-old Graf played Clijsters recently in a Wimbledon exhibition.
Although it was supposed to be a fun match, guess who played the more powerful tennis (and hit more winners) ...

BTW, many Serena fans talk of "Serena at her best" but fail to explain WHEN this might have been. In the one hour of the AO 2008 final when she thrashed Sharapova?
Which period to you take as "at-best" time frame? One hour, one day, one tournament, 3 months, one year, three years??
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:lol: :lol:
 
grafselesfan said:
Even though achievements wise Serena Williams is not the best women player ever does anyone else think that skill and ability wise she might be, particularly at her best. I was thinking the other day how she compares to the current greatest women players of all time and she actually compares favorably game wise by my estimation.


Serena vs Graf:

First serve- Graf has one of the greatest serves in womens tennis history, but Serena's is undisputably the greatest (other than maybe her sister also on the 1st serve). SERENA

Second serve- Serena's 2nd serve especialy is clearly the greatest ever. SERENA

Return of serve- Graf was a very good returner but Serena is arguably the greatest womens return of server ever (with a few other contenders like Seles, Connolly, maybe Evert). SERENA

Forehand- No women in history surpasses Graf here. GRAF

Backhand- Graf's slice backhand is underrated and one of the best slice backhands in womens tennis history, but nobody with predominantly just a slice backhand can be placed over Serena's powerhouse of a backhand. SERENA

Volleys- Not a huge edge to either, maybe a bit to Graf. GRAF by a bit

Movement- Again not a huge difference if both are at their best. Maybe Graf by a bit again. GRAF by a bit

Overhead- Both were amazing, put away any overhead, even tough ones. EVEN

Mental game- Both are among the mentally toughest players in history. I would go with Graf only by a hair. GRAF by a bit

So both have 4 edges and 1 tie. However Serena has a clear edge in all 4 of her edges, while Graf only a very slight iffy edge in 3 of her 4. Keep in mind Graf is my favorite women player of all time and if anything I would be biased to her.


Now Serena vs Navratilova:

First serve- Basically the same thing I said for Graf. Martina has one of the greatest serves ever, Serena is the greatest women server ever only challenged on the 1st serve by her sister. SERENA

Second serve- Serena is even more the unchallenged queen of the 2nd serve. SERENA

Return of serve- Martina was actually an excellent and underrated returner. Still this is clearly Serena. SERENA

Forehand- Martina had an excellent forehand, by far her better side off the ground. Still the edge goes to Serena. SERENA

Backhand- This is no contest. Martina's backhand isnt even up to the standard of Graf's. SERENA

Volleys- Martina the greatest volleyer ever of course takes this category. MARTINA

Overhead- Martina probably had the greatest womens overhead ever, along with possibly Court. MARTINA

Movement- Both are among the fastest women ever, at full fitness I would call it a tie (acknowledging Serena isnt always). EVEN

Mental game- Martina is underrated here, you dont win as much as she does without a very strong mental game. Still Serena takes her here. SERENA

This is even more a blowout than Graf with Martina winning 2 categories and Serena winning 6.


Comparing Serena to Evert is somewhat unfair as their game styles are so different. Atleast in some aspects of the game. Both have outstanding groundstrokes and return of serves, but which are effective in completely different ways. Comparatively Serena's are more about raw power, and Evert's more about control, consistency, and pinpoint accuracy. However regardless the style difference Serena's serve is many light years beyond Evert even if Evert had been playing today with todays racquets, she is clearly the faster of the two despite that Evert herself was very fast and overall a very efficent mover (with superb anticipation boosting her overall movement further), and her overhead is also in a whole other league (this was not a strong shot for Evert similar to the serve). Given that both are excellent in other areas, albeit in a completely different way and playing style, these distinct differences would seem to give Serena the overall edge.

I wont ever both comparing to Court who was too far back to make a fair comparision, and women before her even moreso.

What I am trying to say is while you cant really say Serena is the greatest ever as her achievements are insufficient for that title, tennis wise, especialy at her best, could well be the greatest that ever played.
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No, sorry i have to disagree with you.

Assumming a player playing at her best, which is the best: it is clearly Venus Williams.

