While achievement wise Serena not greatest ever tennis wise maybe she is?

[Lionheart392]

Aren't Serena/Davenport/Venus/Maybe Clijsters evolved versions of the Monica Seles: power-off-the-backhand/power-off-the-forehand prototype? And we're all aware how Steffi managed against that type of playing style in her prime.

Peak Davenport, for example, would crush Steffi.

Peak Davenport crushed crippled Steffi by defeating her 6-4 7-5 in the 1999 Wimbledon final and only being offered 2 break points which she converted. Yeah what a total demolition... Graf is 8-6 against Davenport FYI.

 

[Bertie B]

They aren't evolved versions of Seles, to say Seles was all power is underrating her game, Seles game consist of unbelievable hit angles, anticipation and mental toughness, neither of the players you mentioned rank top in any of those categories. Matchup wise, Graf did a lot better against those power players than Monica, has to do with playing styles, Graf had more troubles with great retrievers and ball artists.. Peak Davenport would crush Steffi, yes, maybe if Steffi defaulted.

Seles has a poor h2h against the Power Players because you stayed around longer than Steffi. Graf retired in 1999, just as the "Big Babes" were coming into their own. The only developed "Power Player" by then was Davenport, at the time Graf was lucky to take a set off her.

Looking at Wimbeldon 1999 & the "Big Babes." Venus was still figuring things out. Lucic scared Steffi b4 folding mentally. Davenport spanked her as had became the norm in that matchup.

 

[Warriorroger]

Seles has a poor h2h against the Power Players because you stayed around longer than Steffi. Graf retired in 1999, just as the "Big Babes" were coming into their own. The only developed "Power Player" by then was Davenport, at the time Graf was lucky to take a set off her.

Looking at Wimbeldon 1999 & the "Big Babes." Venus was still figuring things out. Lucic scared Steffi b4 folding mentally. Davenport spanked as had became the norm in that matchup.

If that makes you feel better, so be it.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Are you kidding us? Serena better than Steffi on the volley?

As Joe Pike stated:

She lacked a little bit the feel for when to come to the net and when not, though.

Her feel for the approach and certainly control over the net was not the rose-colored glass/super-woman assessment you're using, and quite simply, she was no artist there or even what I would call a threat in the position (which is not answered by "then what does that make Serena?). When playing people with better command of the technique (Novotna or prime Sabatini), she is not the comic-book superhero character some make her out to be.

However, assess SW's overall technique and how she's used it against her toughest opponents. She's not the female version of Roddick--which is what you suggest in the comparison.

 

[Dave M]

I notice you failed to mention a volley catagory. Graf was not great there, and never played the technique enough to rely on it as you see in the case of SW, who--unlike most of the baseline obsessing field--actually knows how to play it effectively, not just as some last ditch strategy or only coming in when forced to.

Grafs' approach shots normally either turned out to be winners or set up very easy volleys, but to say Serena is a good volleyer?I have been lucky enough to watch them both up close and technique wise i'd say Steffi's was better than Serenas.I saw some stuff at WImbledon this year where Serena was being pulled all over the place when at the net with no apparant ability to put the ball away.

The field is definately much deeper than it has ever been (esp. compared to 15-20 years ago), but the current top players are a huge disappointment.

Nobody seems to be able to take the top spot and say "this is mine" other than Serena, the others just seem a bit dissapointing.

 

[LDVTennis]

Seles has a poor h2h against the Power Players because you stayed around longer than Steffi. Graf retired in 1999, just as the "Big Babes" were coming into their own. The only developed "Power Player" by then was Davenport, at the time Graf was lucky to take a set off her.

Looking at Wimbeldon 1999 & the "Big Babes." Venus was still figuring things out. Lucic scared Steffi b4 folding mentally. Davenport spanked as had became the norm in that matchup.

You may want to think before you speak.

Steffi defeated Davenport in the Quarters of the '99 French Open. Davenport was lucky to win a set in that match, after being down a break in the second set.

Steffi also defeated Davenport in the Final of the '98 Advanta. Why is this match significant? Because Davenport had just become the No. 1 player in the world for the very first time.

Here are the last two games of that match: http://www.youtube.com/user/LDVTennis#p/u/26/SzEzqeBgQz4.

Here's another clip from that match showing that Davenport couldn't overpower/neutralize Steffi, like she could overpower/neutralize Serena and Venus, by just hitting hard down the middle of the court: http://www.youtube.com/user/LDVTennis#p/u/31/fgbIXDYt8xk

As for the '99 Wimbledon final, if you are going to say one player spanked another, you might want to make sure the facts are on your side. In that final, Steffi had more winners than Davenport.

 

[LDVTennis]

As Joe Pike stated:



Her feel for the approach and certainly control over the net was not the rose-colored glass/super-woman assessment you're using, and quite simply, she was no artist there or even what I would call a threat in the position (which is not answered by "then what does that make Serena?). When playing people with better command of the technique (Novotna or prime Sabatini), she is not the comic-book superhero character some make her out to be.

However, assess SW's overall technique and how she's used it against her toughest opponents. She's not the female version of Roddick--which is what you suggest in the comparison.

I am going to surmise from all this that you don't have any visual evidence that Serena can hit all the volleys I demonstrated with clips of Steffi's volley.

I am also going to surmise from this that you have no video clips of any tennis expert praising Serena's racquet work.

We weren't comparing Steffi's technique or awareness at the net to Novotna's or Sabatini's. So, I'm not sure how that helps you make your case for Serena's better technique. Serena is not Novotna, is not Sabatini.

As for the Roddick/Serena comparison, it's funny that you think Serena would come out on top in this comparison. Roddick has an admirable slice backhand, which he uses to approach the net. He also has admirable stretch volleys, particularly off the forehand side. In short, he's a much better net player than Serena is.

 

[lambielspins]

Seles has a poor h2h against the Power Players because you stayed around longer than Steffi. Graf retired in 1999, just as the "Big Babes" were coming into their own. The only developed "Power Player" by then was Davenport, at the time Graf was lucky to take a set off her.

Looking at Wimbeldon 1999 & the "Big Babes." Venus was still figuring things out. Lucic scared Steffi b4 folding mentally. Davenport spanked her as had became the norm in that matchup.

