While achievement wise Serena not greatest ever tennis wise maybe she is?

[Joe Pike]

Do you ever read what you write? You've just claimed that Evert is not qualified to comment on Serena's game because she's been twice divorced. How ridiculous is that?

Serena is not Roger Federer, not even close. Steffi was the female Federer.

Swing volleys are easier to hit, particularly off the backhand side. That does not make them better than conventional volleys. Those players with the ability and talent will continue to use conventional volleys. See Federer.

Commentators never said Steffi's game was "homemade." Unless you can provide us with evidence, I am going to conclude that this is just another of the many things you have made up in this thread.

As to that topspin backhand, how's this for "homemade": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPU8MyBQhk8

Simply beautiful!
Was there one shot this woman couldn't hit?

 

[Lionheart392]

If you call your incoherent or incredibly arbitrary ramblings 'schooling'; I'm glad I don't attend your school. Are you even tenured yet?

Here is my point, as I have tried to explain endlessly. When choosing which player's best is the best, going back in time and pouring over stats and records, or even score lines is nearly pointless.

Any player's best is actually a hypothetical. We have never seen any players' best. So what I am doing is taking individual aspects of each player’s game when playing well, that I have seen in matches, and comparing them to others. I also should mention I am assuming playing on a medium to fast hard-court surface (probably the most neutral of surfaces), not clay or grass.

I will state the aspects of the game that I am focusing on in their order of importance (again this is all my opinion, if you disagree so be it)

Movement/Defense:

Venus Williams in her prime is the fastest woman I have ever seen on a tennis court. Her movement was simply amazing at her peak and is the reason why so few players would hit many winners against her. What is also important here is that she could turn defense into offense so often. She would come up with devastating shots off of awkward positions and places on the court.

Steffi Graf was also a very good mover and perhaps had better foot work than Venus at her prime, but she was no where near as explosive.

Same can be said for Henin - awesome foot work just not as explosive

Serena in her prime did not move quite as fast or as well and had less reach.

I feel movement/defense is probably the most import aspect in the game and allows players that have it to do things others can not.
.............................................................................................

Serve:

Venus Williams has the most consistently powerful 1st serve in women’s' tennis history. I know other women have hit it as hard or slightly harder once or twice, but Venus can hit serves above 125 mph several times in one game not just in one entire match. Her first is also one of the heaviest and has alot of work on it.

An inform Serena also has a big first serve, but not as big. She may hit more aces on average than Venus, but Venus has more service winners overall. Serena also places her serve a little better and has a more consistent second serve. However, if I am assuming these players are playing at their best then they will not be missing many first serves.

Graf had a good serve with very good placement but wasn't nearly as big. Same can be said for Navratilova.

Lindsay Davenport also had an effective serve, but again was not nearly as explosive.

Alicia Molik was also an excellent server and deserves to be mentioned in this category.
.....................................................................................................

Service Return:

Venus ranks among the best service returners in my mind. She is amongst the most aggressive at her best and gets her racket on more good serves than any other player. Infact with her great improvisation skills, she can be out of position and still get a great return in play.

Lindsay Davenport has a devastating return when she is on. She has probably hit more return winners than anyone. She takes it early and makes it penetrate beautifully. However she doesn't get her racket on as many returns as Venus.

Monica Seles is very similar to Davenport. One of the most aggressive returners in history with amazing angles coming off of her racquet. She probably hit the return earlier than anyone. But with 2 hands on both sides her reach was limited and would get aced way more than Venus.

Serena has a very good return when playing her best; penetrating and forceful. However, she has been handcuffed in the past with her grips on return. She is one of the few top players I have seen hit a two handed forehand on returns because she was too slow to change grips when necessary. She also does not have the reach of Venus on the return.

Graf's return is technically very good and consistent. However she can be exposed on her backhand return, often times slicing it in and not being as aggressive, ala Federer. This can be a weakness and allow the server, especially a big server, to get an early advantage in the point.
...................................................................................................

Power of the Ground:

Venus Williams, at her best, is the most explosive women’s' player off the ground that I have ever seen. She has more pace than any other player off both sides, in particular off the backhand. I have heard Lindsay Davenport say this several times since she started commentating for Tennis Channel.

Lindsay Davenport hits the cleanest and heaviest ball in women’s tennis. She doesn't have the same pace as Venus but her balls in general have better direction.

Serena is somewhere in the middle between Venus and Lindsay. Heavier balls than Venus but not as much pace; and more pace than Lindsay but not as heavy.