Venus (again at her best) is the most explosive, most powerful, most athletic womens player in history.
 
No, sorry i have to disagree with you.

Assumming a player playing at her best, which is the best: it is clearly Venus Williams.

Venus (again at her best) is the most explosive, most powerful, most athletic womens player in history.
 
grafselesfan said:
Even though achievements wise Serena Williams is not the best women player ever does anyone else think that skill and ability wise she might be, particularly at her best. I was thinking the other day how she compares to the current greatest women players of all time and she actually compares favorably game wise by my estimation.


Serena vs Graf:

First serve- Graf has one of the greatest serves in womens tennis history, but Serena's is undisputably the greatest (other than maybe her sister also on the 1st serve). SERENA

Second serve- Serena's 2nd serve especialy is clearly the greatest ever. SERENA

Return of serve- Graf was a very good returner but Serena is arguably the greatest womens return of server ever (with a few other contenders like Seles, Connolly, maybe Evert). SERENA

Forehand- No women in history surpasses Graf here. GRAF

Backhand- Graf's slice backhand is underrated and one of the best slice backhands in womens tennis history, but nobody with predominantly just a slice backhand can be placed over Serena's powerhouse of a backhand. SERENA

Volleys- Not a huge edge to either, maybe a bit to Graf. GRAF by a bit

Movement- Again not a huge difference if both are at their best. Maybe Graf by a bit again. GRAF by a bit

Overhead- Both were amazing, put away any overhead, even tough ones. EVEN

Mental game- Both are among the mentally toughest players in history. I would go with Graf only by a hair. GRAF by a bit

So both have 4 edges and 1 tie. However Serena has a clear edge in all 4 of her edges, while Graf only a very slight iffy edge in 3 of her 4. Keep in mind Graf is my favorite women player of all time and if anything I would be biased to her.
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This is all subjective anyways. So, here is my take:

On the serve: Serena has more power, but how much of that is her wide-beamed, oversized racquet and how much of it is her. Shultz-McCarthy was the fastest server of Steffi's era. Her fastest serve back then was 116 to 119. At that time, Steffi's fastest serve was 106-108. Shultz-McCarthy made a brief comeback two years ago in order to reclaim the fastest serve record from Venus. Using today's racquets, she reclaimed the record with a serve of 130. If Shultz saw that much improvement in mph with the new technology, so could Steffi.

In terms of placement, Steffi was much better than Serena at going outwide to the AD court.

Given all that, I don't think either one has the edge here.

Return of serve: One of Steffi's shots trumps all of Serena's. That would be the forehand. Neither of Serena's shots is designed to hit winners off one ball, regardless of bounce, pace, or location. When the ball is in Serena's strike zone and she doesn't have to move much for it, Serena can hit a very powerful return. Graf didn't need the ball to be in her strike zone. She adjusted so well on the return to any ball that she could even go inside-in with her forehand.

Edge here has to go to Graf based on the versatility of that one shot, the forehand.

Backhand:

Your logic here is a bit too simple. Graf's backhand is a multi-dimensional shot: dropshots, lobs, chip returns, short slices. When she put her mind to it, she also hit a very devastating topspin drive, but typically only on passing shots. Steffi also has as much directional control on the slice backhand as she has on her forehand --- anywhere from inside-out to inside-in.

Serena's backhand only has one thing going for it, power. She rarely displays the ability to create anything but a drive with it. In fact, she often gets in most trouble on that side when she has to create something with the backhand off a low, short ball. Lacking a slice backhand, she often finds herself powerless in those instances.

Given all that, I give the edge to Graf.

Movement:

Take Graf's movement at her peak, 1996. And, take Serena's movement now or at the same age as Graf was in 1996. No comparison. Graf wins this category by a mile. Much, much better footwork. Much, much better quickness. More dynamically efficient movement at top end speed. At the edge of her top end speed, when running to balls hit out wide, Serena often loses her balance. Compare that to Graf's ability to reach top end speed while maintaining her shoulders over her center of gravity.

Given all that, Graf has the clear edge here.

In principle, I don't like these kinds of comparisons. They often favor the inferior player.

Serena is just a big racquet, a big girl, a backhand and a serve. Graf was much, much more than that.