You really know nothing. Graf in 1999 had been destroyed by injuries which had made her a complete shadow of herself since late 96. She was about 40% the player she had been from 1986-1996. She was even losing matches to Appelmans, Frazier, Halard, Sugiyama, Serna, and a slew of others she ripped apart 10 times out of 10 anytime she played such a player from 1986-1996. Yet Venus in 1 of her overall best years ever, despite not winning a slam, in 1999 when she won 6 or 7 titles, most of those tier 1, and was playing extremely well on all surfaces unlike today (the only surface she is maybe better today than then is grass) lost 2 out of 4 matches to Graf including their biggest meeting at Wimbledon. Serena in the year she won her first slam lost 1 out of 2, both matches going to 3 sets. Davenport who was in her absolute career peak in 98-2000 lost 3 out of 6 matches dating back to August 1998. If this warped version of Graf was doing this to these women imagine what in her prime she would be doing. Serena is the only one who had significant enough improvements left still to maybe really hang with a prime Graf, but Serena didnt last in her true prime form very long anyway.

If you think Davenport with her pitifully slow foot speed or hangdog mental approach, or Venus with her shaky as heck forehand, second serve, and pention for so many unforced errors, and inability to even play well on all surfaces, would even be able to compete on even terms with a prime Graf let alone dominate her you are a dimwit. Serena of 2002-2003 maybe, but that is the only Serena, the Serena of today vs prime Graf, ROTFL!!!

 

[Joe Pike]

Seles has a poor h2h against the Power Players because you stayed around longer than Steffi. Graf retired in 1999, just as the "Big Babes" were coming into their own. The only developed "Power Player" by then was Davenport, at the time Graf was lucky to take a set off her.

Looking at Wimbeldon 1999 & the "Big Babes." Venus was still figuring things out. Lucic scared Steffi b4 folding mentally. Davenport spanked her as had became the norm in that matchup.

Davenport won 2 of her 3 slams during the last 12 months of Graf's career. She was WTA #1 or #2 in all those months. Peak Lindsay!

In that period she played Graf six times.
Lost 3-6 6-7 in New Haven (August 1998 ).
Lost 6-4 3-6 4-6 (Philadelphia 1998 )
Won 6-1 2-6 6-3 (YEC 1998 )
Won 7-5 6-2 (Sydney 1999)
Lost 1-6 7-6 3-6 (FO 1999)
Won 6-4 7-5 (Wimbledon 1999)

3-3 in matches.
73-73 in games played.

When Graf was far from her former peak.

I always wonder how people like you feel when their dumb statements are thoroughly debunked publicly like this. Most probably they don't care - because they are used to it ...

 

[lambielspins]

Not to mention virtually all experts even picked way past his prime Graf to beat peak Lindsay in that Wimbledon final. Chris Evert admited to being a bit shocked that Lindsay won. Lindsay called it maybe the match of her life, and this was what it took to beat way past her prime Graf in a very tight 2 setter that was decided by a few points. How the heck would peak Davenport crush Steffi, when peak Davenport couldnt even crush a warped Steffi and lost half their matches in fact.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Grafs' approach shots normally either turned out to be winners or set up very easy volleys, but to say Serena is a good volleyer?I have been lucky enough to watch them both up close and technique wise i'd say Steffi's was better than Serenas.I saw some stuff at WImbledon this year where Serena was being pulled all over the place when at the net with no apparant ability to put the ball away.

You're referring to one tournament; i've watched both play in person, and as one with an interest in players who incorporate the technique, I was not particularly impressed by Graf's; again, Sabatini and Novotna were more impressive in that regard.

LDVTennis: I am going to surmise from all this that you don't have any visual evidence that Serena can hit all the volleys I demonstrated with clips of Steffi's volley.

Your would-be evidence proved my point; if you think your links were stellar examples, then you indeed wear rose-colored glasses, as we will see below.

I am also going to surmise from this that you have no video clips of any tennis expert praising Serena's racquet work.

..and where are your legion of experts proving Graf's allegedly superior ability to volley; anyone who actually watched the woman perform in person, knows it was not a featured weapon/technique in her heyday. Moreover, by introducing relevant (additional) comparisons (opponents of her era), this serves to wipe away the notion that her skills were of some legendary level of her period (which you claimed to do with links).

As for the Roddick/Serena comparison, it's funny that you think Serena would come out on top in this comparison. Roddick has an admirable slice backhand, which he uses to approach the net. He also has admirable stretch volleys, particularly off the forehand side. In short, he's a much better net player than Serena is.

..and there goes your argument. Roddick is one of the worst ever to attempt the technique, male or female; his heavy-footed, clumsy, lack of strategy or good hands is not to be considered for compliment by any serious mind. This born and bred baseliner only allowed this technique (If one can call it that in reference to the subject) to be introduced into his game, as a desperation move, and it shows to painful degrees.

SW not only has a long history of successfully using it (singles and doubles), but from carefully watching her choices, she has a strong sense on how to use it, as opposed to others who simply rush forward with textbook movements a rookie could anticipate. That she has used this to her advantage in singles and doubles (the latter against many specialists with careers invested in this kind of play), should lead anyone to conclude that SW is in a different class than Roddick.

More to the point, you have not proved SW's technique is inferior with the evidence you claim to seek for the opposing subject (although I can predict a certain kind of response...).

 

[Bertie B]

Davenport won 2 of her 3 slams during the last 12 months of Graf's career. She was WTA #1 or #2 in all those months. Peak Lindsay!

A player can hardly be described as "Peak" right after winning their first slam.

In 1999 Graf and Davenport played three times. Graf won in three sets at the FO. On the harder surfaces, Steffi was straight-setted. Peak Davenport was more late 1999 - early 2000.

Not to mention virtually all experts even picked way past his prime Graf to beat peak Lindsay in that Wimbledon final.

It's called hype.

 

[NamRanger]

There is more to tennis-greatness than pace. Yes Davenport hit a heavy ball, but that is just about all she did and could. Venus hits a heavy ball, is very athletic, but clueless on court when the going gets tough. Graf had power (forehand, serve), Graf had a neutralizer (attacking slice), Graf had incredible footwork, but above all, an attitude you just can put away with raw power. If you tag power to greatness, then Roger Federer isn't the greatest player either tenniswise.

Federer consistently hits the ball the hardest out of everyone in the top 10 with the exception of Del Potro.

 

[President]

Federer consistently hits the ball the hardest out of everyone in the top 10 with the exception of Del Potro.

That's not true. Along with Del Potro, Tsonga, Soderling, and Verdasco all hit harder than him on a consistent basis. Federer isn't great merely because he hits hard.

 

[LDVTennis]

You're referring to one tournament; i've watched both play in person, and as one with an interest in players who incorporate the technique, I was not particularly impressed by Graf's; again, Sabatini and Novotna were more impressive in that regard...