Graf has probably the world class forehand. She hits it cleanly with very good pace and penetration. But her backhand can be a real weakness. She hardly ever came over her backhand and would continually slice. This can present an opening to other excellent players to take advantage.

Monica Seles was also very good off the ground with extreme angles and great pace. She took the ball very early and had very good accuracy and penetration. However Monica would sometimes get handcuffed on what was her forehand side and would not always hit it as cleanly.
..................................................................................................

Mental Toughness:

Its here where Venus lags slightly behind the best of the best. She doesn't have the same drive of a Graf, Navratilova, Seles, or Serena. However, she does have great fortitude and loves to compete.
...................................................................................................

Craftiness/Touch:

Venus lags way behind in this category. In my opinion touch and craftiness can quickly be overcome by power and explosiveness. Touch really only comes into play when an opponent is hanging in with her counterpart and has something extra craftiness in the bag to pull out thus unsettling the person across the net.

Graf had great craftiness, whether it was the amazing approach shots or drop volleys etc. Henin is also very good in this respect and maybe Hingis in her absolute prime.
....................................................................................................

All that is to say: Venus Williams at her best is the best. Her sheer level of outrageous offensive combined with amazing defense is just too much for any other player playing at their best to handle. Period, point blank. That is my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but you or boredone are not changing my mind.

Saying Serena and Venus's serves are better than Graf and Navratilova's is unfair because of the differences in racquets now. Graf could serve up to around 110mph in her day but using today's racquets she could probably get into the 120s too.

 

[Joe Pike]

Saying Serena and Venus's serves are better than Graf and Navratilova's is unfair because of the differences in racquets now. Graf could serve up to around 110mph in her day but using today's racquets she could probably get into the 120s too.

Brenda Schultz-McCarthy (22) in 1993: 115 mph (then world record)
Brenda Schultz-McCarthy (35) in 2006: 130 mph (current world record)

 

[lambielspins]

I will state the aspects of the game that I am focusing on in their order of importance (again this is all my opinion, if you disagree so be it)

Movement/Defense:

Venus Williams in her prime is the fastest woman I have ever seen on a tennis court. Her movement was simply amazing at her peak and is the reason why so few players would hit many winners against her. What is also important here is that she could turn defense into offense so often. She would come up with devastating shots off of awkward positions and places on the court..................................................................................
..........................................................................................................long pile of more over the top hyperbolic Venus ass kissing........................
.......................................................................................................
All that is to say: Venus Williams at her best is the best. Her sheer level of outrageous offensive combined with amazing defense is just too much for any other player playing at their best to handle. Period, point blank. That is my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but you or boredone are not changing my mind.

Of course in that whole diatrebe no mention at all of Venus's unforced errors, her extreme groundstroke inconsistency compared to virtually every other player with even 3 or more slams. No mention while she has perhaps the most powerful first serve ever, of her weak second serve which is easily attackable, and is one of the weaker second serves in the top 10 even today amongst a horrible serving group of women. No mention of her technically flawed forehand which is easily broken down and begins to fall short when pressured significantly.

Also some of you other comments were far off base with reality. While Venus has alot of groundstroke power she still has less than say Serena or Davenport. Serena at her best consistently overpowers Venus from all parts of the court. Davenport wouldnt even be able to hang in and win nearly half her matches with Venus with her pitiful court coverage if didnt wasnt able to match and even surpass Venus's pace, which she does most times to people who have watched their matches. Pierce has atleast matched if not surpassed her power off the ground in their matches, even if her vastly inferior court coverage and weaker all around game (plus the superior Venus serve) usually spelled defeat. Venus craftiness level compared to Hingis or Henin, LOL! Venus isnt nearly as smart a player as even other power players like Graf, Seles, and Serena, who are all much craftier and smarter on the court than her. Venus's return of serve is excellent but to think it is anywhere near the same league as Serena, Seles, or Davenport is funny. The only area even Venus's first serve equals Serena is sheer pace, yet Serena even equals here there now. Serena has vastly superior placement, consistency, accuracy, variety, disguise, control, you name it. This is my last reply to you but thanks for all the laughs you have given many of us this thread.

 

[lambielspins]

Brenda Schultz-McCarthy (22) in 1993: 115 mph (then world record)
Brenda Schultz-McCarthy (35) in 2006: 130 mph (current world record)

Capriati isnt even a particularly strong server and she was serving 115 range often on the 1st set at the end of her career. Graf today would easily be able to serve over 120, no doubt about it. Her overall 1st serve would be superior to Venus's which is based mostly just on pace, and her 2nd serve is another league from Venus's sitting duck of a 2nd serve.