By design, Graf's game is more difficult than Serena's to execute because of the emphasis it placed on running around her backhand. Perhaps, that is why only the men with their superior athleticism and better technical mastery of the forehand and its variable swing paths play like she did.

Strategically, it's also a very complicated game because of how it redraws the boundaries of the court. By design, Graf's forehand (inside-out/inside-in) is meant to introduce some unpredictability into the typical baseline patterns (side to side) and to widen the court, thus making it much more difficult to defend.

There's nothing from a design standpoint about Serena's game that comes close to matching any of the exceptional athletic, technical and strategic aspects of Graf's game. That is why there is no comparison.
 
LDVTennis said:
This is all subjective anyways. So, here is my take:

On the serve: Serena has more power, but how much of that is her wide-beamed, oversized racquet and how much of it is her. Shultz-McCarthy was the fastest server of Steffi's era. Her fastest serve back then was 116 to 119. At that time, Steffi's fastest serve was 106-108. Shultz-McCarthy made a brief comeback two years ago in order to reclaim the fastest serve record from Venus. Using today's racquets, she reclaimed the record with a serve of 130. If Shultz saw that much improvement in mph with the new technology, so could Steffi.

In terms of placement, Steffi was much better than Serena at going outwide to the AD court.

Given all that, I don't think either one has the edge here.

Return of serve: One of Steffi's shots trumps all of Serena's. That would be the forehand. Neither of Serena's shots is designed to hit winners off one ball, regardless of bounce, pace, or location. When the ball is in Serena's strike zone and she doesn't have to move much for it, Serena can hit a very powerful return. Graf didn't need the ball to be in her strike zone. She adjusted so well on the return to any ball that she could even go inside-in with her forehand.

Edge here has to go to Graf based on the versatility of that one shot, the forehand.

Backhand:

Your logic here is a bit too simple. Graf's backhand is a multi-dimensional shot: dropshots, lobs, chip returns, short slices. When she put her mind to it, she also hit a very devastating topspin drive, but typically only on passing shots. Steffi also has as much directional control on the slice backhand as she has on her forehand --- anywhere from inside-out to inside-in.

Serena's backhand only has one thing going for it, power. She rarely displays the ability to create anything but a drive with it. In fact, she often gets in most trouble on that side when she has to create something with the backhand off a low, short ball. Lacking a slice backhand, she often finds herself powerless in those instances.

Given all that, I give the edge to Graf.

Movement:

Take Graf's movement at her peak, 1996. And, take Serena's movement now or at the same age as Graf was in 1996. No comparison. Graf wins this category by a mile. Much, much better footwork. Much, much better quickness. More dynamically efficient movement at top end speed. At the edge of her top end speed, when running to balls hit out wide, Serena often loses her balance. Compare that to Graf's ability to reach top end speed while maintaining her shoulders over her center of gravity.

Given all that, Graf has the clear edge here.

In principle, I don't like these kinds of comparisons. They often favor the inferior player.

Serena is just a big racquet, a big girl, a backhand and a serve. Graf was much, much more than that.

By design, Graf's game is more difficult than Serena's to execute because of the emphasis it placed on running around her backhand. Perhaps, that is why only the men with their superior athleticism and better technical mastery of the forehand and its variable swing paths play like she did.

Strategically, it's also a very complicated game because of how it redraws the boundaries of the court. By design, Graf's forehand (inside-out/inside-in) is meant to introduce some unpredictability into the typical baseline patterns (side to side) and to widen the court, thus making it much more difficult to defend.

There's nothing from a design standpoint about Serena's game that comes close to matching any of the exceptional athletic, technical and strategic aspects of Graf's game. That is why there is no comparison.
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Great analysis!

Many posters here seem to be very young. They have obviously never watched Graf play. And even if so, they don't have any idea about how much racket technology has evolved from 1989 (Graf's peak!) up until today.

BTW, today's faster serve speed stats are not only due to better rackets but also to different measurment methods.
 
Serena lacks the day in day out consistency of steffi and martina.

If you wanna take her peak preformance (once every blue moon) she would be better.
 