Your would-be evidence proved my point; if you think your links were stellar examples, then you indeed wear rose-colored glasses, as we will see below...

and where are your legion of experts proving Graf's allegedly superior ability to volley; anyone who actually watched the woman perform in person, knows it was not a featured weapon/technique in her heyday...

More to the point, you have not proved SW's technique is inferior with the evidence you claim to seek for the opposing subject (although I can predict a certain kind of response...).

Somehow, I doubt you ever watched Steffi play in person. As for your interest in technique, nothing you've said in this thread convinces me you know anything about technique. Of course, I could be wrong. So, here's a little quiz for you: What's the technical flaw in both Venus' and Serena's forehand volley?

My evidence proved your point? Your point was that Serena had better technique on the volley. My evidence showed that Steffi could hit a range of volleys. You've yet to provide us with any clips showing Serena's "magnificent" volleying skills.

Anyone who watched the woman perform in person? Not a featured weapon/technique in her heydey?

I first saw Serena play in 1999 at IW. I first saw Steffi play in 1989.

As to the rest, I take it you also don't know much about the history of the game either. In 1989, there were more serve and volleyers on the tour than there are now. There are almost no significant serve and volleyers in the women's game now. In 1989, there was Navratilova (perhaps, you've heard of her), Sukova, Shriver, Garrison, a young Zvereva. There was also a number of players with all-court ability to play at the net, for example, Lori McNeil and a young Sabatini. Given these sorts of challenges, the better baseliners of Steffi's era had developed passing shots and could volley themselves. Both Chris and Steffi developed good net games in order to counteract the net games of their chief opponents.

By 1996, the era of the female serve and volley player was almost over, but you still had two excellent serve and volley players in Novotna and Zvereva, a good serve and volley player in Tauziat, and a great all-court player in Sanchez-Vicario. Take a look at the 1996 French Open. The match is on youtube. Despite the fact that this match is played on clay, there are more points won at the net in that match than there are in almost any match played between two top players in today's women's game. On clay, Sanchez and Graf pushed each other not just side to side, but up to the net with short slices and dropshots. As a result, there is some fabulous shotmaking in that match from both of them.

There's no one like Sanchez in today's game. Novotna was the last pure serve and volley player. Today's women's game is populated largely by ballbashers with their monotonous side to side baseline battles. If volleying was no longer a "featured technique" in your words by 1996, it's completely extinct now. With its passing, I'm afraid we also lost a host of other shots --- lobs, dropshots, short slices, passing shots. Whatever success anyone has at the net today is almost completely due to the fact that most players don't know how to lob or pass effectively. More or less, that is what explains any success Venus or Serena have had with their net game.

Finally, in my first post in this thread I said nothing about the quality of Serena's volleying technique. You brought up the whole subject of Serena's volleying skills being superior to Graf's. I was willing to call it even based simply on the fact that neither had a strategically-developed net game. In response to your claim, I showed you visual examples of Steffi's magnificent volleying skills. You've yet to show us any examples of Serena's technique. How predictable of you is that? By the way, we're still waiting for those examples...

 

[Lionheart392]

Serena and Venus are both capable volleyers but their success is mainly because they know when to come in and their sheer size (especially Venus) makes them an extremely threatening presence at the net. Perhaps also the 1 dimensional ball bashers have no idea how to deal with a volley. In any case I think they are good volleyers but their actual technique isn't stellar. It gets the job done which is the main thing but it isn't technically brilliant. Graf did have a beautiful volley, and yes it wasn't a main part of her game but she showed on several occasions that she could execute it brilliantly if she chose to. I can't actually believe anyone would suggest Serena is a better volleyer.

 

[LDVTennis]

A player can hardly be described as "Peak" right after winning their first slam.

In 1999 Graf and Davenport played three times. Graf won in three sets at the FO. On the harder surfaces, Steffi was straight-setted. Peak Davenport was more late 1999 - early 2000.

Good one. Are you always this funny? :razz:

 

[DRII]

You really know nothing. Graf in 1999 had been destroyed by injuries which had made her a complete shadow of herself since late 96. She was about 40% the player she had been from 1986-1996. She was even losing matches to Appelmans, Frazier, Halard, Sugiyama, Serna, and a slew of others she ripped apart 10 times out of 10 anytime she played such a player from 1986-1996. Yet Venus in 1 of her overall best years ever, despite not winning a slam, in 1999 when she won 6 or 7 titles, most of those tier 1, and was playing extremely well on all surfaces unlike today (the only surface she is maybe better today than then is grass) lost 2 out of 4 matches to Graf including their biggest meeting at Wimbledon. Serena in the year she won her first slam lost 1 out of 2, both matches going to 3 sets. Davenport who was in her absolute career peak in 98-2000 lost 3 out of 6 matches dating back to August 1998. If this warped version of Graf was doing this to these women imagine what in her prime she would be doing. Serena is the only one who had significant enough improvements left still to maybe really hang with a prime Graf, but Serena didnt last in her true prime form very long anyway.

If you think Davenport with her pitifully slow foot speed or hangdog mental approach, or Venus with her shaky as heck forehand, second serve, and pention for so many unforced errors, and inability to even play well on all surfaces, would even be able to compete on even terms with a prime Graf let alone dominate her you are a dimwit. Serena of 2002-2003 maybe, but that is the only Serena, the Serena of today vs prime Graf, ROTFL!!!

How about you get your facts straight! 1999 was not Venus' best year. Venus dominated women's tennis in 2000-2001 with 4 slams and an olympic singles gold. Her prime was the summer of 2001 when she finally developed some technique to go along with her superior athleticism. The fact that a 1999 Venus, a superior athlete with amazing power yet an unforced error machine, beat Graf twice shows who is the best when playing their best.

Now judged over time Graf is the best in women's history, if you don't count doubles titles. But don't dismiss Venus Williams!

 

[boredone3456]

How about you get your facts straight! 1999 was not Venus' best year. Venus dominated women's tennis in 2000-2001 with 4 slams and an olympic singles gold. Her prime was the summer of 2001 when she finally developed some technique to go along with her superior athleticism. The fact that a 1999 Venus, a superior athlete with amazing power yet an unforced error machine, beat Graf twice shows who is the best when playing their best.

Now judged over time Graf is the best in women's history, if you don't count doubles titles. But don't dismiss Venus Williams!

He said one of her best ever...not her actual best ever, did you read the post? No one thinks 1999 was Venus's best year, a top 5 years for her....likely yes.