 

[DRII]

Of course in that whole diatrebe no mention at all of Venus's unforced errors, her extreme groundstroke inconsistency compared to virtually every other player with even 3 or more slams. No mention while she has perhaps the most powerful first serve ever, of her weak second serve which is easily attackable, and is one of the weaker second serves in the top 10 even today amongst a horrible serving group of women. No mention of her technically flawed forehand which is easily broken down and begins to fall short when pressured significantly.

Also some of you other comments were far off base with reality. While Venus has alot of groundstroke power she still has less than say Serena or Davenport. Serena at her best consistently overpowers Venus from all parts of the court. Davenport wouldnt even be able to hang in and win nearly half her matches with Venus with her pitiful court coverage if didnt wasnt able to match and even surpass Venus's pace, which she does most times to people who have watched their matches. Pierce has atleast matched if not surpassed her power off the ground in their matches, even if her vastly inferior court coverage and weaker all around game (plus the superior Venus serve) usually spelled defeat. Venus craftiness level compared to Hingis or Henin, LOL! Venus isnt nearly as smart a player as even other power players like Graf, Seles, and Serena, who are all much craftier and smarter on the court than her. Venus's return of serve is excellent but to think it is anywhere near the same league as Serena, Seles, or Davenport is funny. The only area even Venus's first serve equals Serena is sheer pace, yet Serena even equals here there now. Serena has vastly superior placement, consistency, accuracy, variety, disguise, control, you name it. This is my last reply to you but thanks for all the laughs you have given many of us this thread.

You obviously don't pay much attention. I answered most of your objections in my previous posts, ofcourse you may still disagree but don't pretend I glarringly overlooked those aspects.

Plus, I will trust Lindsay Davenport's opinion on which woman has the most pace off the ground and not yours!

Thanks

 

[DRII]

Brenda Schultz-McCarthy (22) in 1993: 115 mph (then world record)
Brenda Schultz-McCarthy (35) in 2006: 130 mph (current world record)

Yeah but how often would Brenda, when playing well, hit serves at, or close to, that pace? Once or twice a match ala Serena. Or once or twice a game, ala Venus.

 

[lambielspins]

You obviously don't pay much attention. I answered most of your objections in my previous posts, ofcourse you may still disagree but don't pretend I glarringly overlooked those aspects.

Plus, I will trust Lindsay Davenport's opinion on which woman has the most pace off the ground and not yours!

Thanks

Lindsay is humble so of course wouldnt talk herself up in excess, and she has said Serena is the hardest hitter she ever faced. Thanks, now go back to your Venus shrine.

 

[lambielspins]

Yeah but how often would Brenda, when playing well, hit serves at, or close to, that pace? Once or twice a match ala Serena. Or once or twice a game, ala Venus.

You completely miss the point of what this poster was saying. Brenda in her mid 30s with todays equipment, todays training, perhaps even todays radar guns, was able to serve 15 mph faster than she ever had in her own prime in her mid 20s. In her comeback she played on the challenger circuit in obscurity mostly so who has any idea how regularly she was serving that hard. In her prime she regularly served what her top service speed was then.

As for your comments about Venus always reaching her top serve speed, and Serena only once or twice a match, your delusions cease no boundaries. Comparing Venus's serve to Serena overall Serena blows her away.

First serve pace- even
First serve placement- Serena
First serve percentage- Serena
disguise- Serena
variety- Serena
spin- Serena
consistency- Serena
EVERYTHING about their second serve- Serena by a HUGE margin

Graf in her prime clearly overall had a better serve than Venus too, especialy considering their power on the first serve (Venus's only edge over Graf as well in any aspect of the serve) would probably be almost equal if they played at the same time. Schultz in her prime today no doubt would have a superior overall serve too, even if the rest of her game is rubbish compared to the top players.


The fact that you are wrong on basically everything aside you still didnt answer an earlier question. How on earth could Venus's best tennis be considered the best even in the crazy scenario all you were saying was true when she isnt even an all surface player. How would she do if she were at her best on CLAY playing Evert, Henin, Graf, or Seles in their primes and at their best on clay. Would she even get more than 4 games vs any of them? What about if she were playing her best on rebound ace vs say Seles, Serena, or even Hingis in their primes and playing their best on that surface. Venus even at her best could probably lose to hundreds of women in history on clay (and atleast 10 of the current lame womens clay court field) and many on rebound ace too. Even at her best she is only that effective on certain surfaces like grass and a fast enough hard court. That alone already should eliminate her from this conversation altogether. Someone whose best tennis is the best ever would be one of the best on every surface at their best, not just their favorites.