Transitory aspects like best performance ever, best form ever and best run ever are more a measure of potential than class. As such, it means more while you are still playing and significantly less once you retire. Serena's always a threat because players know what she's capable of. But soon her career will be over and in retrospect her achievements during her entire career will stand out more than how she performed on her best days (which are few and far between), just like other all-time greats.

Tennis greats like Graf and Navratilova build their careers on a lifetime of achievements which requires consistent performance at the highest level. This is more important than being better on your best day. Serena could arguably be better than Graf on their best day but it doesn't mean much if it doesn't give her that many important wins. It would provide more entertainment value, though!

Plus, tennis has developed over the years with better technology, better nutrition, better fitness regiments, more techniques to learn from, etc. The fact that some aspects of Graf's and Navratilova's game are comparable to today's really tells how much they were able to achieve in their era with their resources.

Serena would be my pick for the best in this era (subject to change depending on how Henin does) but her inconsistency detracts a lot from her greatness. And comparing parts of Serena's career to players who have had a more consistent performance during their entire career seems a bit unqualified...
 
Joe Pike said:
Which were her 10 top performances in the last 5 years?
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Vs Capriati (Wimbledon 2004)
Vs Mauresmo (Australian Open 2005)
Vs Sharapova (Australian Open 2007)
Vs Henin (Miami 2008)
Vs Safina (Australian Open 2009)
Vs Venus (Wimbledon 2009) Not sure about this one.

Are there any other great perfomances?
 
McBrat said:
Transitory aspects like best performance ever, best form ever and best run ever are more a measure of potential than class. As such, it means more while you are still playing and significantly less once you retire. Serena's always a threat because players know what she's capable of. But soon her career will be over and in retrospect her achievements during her entire career will stand out more than how she performed on her best days (which are few and far between), just like other all-time greats.

Tennis greats like Graf and Navratilova build their careers on a lifetime of achievements which requires consistent performance at the highest level. This is more important than being better on your best day. Serena could arguably be better than Graf on their best day but it doesn't mean much if it doesn't give her that many important wins. It would provide more entertainment value, though!

Plus, tennis has developed over the years with better technology, better nutrition, better fitness regiments, more techniques to learn from, etc. The fact that some aspects of Graf's and Navratilova's game are comparable to today's really tells how much they were able to achieve in their era with their resources.

Serena would be my pick for the best in this era (subject to change depending on how Henin does) but her inconsistency detracts a lot from her greatness. And comparing parts of Serena's career to players who have had a more consistent performance during their entire career seems a bit unqualified...
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Serena only won 23 titles outside the GS. She should have won around 60 at this point.
 
TMF said:
Serena's numbers are dwarf in compared to Martina, Graf of Chris, etc.. She's not even dominating in her era(unlike Fed), trailing weeks at #, year end #1, and total titles.
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I am not talking about specific numbers. I am talking about actual tennis playing abilities. In tersm of tennis playing abilites Serena is as good as any player who ever played the game. With the greatest first and second serve ever (challenged by her sister only on the first serve), arguably the greatest return of serve ever (Seles, Connolly, and Evert also in consideration), outstanding groundstrokes off both sides, excellent movement, an excellent overhead, and a pretty good transition game and volleys, and one of the toughest mental games ever, her package as a player can stack up to any women in history, and I am not even a big Serena fan like I am a fan say Graf or Seles. Also keep in mind Serena's career is not over yet.
 
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I love Graf, but anyone who credits her overhead as one of the best is a bit ''confused''. I know, because I have the same problem she had, it's agressive, it is hard, but most of the time ''iffy'' placed. Sabatini and Navratilova had much much better overheads. Movement? Serena just as good? If I weren't tired from all those long post by the OP, then his/her knowlegde gave the final blow.

So far, healthy Graf and Seles would beat anyone, they figured out to win matches at any time against any one. They would never lose against lower-classer opponents in Tier 1 tournaments like Serena Williams did and if they did, then there was really st wrong.

Ps LDV for all the battles we had in the past at SGadmiration thread, I like your posts here.
 