 

[nikdom]

wow....going on 4 pages. That's a lot of time wasted on discussing the WTA.

 

[flyinghippos101]

For the most part, I agree with your pretty detailed analysis but in terms of movement, Graf takes it. Not only do I think Serena actually has horrible movement but she's not even in the same spectrum as Graf. Granted, Graf never really "gracefully floated" on the court, she's leaps an bounds beyond Serena's footwork and movement. When Serena moves, her feet look incredibly cluttered and besides side-shuffling on the baseline, she's horrible at setting herself for the numerous short balls she gets or drops.

 

[grafselesfan]

A player can hardly be described as "Peak" right after winning their first slam.

In 1999 Graf and Davenport played three times. Graf won in three sets at the FO. On the harder surfaces, Steffi was straight-setted. Peak Davenport was more late 1999 - early 2000.

You are a complete fool. Davenport won only 3 slams her whole career. They came from September 1998-January 2000. So a mere 3 slam winner was not in her prime during the 10 month span she won 2 of her only 3 slams ever, which came out of an only 16 month span she won all 3 of her slams. ROTFL!!!!! This sure as heck was peak Davenport, you are smoking crack if you think otherwise.

If we want to limit players to their peak than peak Graf was 1988-1989. So Davenport was at her absolute peak and was playing an injury wracked 30 year old women who was 10 years from her own "peak". Hmmm I wonder who was closer to their primes at that point Davenport or Graf? Yet Davenport still had a hard time beating Graf durings this time period, losing to her twice on hard courts, 1 of their 2 slams meetings, and 3 of their 6 meetings overall. Give up now before you make a fool of yourself further.

 

[DRII]

He said one of her best ever...not her actual best ever, did you read the post? No one thinks 1999 was Venus's best year, a top 5 years for her....likely yes.

And your point or his point is... what? Why even bring up a 1999 Venus, clearly she was not at her peak then, yet still managed to beat Graf twice!

I repeat, i dont get, or do not agree with, most of you all's logic when it comes to this thread.

If you have 2 players, both in the upper echelon of women's tennis history, playing at their best... 9 times out of 10 the more offensive player will win a match on that day. Venus Williams has the most weapons (power, speed, pace, athleticism) so if she is playing at her best she will beat anyone on any given day. Anyone!

Now we all know that no player plays their best all the time. So over a career some modern players can certainly be judged to have been 'better' than Venus Williams; Graf is at the top of that list followed by Navortilova (sic), perhap Serena, perhaps Monica or Chris.

But all at their best: Venus wins hands down!

 

[flying24]

Aren't Serena/Davenport/Venus/Maybe Clijsters evolved versions of the Monica Seles: power-off-the-backhand/power-off-the-forehand prototype? And we're all aware how Steffi managed against that type of playing style in her prime.

Peak Davenport, for example, would crush Steffi.

Such a short post with so much fail in it that is isnt even funny. First of all what evidence do you have that Serena, Davenport, Venus, or Clijsters are "evolved versions of Seles". None of those women played Seles in her prime, and other than Serena none are as accomplished. Kim Clijsters an evolved Seles!?! ROTFL!! Did you know Kim lost all her matches with Seles even though she played Seles when she was a hot up and comer and Seles in the twilight of her career and many many years past her prime.

We are all well aware how Graf did against that type of playing style in her prime!?! Yet indeed we are, she crushed it. When it comes to Seles she has never beaten Graf on any faster surface, a combined 0-7 lifetime on decoturf type court, indoors, or grass. By contrast Graf has beaten Seles on all surfaces. Even at Monica's dominant peak from 91-early 93 when she overall domianted the game, she was 2-3 vs Graf, two of her losses being brutally one sided ass whoopings, and both her wins being very tough 3 setters. This despite 4 of the 5 meetings being on slower surfaces, the only kind of surfaces Monica had any chance vs Graf. Capriati who is probably a better power player than Clijsters (note I didnt say better player, but better power player) and has the same achievements as Davenport (as well as winning all 3 of her slams during a time period Davenport was near the very top and managed 0 slams) was a measley 1-10 vs Graf, losing to a nearly retired Graf 6-1, 6-0 in their final meeting. Pierce hits the ball with comparable power to the women you mentioned and overall was dominated by Graf as well, even though she had a couple nice wins.

Peak Davenport would crush Steffi!?! Is that why absolute peak Davenport had a tough time even beating Graf in the twilight of her career in 98 and 99. Here is a tip for you in the future. If you know absolutely NOTHING about womens tennis or something else best to keep quiet and say nothing about it rather then exposing yourself for all to see.

 

[flying24]

And your point or his point is... what? Why even bring up a 1999 Venus, clearly she was not at her peak then, yet still managed to beat Graf twice!

You think 1999 was peak Graf, ROTFL!!! It doesnt matter whether or not Venus was at her peak, she was much closer to it than Graf was, and Graf's prime landed 10+ years, Venus lasted 2 or 3 years. The fact is Venus was much closer to her best, a level she hardly lasted at anytime when she did reach it anyway, than was Graf, and Graf still played Venus evenly in 1999 and won their most important meeting.

Prime Graf >>>> prime Venus. Grass is the only surface Venus would have any chance vs prime Graf. Imagine Venus vs Graf on clay or rebound ace, that would be a laugher, actually Venus is pretty much a laugher for a top player on those surfaces period. Decoturf and indoors she could hang in a bit more but would lose almost everytime as well. Venus has only made the U.S Open final 3 times in her career, and hasnt for 7 years now (if you bring up the prime thing it just proves my point about Venus's ultra short prime) and other than her year end title last year has hardly done anything much in fall. Her legacy as it stands now will be a one event wonder at Wimbledon, and even there she falls short of someone like Graf.

If you have 2 players, both in the upper echelon of women's tennis history, playing at their best... 9 times out of 10 the more offensive player will win a match on that day. Venus Williams has the most weapons (power, speed, pace, athleticism) so if she is playing at her best she will beat anyone on any given day. Anyone!

Where you fail is in your assumption Venus is in the "upper echelon" of womens tennis history. This is definitely not the case. She clearly is not top 10 all time, and probably not even top 15.