 

[DRII]

You completely miss the point of what this poster was saying. Brenda in her mid 30s with todays equipment, todays training, perhaps even todays radar guns, was able to serve 15 mph faster than she ever had in her own prime in her mid 20s. In her comeback she played on the challenger circuit in obscurity mostly so who has any idea how regularly she was serving that hard. In her prime she regularly served what her top service speed was then.

As for your comments about Venus always reaching her top serve speed, and Serena only once or twice a match, your delusions cease no boundaries. Comparing Venus's serve to Serena overall Serena blows her away.

First serve pace- even
First serve placement- Serena
First serve percentage- Serena
disguise- Serena
variety- Serena
spin- Serena
consistency- Serena
EVERYTHING about their second serve- Serena by a HUGE margin

Graf in her prime clearly overall had a better serve than Venus too, especialy considering their power on the first serve (Venus's only edge over Graf as well in any aspect of the serve) would probably be almost equal if they played at the same time. Schultz in her prime today no doubt would have a superior overall serve too, even if the rest of her game is rubbish compared to the top players.


The fact that you are wrong on basically everything aside you still didnt answer an earlier question. How on earth could Venus's best tennis be considered the best even in the crazy scenario all you were saying was true when she isnt even an all surface player. How would she do if she were at her best on CLAY playing Evert, Henin, Graf, or Seles in their primes and at their best on clay. Would she even get more than 4 games vs any of them? What about if she were playing her best on rebound ace vs say Seles, Serena, or even Hingis in their primes and playing their best on that surface. Venus even at her best could probably lose to hundreds of women in history on clay (and atleast 10 of the current lame womens clay court field) and many on rebound ace too. Even at her best she is only that effective on certain surfaces like grass and a fast enough hard court. That alone already should eliminate her from this conversation altogether. Someone whose best tennis is the best ever would be one of the best on every surface at their best, not just their favorites.

You really do not pay attention! I will concede to you on several of your points. The point is, i am not talking about the best ever as judged over time, as judged by stats or win loss records or versatility on different surfaces, etc. I am talking about a player playing at their best vs another player playing at their best in one match on a nuetral surface: who would win? I have defined my parameters ad infinitum. I have said that i think Graf is the best women's player of all time as of right now based on her record over time, perhaps Navratilova if you include doubles. So i don't know what your problem is. If you disagree, fine thats your opinion.

But Venus' best is the best. And i will admit, this is theoretical in its premise. As I have said, none of us has seen any players true best. But from what I have seen I would defintely pick Venus. That was the original point of this thread. The question was "although achievement wise, Serena is not the best but tennis wise she may be the best." Or something to that affect. I think Venus at her best is the best. I am not trying to change you or anyone else's mind, that just my opinion.

Also, regarding your serve suggestions. Serena rarely serves over 120 mph more than a couple of times a match, even during her prime. Venus, in her prime, serves over 120 mph one or two times a game. I've seen this.

Also Steffi Graf retired in 1999 at No 3 in the world and still winning grand slams, Venus hit her first record breaking serve in 1998 at 127.4 mph. So please do not act like Steffi was not using up to date equipment in the realitive time span that we are speaking of. If Brenda Schultz was able to come back and hit the biggest serve in womens history, although not during competition, after years out of pro-competition why couldn't Steffi do the same? Perhaps at her absolute best (1988-90) is she had the same technology it might have increased her speed to the teens 113 - 118mph but i don't know if she would be a power server like Venus. I do not think Graf really focused on power with her serve but on placement and direction.

And also, I know clay is not Venus' best surface, but she has defeated several great clay courters on clay; Henin and Seles to name a few. So declaring there are hundreds of women that would easily defeat Venus at her best on clay is flirting with folly to say the least.

 

[DRII]

Lindsay is humble so of course wouldnt talk herself up in excess, and she has said Serena is the hardest hitter she ever faced. Thanks, now go back to your Venus shrine.

Wrong...

I have distinctly heard her specifically say Venus has more pace than Serena!

 

[flying24]

And also, I know clay is not Venus' best surface, but she has defeated several great clay courters on clay; Henin and Seles to name a few. So declaring there are hundreds of women that would easily defeat Venus at her best on clay is flirting with folly to say the least.