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grafselesfan said:
I am not talking about specific numbers. I am talking about actual tennis playing abilities. In tersm of tennis playing abilites Serena is as good as any player who ever played the game. With the greatest first and second serve ever (challenged by her sister only on the first serve), arguably the greatest return of serve ever (Seles, Connolly, and Evert also in consideration), outstanding groundstrokes off both sides, excellent movement, an excellent overhead, and a pretty good transition game and volleys, and one of the toughest mental games ever, her package as a player can stack up to any women in history, and I am not even a big Serena fan like I am a fan say Graf or Seles. Also keep in mind Serena's career is not over yet.
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These are your opinions. If you want to convince any of us, you're going to have to do much more than declare that Serena was good at all of these things.

Show us the visual evidence. I am assuming you've actually studied Serena's game. So, I'm sure you have this kind of evidence at your fingertips.

Otherwise, there's isn't much to argue about.
 
LDVTennis said:
This is all subjective anyways. So, here is my take:

On the serve: Serena has more power, but how much of that is her wide-beamed, oversized racquet and how much of it is her. Shultz-McCarthy was the fastest server of Steffi's era. Her fastest serve back then was 116 to 119. At that time, Steffi's fastest serve was 106-108. Shultz-McCarthy made a brief comeback two years ago in order to reclaim the fastest serve record from Venus. Using today's racquets, she reclaimed the record with a serve of 130. If Shultz saw that much improvement in mph with the new technology, so could Steffi.

In terms of placement, Steffi was much better than Serena at going outwide to the AD court.

Given all that, I don't think either one has the edge here.

Return of serve: One of Steffi's shots trumps all of Serena's. That would be the forehand. Neither of Serena's shots is designed to hit winners off one ball, regardless of bounce, pace, or location. When the ball is in Serena's strike zone and she doesn't have to move much for it, Serena can hit a very powerful return. Graf didn't need the ball to be in her strike zone. She adjusted so well on the return to any ball that she could even go inside-in with her forehand.

Edge here has to go to Graf based on the versatility of that one shot, the forehand.

Backhand:

Your logic here is a bit too simple. Graf's backhand is a multi-dimensional shot: dropshots, lobs, chip returns, short slices. When she put her mind to it, she also hit a very devastating topspin drive, but typically only on passing shots. Steffi also has as much directional control on the slice backhand as she has on her forehand --- anywhere from inside-out to inside-in.

Serena's backhand only has one thing going for it, power. She rarely displays the ability to create anything but a drive with it. In fact, she often gets in most trouble on that side when she has to create something with the backhand off a low, short ball. Lacking a slice backhand, she often finds herself powerless in those instances.

Given all that, I give the edge to Graf.

Movement:

Take Graf's movement at her peak, 1996. And, take Serena's movement now or at the same age as Graf was in 1996. No comparison. Graf wins this category by a mile. Much, much better footwork. Much, much better quickness. More dynamically efficient movement at top end speed. At the edge of her top end speed, when running to balls hit out wide, Serena often loses her balance. Compare that to Graf's ability to reach top end speed while maintaining her shoulders over her center of gravity.

Given all that, Graf has the clear edge here.

In principle, I don't like these kinds of comparisons. They often favor the inferior player.

Serena is just a big racquet, a big girl, a backhand and a serve. Graf was much, much more than that.

By design, Graf's game is more difficult than Serena's to execute because of the emphasis it placed on running around her backhand. Perhaps, that is why only the men with their superior athleticism and better technical mastery of the forehand and its variable swing paths play like she did.

Strategically, it's also a very complicated game because of how it redraws the boundaries of the court. By design, Graf's forehand (inside-out/inside-in) is meant to introduce some unpredictability into the typical baseline patterns (side to side) and to widen the court, thus making it much more difficult to defend.

There's nothing from a design standpoint about Serena's game that comes close to matching any of the exceptional athletic, technical and strategic aspects of Graf's game. That is why there is no comparison.
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I notice you failed to mention a volley catagory. Graf was not great there, and never played the technique enough to rely on it as you see in the case of SW, who--unlike most of the baseline obsessing field--actually knows how to play it effectively, not just as some last ditch strategy or only coming in when forced to.
 