Venus does not posses the most of all those things you say either. Serena has more power and pace, Connolly for her own time had more, Graf has more off the forehand and a much better second serve, Davenport has atleast as much- how else can she be so competitive with Venus their whole careers when she is slow as a turtle and with an iffy mental game, Seles in her prime had atleast as much off the ground, Pierce as well (even a 30 year old Pierce was matching power with Venus on grass her worst surface by far and Venus's best). Athleticsm and speed? Graf, Clijsters, Henin, Serena, Court, Mandlikova, Goolagong, Navratilova, are some examples of women with just as much as Venus, if not more in some cases.

Now we all know that no player plays their best all the time. So over a career some modern players can certainly be judged to have been 'better' than Venus Williams; Graf is at the top of that list followed by Navortilova (sic), perhap Serena, perhaps Monica or Chris.

"perhaps Monica or Chris"? Hahahaha. Here is your list of just modern day players who are judged to be better than Venus and rank over her alltime: Graf, Navratilova, Court, Evert, Seles, King, Henin, Serena, Bueno, possibly Goolagong. Venus is possibly not even top 10 in just the Open Era, certainly not top 8.

It is obvious you live in a little dream world when it comes to Venus.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Somehow, I doubt you ever watched Steffi play in person.

Speak for yourself, little one. I--like some of the TT members were around to attend events featuring generations of players older than Graf's. Your comment smells of one who hopes to drag others to your level of inexperience.

As for your interest in technique, nothing you've said in this thread convinces me you know anything about technique. Of course, I could be wrong. So, here's a little quiz for you: What's the technical flaw in both Venus' and Serena's forehand volley?

You're attempting an internet tree-marking contest and sidestepping the issues. No dodge and no sale, boy.

My evidence proved your point? Your point was that Serena had better technique on the volley. My evidence showed that Steffi could hit a range of volleys. You've yet to provide us with any clips showing Serena's "magnificent" volleying skills.[/quote]

You may be young....or unemployed...something which allows you to have much spare time to persue youtube at length, but others have busy schedules. Moreover, if you were worth a grain of the half-effort of your posts, you would have been able to present an argument with truth on your side. Clearly, that did not occur, as the veracity of your rose-colored dreams are questionable.

Finally, in my first post in this thread I said nothing about the quality of Serena's volleying technique.

A failing on your part; if one wants to paint a broad stroke of inferiority about a player--as you have--then you should be prepared to study every technique--not just the one serving your platform, hence the reason I mentioned volleying in the first place.

I showed you visual examples of Steffi's magnificent volleying skills.

Only illogic and bias could ever refer to Graf's volleying as "magnificent" isolated to her generation, or considered on the wide field of tennis history. This kind of fantasy comment robs you of your already hair-thin credibilty on the Graf matter.

 

[flying24]

You're referring to one tournament; i've watched both play in person, and as one with an interest in players who incorporate the technique, I was not particularly impressed by Graf's; again, Sabatini and Novotna were more impressive in that regard.

Yes but you are attempting to compare Serena's volleying to Graf's not Novotna's to Graf, correct? Serena certainly does not volley as well as Novotna or even a peak Sabatini, so whether or not Graf does is moot to that comparision.

 

[boredone3456]

And your point or his point is... what? Why even bring up a 1999 Venus, clearly she was not at her peak then, yet still managed to beat Graf twice!

I repeat, i dont get, or do not agree with, most of you all's logic when it comes to this thread.

If you have 2 players, both in the upper echelon of women's tennis history, playing at their best... 9 times out of 10 the more offensive player will win a match on that day. Venus Williams has the most weapons (power, speed, pace, athleticism) so if she is playing at her best she will beat anyone on any given day. Anyone!

Now we all know that no player plays their best all the time. So over a career some modern players can certainly be judged to have been 'better' than Venus Williams; Graf is at the top of that list followed by Navortilova (sic), perhap Serena, perhaps Monica or Chris.

But all at their best: Venus wins hands down!

yeah ok..if anyones logic makes no sense its yours. Venus was starting to peak in 1999 and hit her stride head on in 2000. In 1999 Venus won several big titles and was a threat on every single surface, something that by 2003 you couldn't even say about her anymore. Also, you bring up that Venus managed to beat Graf twice in 1999...well Graf beat her 3 times that year so what exactly does that tell you? Graf won the French that year but Venus was overall closer to her own peak than a worn down by injuries Graf was by that point. The H2H between the 2 ended at 3-2 in favor of Graf. Venus at her best would beat anyone at theirs, closer to her best Venus couldn't even hold a winning H2H with Steffi well past her own...so sorry. Yes Graf even worn down was a force, but if Venus had to struggle against and not lead the H2H against her how would she do against Graf of 1995-1996, 1988-1989?

As for the Upper Echelon Statement, Venus is NOT in the upper Echelon of the womens game in history and never will be, she isn't even better than Maria Bueno, Justine Henin and maybe only Marginally better arguably than Evonne Goolagong, let alone anywhere near the true upper echelon where Graf, Nav, Court and Evert sit. Venus in her career never really played a player with the true shot Variety some of them had except for a past her prime Graf. Venus has power and movement, but overall less variety in her game than Graf, Court, Evert, and Nav did, and that alone would do her in roughly half the time especially since she makes way more unforced errors in a match then they did. She would give them quite a few points and unlike many today they would not gift them all right back with equally as many unforced errors.

The only surface that Venus at her best would be able to really hold her own with any of the people you listed would be on grass, I give you she would likely beat Monica there, probably do decently well against Evert and be able to hold her own against Graf and Nav, But on clay even playing her best tennis ever she would get beaten probably by everyone on that list except possibly Navratilova because on clay shot variety, not power, is a bigger factor. On hard courts Seles and Graf could handle her power quite well in their respective bests, and I am sure Chris and Martina would be able to find away to beat her to. Venus was playing phenominal tennis in 2002-early 2003 and yet she lost to her sister in 5 slam finals, unless she didn't play her best in any of those finals...and I would expect her to play her best in at least one of them by your standards and she still lost them all. If your a Venus fan thats cool, but by overhyping her to this level you do her or yourself no favors what-so-ever.

 

[Joe Pike]

How about you get your facts straight! 1999 was not Venus' best year. Venus dominated women's tennis in 2000-2001 with 4 slams and an olympic singles gold. Her prime was the summer of 2001 when she finally developed some technique to go along with her superior athleticism. The fact that a 1999 Venus, a superior athlete with amazing power yet an unforced error machine, beat Graf twice shows who is the best when playing their best.

Now judged over time Graf is the best in women's history, if you don't count doubles titles. But don't dismiss Venus Williams!

In 2001 Graf was gone, Hingis over-the-hill, Davenport injured a lot.
So no wonder Venus could "peak".