LOL Venus has never beaten Henin or Seles anywhere near their primes on clay. Her win over Seles was in 2002, over 6 years after Monica's final slam title, and about a year from Monica's last ever match on tour. Peak Venus played a pre-prime Henin twice on clay back when Henin was 40% the player she would be. She was humiliated 6-1, 6-4 in one of them, and was down 6-2, 4-0 in the other before Henin suffered a massive choke, something she did in her pre champion days often. If Venus ever advanced far enough to play prime Henin in a clay court tournament she would be too scared to even step on court and default with a fake injury.

Seles in 2002 lost to Stephanie Foretz on clay, and Henin to Aniko Kapras (see what I mean how far from their prime levels they were). So by your reasoning for dismissing lambiels claim, there must not be atleast 100 women in history who could beat those women at their best on clay too.

 

[DRII]

LOL Venus has never beaten Henin or Seles anywhere near their primes on clay. Her win over Seles was in 2002, over 6 years after Monica's final slam title, and about a year from Monica's last ever match on tour. Peak Venus played a pre-prime Henin twice on clay back when Henin was 40% the player she would be. She was humiliated 6-1, 6-4 in one of them, and was down 6-2, 4-0 in the other before Henin suffered a massive choke, something she did in her pre champion days often. If Venus ever advanced far enough to play prime Henin in a clay court tournament she would be too scared to even step on court and default with a fake injury.

Seles in 2002 lost to Stephanie Foretz on clay, and Henin to Aniko Kapras (see what I mean how far from their prime levels they were). So by your reasoning for dismissing lambiels claim, there must not be atleast 100 women in history who could beat those women at their best on clay too.

If you agree that there are hundreds of women can beat Venus at her best on clay, then you are completely misguided.

And i completely disagree with your idea of peak Venus and pre-prime Henin. One of Henin's losses to Venus on clay (in straight sets I might add) was in 2003, the same year Henin won the French Open. Venus was not near her peak in 2003.

And Seles got to the French Open semi in 2002 where she lost ot Venus. So Seles was playing pretty well to get to the semis of a major, although it certainly was not her peak or Venus' peak either.

So How about you try not be so dissmissive.

 

[flying24]

And i completely disagree with your idea of peak Venus and pre-prime Henin. One of Henin's losses to Venus on clay (in straight sets I might add) was in 2003, the same year Henin won the French Open. Venus was not near her peak in 2003.

This is completely false. The last match Henin and Venus played on clay was in April 2002. Also in those 2 matches in 2001 the one Venus won she won 7-6 in the final set (after being down 6-2, 4-0 and Henin choking) and lost the other 6-1, 6-4. There was certainly no straight sets win for Venus over even baby pre-prime Henin on clay. Please get simple facts straight atleast.

 

[Bjorkman & Johnny Mac]

Talent wise? no way.. THey have been a handful just as talented as Serena or even more talented. Graf, Martina, Seles in his prime, just to name a few

 

[cuddles26]

DR11 in case you didnt notice this thread is about SERENA, not your hero Venus. Venus is a great player but she isnt even the 2nd greatest player of her own generation anymore. Henin is, and now with her return, Venus being washed up and nearly out of chances already, it is pretty much certain Venus will only be further behind Henin in the future and even more the distant 3rd women of this generation alone. Serena could even usurp Venus as the greatest grass courter of this generation since Venus has already won her final slam probably, even at Wimbledon, whereas Serena could still win more there, is only 2 behind now, and leads Venus in head to head at Wimbledon.

So please stop derailing this thread about Serena's vastly superior sister by pimping your fantasy Venus is the best ever in anyway, be it peak level of play, best overall power game, best on grass, best few months performances, or whatever other nonsense you and only you believe. Start your own Venus ass kissing thread and talk to yourself in it, but leave this thread about the great Serena alone by continously bringing up her less great sister, who worship as you want will never enter any even limited greatest anything ever discussions.

 

[DRII]

This is completely false. The last match Henin and Venus played on clay was in April 2002. Also in those 2 matches in 2001 the one Venus won she won 7-6 in the final set (after being down 6-2, 4-0 and Henin choking) and lost the other 6-1, 6-4. There was certainly no straight sets win for Venus over even baby pre-prime Henin on clay. Please get simple facts straight atleast.

Fine...

you are correct on that one. Sorry i thought Venus beat her in 03 in straight sets in the same tournament. But by 02 Henin ended the year in the top 5 and had reached a FO semi. So you are still being a little too dismissive!