TMF said:
You can't compare Federer to Serena b/c it's apple to orange. Federer holds GS records and many other records, and will continue until break other records until he retire. Meanwhile Serena's numbers are dwarf in compared to Martina, Graf of Chris, etc.. She's not even dominating in her era(unlike Fed), trailing weeks at #, year end #1, and total titles. Huge difference

One thing they have in common is they are playing in the modern day, where there's more countries and athletes competing which the tour has more depth in talent. However, the ATP is more competitive than the WTA since they lost a few great players in the past 1.5 years(henin, kim and maria). And Federer's achievement totally outclassed Serena in every areas.

It makes me laugh when people try to use Federer in order to support how great Serena is.
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You completely miss the point: yes, one can compare abilites, with a player with fewer slams having superior ability/skill at a particular catagory/technique than one with more slams. By your criteria, Federer's slam count would make him the greatest at all catagory/techniques, which would be an absurd theory at best.

Obviously, there are numerous former pros with specific abilities which outshine that of Federer, thus, there are skills SW possesses which Graf did not--or are superior to Graf.
 
LDVTennis said:
Movement:

Take Graf's movement at her peak, 1996. And, take Serena's movement now or at the same age as Graf was in 1996. No comparison. Graf wins this category by a mile. Much, much better footwork. Much, much better quickness. More dynamically efficient movement at top end speed. At the edge of her top end speed, when running to balls hit out wide, Serena often loses her balance. Compare that to Graf's ability to reach top end speed while maintaining her shoulders over her center of gravity.

Given all that, Graf has the clear edge here.
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this +1. graf moved better in her exo with clijsters @ wimbledon (after being off the tour for how long?) than i've ever seen serena move.
 
graf is more athletic than serena, more skillful too, serena simply is not talented enough (and that includes the 'serena slam' period) just not on grafs level
 
cuddles26 said:
Serena faces the deepest field in womens tennis history and still wins. That is why she is the greatest ever.
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So "deep" that a 39-year-old player, who retired 13 years ago and was only a top-5 player for a few months in her former career, is able to beat 3 current top-30 players within a week?

Or so "deep" that a mother of a young kid can come out of retirement after 2 years and win a slam tournament immediately?

:shock:
 
THUNDERVOLLEY said:
I notice you failed to mention a volley catagory. Graf was not great there, and never played the technique enough to rely on it as you see in the case of SW, who--unlike most of the baseline obsessing field--actually knows how to play it effectively, not just as some last ditch strategy or only coming in when forced to.
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Graf had a very, very solid volley.
She lacked a little bit the feel for when to come to the net and when not, though.
 
I simply don't understand some of you all's logic. Are we talking about ability of what a player can do as evidenced by a particular match or points in time? Or is it what a player has done over their career. Career wise it would certainly be Graf, she was the most consistently dominating over the longest period, although there are some caveats to this, such as Monica being stabbed.

But, if we are talking about one player, playing at her peak in one match vs any other player than Venus Williams is the best. Keep in mind we are talking about Venus playing at her best.

So for example the best Venus Williams vs the best Serena Williams.

1. Venus has the edge in speed and court coverage (she was the fastest player on tour till about 3 or 4 years ago when she decided she didn't want to play defesne any longer).

2. Venus has the edge in pace of the ball. If you don't believe me, just listen to Lindsay Davenport when she is commentating. I have heard her say on more than one occassion the Venus has the most pace of any player she has ever faced. She has also said that when Venus is in form and her forehand is working that Venus Williams is unbeatable! This coming from Lindsay Davenport, one of the biggest hitters of all time.

3. Venus has the advantage with her first serve. One of the fastest on record, and the most consistently fastest. She doesn't just hit one at 125 or above during a match, she can hit that speed twice or more in one game! Her first serve is also one of the heaviest in women's history.
And remember is a player is playing their best thay won't miss many first serves.

4. Venus has the advantage with returning serves. I think Serena can be more agressive on service returns at times, but Venus gets more returns in play and is more consistently aggressive on return.

5. And this is problably an inform Venus' most significant advantage. Venus improvises better than any womens player in history. She is the most flexible. She does things, again at her best, that you can not teach. This is most likely due to her incredible athleticism.

The only advantage I would give Serena is she hits a heavier ball and she has a little more mental toughness.

But Venus at her best is the best, period.