In summer of 1999 an old Steffi Graf - with a bum knee - overtook 19-year-old Venus in the rankings. Same Venus who won 6 titles that year (same as in 2000 or 2001). Do you really want to tell us that Steffi was closer to her peak in 1999 than Venus??????
Please, don't embarrass yourself ...

 

[Joe Pike]

And your point or his point is... what? Why even bring up a 1999 Venus, clearly she was not at her peak then, yet still managed to beat Graf twice!

I repeat, i dont get, or do not agree with, most of you all's logic when it comes to this thread.

If you have 2 players, both in the upper echelon of women's tennis history, playing at their best... 9 times out of 10 the more offensive player will win a match on that day. Venus Williams has the most weapons (power, speed, pace, athleticism) so if she is playing at her best she will beat anyone on any given day. Anyone!

Now we all know that no player plays their best all the time. So over a career some modern players can certainly be judged to have been 'better' than Venus Williams; Graf is at the top of that list followed by Navortilova (sic), perhap Serena, perhaps Monica or Chris.

But all at their best: Venus wins hands down!

Have you ever watched peak Graf play?
No?

So why do you act so silly here?

 

[grafselesfan]

In 2001 Graf was gone, Hingis over-the-hill, Davenport injured a lot.
So no wonder Venus could "peak".

In summer of 1999 an old Steffi Graf - with a bum knee - overtook 19-year-old Venus in the rankings. Same Venus who won 6 titles that year (same as in 2000 or 2001). Do you really want to tell us that Steffi was closer to her peak in 1999 than Venus??????
Please, don't embarrass yourself ...

Venus is not up with Graf in history but you are also undervalueing her somewhat. In 2001 Hingis was still pretty good, although mentally she had lost it. Capriati was playing her best tennis ever. Davenport was a great player especialy on fast surfaces still then, the Williams were just too good and bad matchups for her. Serena herself was already pretty good, even if mentally not completely there yet. Henin, Clijsters, Mauresmo, were all on the rise, and Seles was still a dangerous factor. 2000 was pretty much the same except Davenport was even a bit better, Henin and Clijsters were not really on the rise yet, Capriati less of a threat, but Pierce was a big threat unlike 2001. In 2002 and 2003 the field was very deep and Venus dominated everyone except Serena.

That said DR11 and Bertie B are obviously clueless posters who are probably 12 and have never watched many of the players they speak of other than on youtube videos. The fact DR11 thinks Venus's best was the greatest ever overall when at her peak she lost 5 slam finals in a row to Serena, already speaks to his/her cluelessness.

 

[Chadwixx]

Serena herself was already pretty good, even if mentally not completely there yet.

Any word on the eta?

 

[Joe Pike]

Venus is not up with Graf in history but you are also undervalueing her somewhat. In 2001 Hingis was still pretty good, although mentally she had lost it. Capriati was playing her best tennis ever. Davenport was a great player especialy on fast surfaces still then, the Williams were just too good and bad matchups for her. Serena herself was already pretty good, even if mentally not completely there yet. Henin, Clijsters, Mauresmo, were all on the rise, and Seles was still a dangerous factor. ...

At the beginning of 2001 Clijsters was only 17 and Henin 18 years old!
Each had 18 losses that year, to players like Garbin, Montolio, Tulyaganova, Diaz-Olivia, Kremer, Gagliardi.
Capriati had 14 losses, against Raymond, Kuti Kis and - twice - Testud among others. Jenny was the #2 player in 2001, though. That alone says a lot ...

 

[grafselesfan]

At the beginning of 2001 Clijsters was only 17 and Henin 18 years old!
Each had 18 losses that year, to players like Garbin, Montolio, Tulyaganova, Diaz-Olivia, Kremer, Gagliardi.
Capriati had 14 losses, against Raymond, Kuti Kis and - twice - Testud among others. Jenny was the #2 player in 2001, though. That alone says a lot ...

I did not say Henin and Clijsters were in their primes, I just said they were already very dangerous and legit outside contenders. You didnt even mention the fact both reached a slam final that year, and went to 3 sets each in their first ever slam final. Capriati overachieved bigtime in the slams, and got very lucky to somehow win as many as 3 in that little stretch. I have said that many times on other threads. Still doesnt change that the early 2000s field overall was a very deep one, and Venus led it for a couple years, especialy on faster surfaces. Of course this doesnt mean Venus is a Graf, but give her her due as well.

 

[LDVTennis]

Speak for yourself, little one. I--like some of the TT members were around to attend events featuring generations of players older than Graf's. Your comment smells of one who hopes to drag others to your level of inexperience.

You're attempting an internet tree-marking contest and sidestepping the issues. No dodge and no sale, boy.

You may be young....or unemployed...something which allows you to have much spare time to persue youtube at length, but others have busy schedules. Moreover, if you were worth a grain of the half-effort of your posts, you would have been able to present an argument with truth on your side. Clearly, that did not occur, as the veracity of your rose-colored dreams are questionable.

A failing on your part; if one wants to paint a broad stroke of inferiority about a player--as you have--then you should be prepared to study every technique--not just the one serving your platform, hence the reason I mentioned volleying in the first place.

Only illogic and bias could ever refer to Graf's volleying as "magnificent" isolated to her generation, or considered on the wide field of tennis history. This kind of fantasy comment robs you of your already hair-thin credibilty on the Graf matter.

Brilliant! You can't prove your own point. You can't even write a sensible sentence. So, this is what you do?

Well, at least I accomplished something by carrying out this argument with you as far as I could. I proved what an idiot you are.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Brilliant! You can't prove your own point. You can't even write a sensible sentence. So, this is what you do?

Well, at least I accomplished something by carrying out this argument with you as far as I could. I proved what an idiot you are.

The point was proven with your dodge attempts, tree-marking, and avoidance of relevant examples in order to pretend Graf was some "magnificent" volleyer, which your clips do a poor job in proving, while failng to prove SW is an inferior volleyer.

But you need a tennis God, so in your mind, you selected Graf and made an argument which would place her in an all-time list of the technique, which could have been settled with quality evidence--if the premise was not so absurd.

 

[flying24]

The point was proven with your dodge attempts, tree-marking, and avoidance of relevant examples in order to pretend Graf was some "magnificent" volleyer, which your clips do a poor job in proving, while failng to prove SW is an inferior volleyer.

But you need a tennis God, so in your mind, you selected Graf and made an argument which would place her in an all-time list of the technique, which could have been settled with quality evidence--if the premise was not so absurd.

Why do you keep bringing up Sabatini and Novotna though. Serena herself is a much inferior volleyer to Novotna (the greatest womens volleyer since Navratilova without doubt) and even peak Sabatini. So if you are comparing Serena to Graf, what relevance is it if Graf is also behind those in volleying? I have yet to see you explain why you think Serena is a better volleyer than Graf.

Among players of the last 10 years alone Lisa Raymond, Venus, Mauresmo, Sam Stosur, Hingis, Tauziat, Zvereva, and Henin all clearly volley better than Serena also, along with probably some others I have missed. Nobody is saying Graf is the volleying goddess of all time, but neither is Serena, there are quite a few event in even the recent baseline-obsessed fields who volley better. So this hardly shows Serena is the better of the two in that aspect of the game.

 

[dannykl]

Why do you keep bringing up Sabatini and Novotna though. Serena herself is a much inferior volleyer to Novotna (the greatest womens volleyer since Navratilova without doubt) and even peak Sabatini. So if you are comparing Serena to Graf, what relevance is it if Graf is also behind those in volleying? I have yet to see you explain why you think Serena is a better volleyer than Graf.

Nobody is saying Graf is the volleying goddess of all time, but neither is Serena, there are quite a few event in even the recent baseline-obsessed fields who volley better. So this hardly shows Serena is the better of the two in that aspect of the game.

Exactly, THUNDERVOLLEY just keeps avioding answering this question and keeps failing to provide points or evidence to support his/her cliam that Serena is a better volleyer than Steffi.

THUNDERVOLLEY, why you keep mentioning Jana or Gabi having better volley than Steffi when people are disgussing who has better volley between Steffi and Serena?

LDV makes a great effort to explain why he thinks Graf is a better volleyer than Serena. I think it is very persuasive. What you have offered in backing your claim? Nothing.

If you can't even articulate an reasonable argument to back your claim, you'd better admit it.

 

[boredone3456]

The point was proven with your dodge attempts, tree-marking, and avoidance of relevant examples in order to pretend Graf was some "magnificent" volleyer, which your clips do a poor job in proving, while failng to prove SW is an inferior volleyer.

But you need a tennis God, so in your mind, you selected Graf and made an argument which would place her in an all-time list of the technique, which could have been settled with quality evidence--if the premise was not so absurd.

I find it funny that you say LDV cannot provide any evidence that Serena is an inferior Vollyer to Graf while at the same time you yourself provide no actual evidence that she is better apart from going around in circles with your statements.

 

[Bertie B]

Good one. Are you always this funny? :razz:

Isn't this special, the curator of Steffi Graf - The Shrine, begging for objectivity...rich.

 

[nat75]

Exactly, THUNDERVOLLEY just keeps avioding answering this question and keeps failing to provide points or evidence to support his/her cliam that Serena is a better volleyer than Steffi.

THUNDERVOLLEY, why you keep mentioning Jana or Gabi having better volley than Steffi when people are disgussing who has better volley between Steffi and Serena?

LDV makes a great effort to explain why he thinks Graf is a better volleyer than Serena. I think it is very persuasive. What you have offered in backing your claim? Nothing.

If you can't even articulate an reasonable argument to back your claim, you'd better admit it.

That's because Thundervolley thinks (in his mind of course) that Serena is a better volleyer than Jana and peak Gaby.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Isn't this special, the curator of Steffi Graf - The Shrine, begging for objectivity...rich.

Exactly; even the most elementary of debate participants realizes inflated fan-worship of Graf completely removes any fragment of objectivity/believability in whatever is presented by this member....particularly when that which was presented does not support its use as evidence for the member. As noted earlier, it simply proves the member incorrect for displaying such an unimpressive series of clips as the would-be "winning point," while failing to provide evidence against the object of criticism (SW).

 

[DRII]

Venus is not up with Graf in history but you are also undervalueing her somewhat. In 2001 Hingis was still pretty good, although mentally she had lost it. Capriati was playing her best tennis ever. Davenport was a great player especialy on fast surfaces still then, the Williams were just too good and bad matchups for her. Serena herself was already pretty good, even if mentally not completely there yet. Henin, Clijsters, Mauresmo, were all on the rise, and Seles was still a dangerous factor. 2000 was pretty much the same except Davenport was even a bit better, Henin and Clijsters were not really on the rise yet, Capriati less of a threat, but Pierce was a big threat unlike 2001. In 2002 and 2003 the field was very deep and Venus dominated everyone except Serena.

That said DR11 and Bertie B are obviously clueless posters who are probably 12 and have never watched many of the players they speak of other than on youtube videos. The fact DR11 thinks Venus's best was the greatest ever overall when at her peak she lost 5 slam finals in a row to Serena, already speaks to his/her cluelessness.

I have tried to explain my reasoning on this subject as my previous post attest to...

Its clear your Seles, Graf worship is a little over the top and perhaps doesn't speak well of your cognitive capacity, as evidenced by your screen name!

But please try and get a clue and realize that 'cluelessness' is not a word... and that Venus Williams was not at her peak in 2002!

As I've said Venus peaked between 2000 and 2001. Her 2001 summer was the most dominating span (although short) I have seen of any woman tennis player. She started to wane after that, I distinctly remember this because the 9-11 attacks happened shortly after the US Open that year.

And furthermore all those losses in 2002-03 in slam finals were to Serena and that was more of a mental/emotional block for Venus and the fact that Serena was getting better, and as we have witnessed recently, Serena has little emotional regard for anyone she is playing even a sibling.

So how about you try and not let nostalgia cloud your judgment!

 

[DRII]

Have you ever watched peak Graf play?
No?

So why do you act so silly here?

Its not about being silly. Reasonable people can disagree.

I've seen a peak Graf and a peak Williams.

In my opinion Venus has it, point blank.

 

[DRII]

You think 1999 was peak Graf, ROTFL!!! It doesnt matter whether or not Venus was at her peak, she was much closer to it than Graf was, and Graf's prime landed 10+ years, Venus lasted 2 or 3 years. The fact is Venus was much closer to her best, a level she hardly lasted at anytime when she did reach it anyway, than was Graf, and Graf still played Venus evenly in 1999 and won their most important meeting.

Prime Graf >>>> prime Venus. Grass is the only surface Venus would have any chance vs prime Graf. Imagine Venus vs Graf on clay or rebound ace, that would be a laugher, actually Venus is pretty much a laugher for a top player on those surfaces period. Decoturf and indoors she could hang in a bit more but would lose almost everytime as well. Venus has only made the U.S Open final 3 times in her career, and hasnt for 7 years now (if you bring up the prime thing it just proves my point about Venus's ultra short prime) and other than her year end title last year has hardly done anything much in fall. Her legacy as it stands now will be a one event wonder at Wimbledon, and even there she falls short of someone like Graf.