My inspiration as far as matches would be the 2001 US Open semi between Venus and Capriati and the final that year vs Serena. Or the 2000 US Open final vs Davenport. Thers a plethora of Wimbledon matches to choose from.
 
DRII said:
I simply don't understand some of you all's logic. Are we talking about ability of what a player can do as evidenced by a particular match or points in time? Or is it what a player has done over their career. Career wise it would certainly be Graf, she was the most consistently dominating over the longest period, although there are some caveats to this, such as Monica being stabbed.

But, if we are talking about one player, playing at her peak in one match vs any other player than Venus Williams is the best. Keep in mind we are talking about Venus playing at her best.

So for example the best Venus Williams vs the best Serena Williams.

1. Venus has the edge in speed and court coverage (she was the fastest player on tour till about 3 or 4 years ago when she decided she didn't want to play defesne any longer).

2. Venus has the edge in pace of the ball. If you don't believe me, just listen to Lindsay Davenport when she is commentating. I have heard her say on more than one occassion the Venus has the most pace of any player she has ever faced. She has also said that when Venus is in form and her forehand is working that Venus Williams is unbeatable! This coming from Lindsay Davenport, one of the biggest hitters of all time.

3. Venus has the advantage with her first serve. One of the fastest on record, and the most consistently fastest. She doesn't just hit one at 125 or above during a match, she can hit that speed twice or more in one game! Her first serve is also one of the heaviest in women's history.
And remember is a player is playing their best thay won't miss many first serves.

4. Venus has the advantage with returning serves. I think Serena can be more agressive on service returns at times, but Venus gets more returns in play and is more consistently aggressive on return.

5. And this is problably an inform Venus' most significant advantage. Venus improvises better than any womens player in history. She is the most flexible. She does things, again at her best, that you can not teach. This is most likely due to her incredible athleticism.

The only advantage I would give Serena is she hits a heavier ball and she has a little more mental toughness.

But Venus at her best is the best, period.

My inspiration as far as matches would be the 2001 US Open semi between Venus and Capriati and the final that year vs Serena. Or the 2000 US Open final vs Davenport. Thers a plethora of Wimbledon matches to choose from.
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There is more to tennis-greatness than pace. Yes Davenport hit a heavy ball, but that is just about all she did and could. Venus hits a heavy ball, is very athletic, but clueless on court when the going gets tough. Graf had power (forehand, serve), Graf had a neutralizer (attacking slice), Graf had incredible footwork, but above all, an attitude you just can put away with raw power. If you tag power to greatness, then Roger Federer isn't the greatest player either tenniswise.
 
Warriorroger said:
There is more to tennis-greatness than pace. Yes Davenport hit a heavy ball, but that is just about all she did and could. Venus hits a heavy ball, is very athletic, but clueless on court when the going gets tough. Graf had power (forehand, serve), Graf had a neutralizer (attacking slice), Graf had incredible footwork, but above all, an attitude you just can put away with raw power. If you tag power to greatness, then Roger Federer isn't the greatest player either tenniswise.
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I understand your point. Thats why I said if its achievement judged over time then Graf has my vote also.

But in one match with each player playing at their best; power and pace can be so overwhelming that the more craftier player can not use their weapons.
 
Aren't Serena/Davenport/Venus/Maybe Clijsters evolved versions of the Monica Seles: power-off-the-backhand/power-off-the-forehand prototype? And we're all aware how Steffi managed against that type of playing style in her prime.

Peak Davenport, for example, would crush Steffi.
 
DRII said:
I understand your point. Thats why I said if its achievement judged over time then Graf has my vote also.

But in one match with each player playing at their best; power and pace can be so overwhelming that the more craftier player can not use their weapons.
Click to expand...

We'll leave it at 50-50, because :) I like you!

Bertie B said:
Aren't Serena/Davenport/Venus/Maybe Clijsters evolved versions of the Monica Seles: power-off-the-backhand/power-off-the-forehand prototype? And we're all aware how Steffi managed against that type of playing style in her prime.


Peak Davenport, for example, would crush Steffi.
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They aren't evolved versions of Seles, to say Seles was all power is underrating her game, Seles game consist of unbelievable hit angles, anticipation and mental toughness, neither of the players you mentioned rank top in any of those categories. Matchup wise, Graf did a lot better against those power players than Monica, has to do with playing styles, Graf had more troubles with great retrievers and ball artists.. Peak Davenport would crush Steffi, yes, maybe if Steffi defaulted.
 