Where you fail is in your assumption Venus is in the "upper echelon" of womens tennis history. This is definitely not the case. She clearly is not top 10 all time, and probably not even top 15.

Venus does not posses the most of all those things you say either. Serena has more power and pace, Connolly for her own time had more, Graf has more off the forehand and a much better second serve, Davenport has atleast as much- how else can she be so competitive with Venus their whole careers when she is slow as a turtle and with an iffy mental game, Seles in her prime had atleast as much off the ground, Pierce as well (even a 30 year old Pierce was matching power with Venus on grass her worst surface by far and Venus's best). Athleticsm and speed? Graf, Clijsters, Henin, Serena, Court, Mandlikova, Goolagong, Navratilova, are some examples of women with just as much as Venus, if not more in some cases.



"perhaps Monica or Chris"? Hahahaha. Here is your list of just modern day players who are judged to be better than Venus and rank over her alltime: Graf, Navratilova, Court, Evert, Seles, King, Henin, Serena, Bueno, possibly Goolagong. Venus is possibly not even top 10 in just the Open Era, certainly not top 8.

It is obvious you live in a little dream world when it comes to Venus.

I so disagree with almost everything you posted. Are we watching the same game?

First off are you and boredone3456 the same person? If not, I'm sure the two of you have had relations.

And let me try to explain to you and boredone. Venus Williams will most definitely be in The International Tennis Hall of Fame regardless of you all's opinion and near insulting summary of her tennis achievements!

Deal with it.

 

[boredone3456]

I so disagree with almost everything you posted. Are we watching the same game?

First off are you and boredone3456 the same person? If not, I'm sure the two of you have had relations.

And let me try to explain to you and boredone. Venus Williams will most definitely be in The International Tennis Hall of Fame regardless of you all's opinion and near insulting summary of her tennis achievements!

Deal with it.

LOL no we are not the same person, I have more to do than sit here on two different accounts and rack up 1500+ posts on each one, me and flying agree sometimes, and at times disagree, just because we happen to have the same opinion on a particular topic doesn't mean we are the same person. We happen to agree on things more often then not yes, but that is simply because we think along the same lines, not because we are the same person.

Also, I never said Venus wasn't going to be in the hall of fame, the hall of fame is not the upper echelon in the history of the sport in my mind, its a group who have achieved a variety of achievements but everybody within the hall is not on equal footing with one another in terms of overall achievement. When you said upper Echelon, I inferred that to mean top 5 or 10 all time, that is my opinion on what upper echelon means, if all the hall of fame is upper echelon that I guess a player like Gabriela Sabatini or Jana Novotna is upper Echelon as they are both within the hall. The hall of fame is one thing, the Upper Echelon of tennis is another.

Also, a player at their peak is not just at their peak because they are winning slams, Venus for 2002 and most of 2003 was clearly the 2nd best player in the world and still playing right along with her 2000-2001 level, the problem was she had a new rival in her now prime sister was at the time was just point blank better than she was overall. Also, how have I insulted her, All I said was that at her absolute best she would not beat the likes of Graf, Navratilova, Evert and other players in the upper echelon playing their absolute best. You have an opinion, fine with me, but I have one to, and just because we disagree doesn't mean I am insulting Venus Williams, because if that were the case then a Graf fan could say anyone who doesn't rate her GOAT is insulting her, or I could say anyone who doesn't think Martina is GOAT is insulting her. Its a difference of opinion, and to quote your last line, you will just have to deal with that.

 

[Joe Pike]

I did not say Henin and Clijsters were in their primes, I just said they were already very dangerous and legit outside contenders. You didnt even mention the fact both reached a slam final that year, and went to 3 sets each in their first ever slam final. ...

A sign how weak 2001 was.

 

[Joe Pike]

...
As I've said Venus peaked between 2000 and 2001. Her 2001 summer was the most dominating span (although short) I have seen of any woman tennis player. ...

In 2000/01 Venus lost to Coetzer (36 46), Dokic (16 26), over-the-hill Sanchez, Davenport, Hingis, Maleeva, Serena, Henin (16 46), Schett, Shaughnessy. Not a very impressive peak.

Summer of 2001 the most dominating span you have seen of any womean tennis player? You mean the summer when she lost to Megan Shaughnessy?
When she needed 3 sets against a teenage Henin in the Wimbledon final?

Better than Graf in the first quarter of 1994 when she won 54 sets in a row (= 27 matches)? Better than Graf's 1988 summer when she lost not a single match, won Wimbledon by destroying Navratilova, completed the Grand Slam in Flushing Meadows and the Golden Grand Slam in Seoul?


You are a clown ...

 

[Joe Pike]

...
And let me try to explain to you and boredone. Venus Williams will most definitely be in The International Tennis Hall of Fame regardless of ..

So is Pam Shriver.

 

[DRII]

In 2000/01 Venus lost to Coetzer (36 46), Dokic (16 26), over-the-hill Sanchez, Davenport, Hingis, Maleeva, Serena, Henin (16 46), Schett, Shaughnessy. Not a very impressive peak.

Summer of 2001 the most dominating span you have seen of any womean tennis player? You mean the summer when she lost to Megan Shaughnessy?
When she needed 3 sets against a teenage Henin in the Wimbledon final?

Better than Graf in the first quarter of 1994 when she won 54 sets in a row (= 27 matches)? Better than Graf's 1988 summer when she lost not a single match, won Wimbledon by destroying Navratilova, completed the Grand Slam in Flushing Meadows and the Golden Grand Slam in Seoul?


You are a clown ...

Hey Pike...

try and comprehend!

I'm not talking about how many matches a player has won in a row, I'm talking about the dominating fashion in which a player wins. Summer of 2001 Venus Williams was dominating, blowing opponents off the court left and right Capriati, Davenport, Serena, Clijsters, Seles, Pierce, Hingis, etc, etc. Dominating wins - straight sets.

And I don't know what website you are getting your stats from, atleast I hope its a site because if you really decided to put a Venus loss to Shaunessy in your mental rolodex you've seriously got a problem,... but numbers don't tell the whole story!

I am talking about the tenor and texture of wins.

BTW that 3 set win at Wimby for Venus against Henin. Henin lost the last set 6-0.