Warriorroger said:
We'll leave it at 50-50, because :) I like you!



They aren't evolved versions of Seles, to say Seles was all power is underrating her game, Seles game consist of unbelievable hit angles, anticipation and mental toughness, neither of the players you mentioned rank top in any of those categories. Matchup wise, Graf did a lot better against those power players than Monica, has to do with playing styles, Graf had more troubles with great retrievers and ball artists.. Peak Davenport would crush Steffi, yes, maybe if Steffi defaulted.
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thank you for bringing up seles' angles! you saved me the trouble! i think that seles' movement was also better than davenport and sw. seles's movement was good enough (although it wasn't amazing) to allow her to track down graf's forehand and contend with the slice bh.
 
THUNDERVOLLEY said:
I notice you failed to mention a volley catagory. Graf was not great there, and never played the technique enough to rely on it as you see in the case of SW, who--unlike most of the baseline obsessing field--actually knows how to play it effectively, not just as some last ditch strategy or only coming in when forced to.
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Seriously? Graf had a beautiful volley (though she didn't use it as much as she perhaps should have) and by far surpasses Serena in that category IMO.
 
THUNDERVOLLEY said:
I notice you failed to mention a volley catagory. Graf was not great there, and never played the technique enough to rely on it as you see in the case of SW, who--unlike most of the baseline obsessing field--actually knows how to play it effectively, not just as some last ditch strategy or only coming in when forced to.
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Are you kidding us? Serena better than Steffi on the volley?

Prove it. Show me visual evidence that Serena can hit any of these volleys:

Inside-out Forehand Volley: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD_VDbPzX2k

Forehand HalfVolley: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8wrBPwrajE

Backhand Running Volley: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-nJKLrod04

Backhand Drop Volley: http://www.youtube.com/user/LDVTennis#p/u/17/KPnHdgjB0fY

Backhand Half Volley:
http://www.youtube.com/user/LDVTennis#p/u/22/sBR7KJOKY0U

Backhand Lob Volley: http://www.youtube.com/user/LDVTennis#p/u/40/n9hdn02bH3g

Backhand High Volley: http://www.youtube.com/user/LDVTennis#p/u/56/FoX2Y9k04wg

These are some of the more difficult volleys to execute. If Serena is as good as you say she is on the volley, I'm sure you will have no problem finding the evidence you need. Start looking.

As for Steffi, her problem at the net was not technical or athletic. It was strategic. She had all the shots to have a good net game, from her slice backhand to her great racquet work. She was simply never taught and it clearly never came naturally to her to know how to play a pure net game.

By the way, before you go anointing Serena the greatest volleyer of all time, you may want to consider that the reason Serena does not approach the net more is that she has the same problem.

But, that's not Serena's only problem. Unlike Steffi, Serena lacks a true approach shot. And, no, a drive, be it a forehand or backhand, is not necessarily a good approach shot. When there were female players with passing shots (i.e., Chris Evert, Tracy Austin, and Steffi), a hard hit shot could get you killed at the net because you see it gets to your opponent before you can get to the net. Because the pace of the approach shot matters, that's why net players specialize in offspeed shots like slices and and even on the serve, a medium paced kick serve (e.g., Edberg, Rafter).

One more problem Serena has that Steffi didn't have. Serena's racquet work is questionable. She's never shown any ability to manipulate the racquet face that would lead one to believe that she has the touch required to play at the net. Show me one video clip where Serena's racquet work has been praised by anybody. I'll be posting two video clips on my youtube channel soon of BJK and Chris praising Steffi's racquet work. I also will be posting a clip of Steffi's high forehand volley. I'll update this post when I've posted those two video clips. In the meantime, we'll see what you can come up with.
 
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vandre said:
thank you for bringing up seles' angles! you saved me the trouble! i think that seles' movement was also better than davenport and sw. seles's movement was good enough (although it wasn't amazing) to allow her to track down graf's forehand and contend with the slice bh.
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You're welcome:)
 
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