 

[DRII]

DR11 in case you didnt notice this thread is about SERENA, not your hero Venus. Venus is a great player but she isnt even the 2nd greatest player of her own generation anymore. Henin is, and now with her return, Venus being washed up and nearly out of chances already, it is pretty much certain Venus will only be further behind Henin in the future and even more the distant 3rd women of this generation alone. Serena could even usurp Venus as the greatest grass courter of this generation since Venus has already won her final slam probably, even at Wimbledon, whereas Serena could still win more there, is only 2 behind now, and leads Venus in head to head at Wimbledon.

So please stop derailing this thread about Serena's vastly superior sister by pimping your fantasy Venus is the best ever in anyway, be it peak level of play, best overall power game, best on grass, best few months performances, or whatever other nonsense you and only you believe. Start your own Venus ass kissing thread and talk to yourself in it, but leave this thread about the great Serena alone by keeping bringing up her less great sister, who worship as you want will never enter any even limited greatest something discussions.

Its no wonder with a screen name like cuddles, which sister you perfer. I don't recall you being involved in the discussion, so you can leave your lame hypotheticals at the door. Nor did you start this thread. Often times, in case you haven't realized, a thread can start one way and evolve another way.

No one is trying to stop individuals from stating their opinion, i suggest you try the same, without shuving a ball down someone's throat!

Also many here have said Graf is the best or Navratilova or Henin, not your obsession: Serena.

 

[flying24]

Fine...

you are correct on that one. Sorry i thought Venus beat her in 03 in straight sets in the same tournament. But by 02 Henin ended the year in the top 5 and had reached a FO semi. So you are still being a little too dismissive!

Henin's slam results in 2003 were a quarterfinal thumping to Clijsters in Australia getting only 5 games, a 1st round loss at the French to this Kapros girl (an event she would dominate the rest of her career), finally a semifinal at Wimbledon on her worst surface thanks to a joke grass draw, and a 4th round loss at the U.S Open to Hantuchova. I dont know what her exact ranking was, I do know she flucuated from 5-12 during the whole of 2001 and 2002, but she wasnt a top 5 caliber player at the time regardless, bottom top 10 caliber sure. Nonethless given that in 2002 she was still completely owned by Davenport, Clijsters, a way past her prime Seles, all players she would begin to own for good in 2003, I would say she was a huge shadow of her prime level.

So Henin atleast IMO nowhere near the player she would from 2003-onwards beat Venus at her career peak 6-1, 6-4 once on clay and was on the verge of winning the 2nd match 6-2, 6-0 before a meltdown. So just imagine prime Henin vs even peak Venus on clay. It is a scary thought.

 

[DRII]

Henin's slam results in 2003 were a quarterfinal thumping to Clijsters in Australia getting only 5 games, a 1st round loss at the French to this Kapros girl (an event she would dominate the rest of her career), finally a semifinal at Wimbledon on her worst surface thanks to a joke grass draw, and a 4th round loss at the U.S Open to Hantuchova. I dont know what her exact ranking was, I do know she flucuated from 5-12 during the whole of 2001 and 2002, but she wasnt a top 5 caliber player at the time regardless, bottom top 10 caliber sure. Nonethless given that in 2002 she was still completely owned by Davenport, Clijsters, a way past her prime Seles, all players she would begin to own for good in 2003, I would say she was a huge shadow of her prime level.

So Henin atleast IMO nowhere near the player she would from 2003-onwards beat Venus at her career peak 6-1, 6-4 once on clay and was on the verge of winning the 2nd match 6-2, 6-0 before a meltdown. So just imagine prime Henin vs even peak Venus on clay. It is a scary thought.

I understand your point.

Who had the best backhand on clay? Henin or Kuerten? Both were absolutely beautiful one handers!

 

[TMF]

No one is trying to stop individuals from stating their opinion, i suggest you try the same, without shuving a ball down someone's throat!

Cuddle26 have learned a great deal from Serena at the USO, and she will "shove" the balls down your throat when she’s pissed?

 

[cuddles26]

Its no wonder with a screen name like cuddles, which sister you perfer. I don't recall you being involved in the discussion, so you can leave your lame hypotheticals at the door. Nor did you start this thread. Often times, in case you haven't realized, a thread can start one way and evolve another way.

No one is trying to stop individuals from stating their opinion, i suggest you try the same, without shuving a ball down someone's throat!

Also many here have said Graf is the best or Navratilova or Henin, not your obsession: Serena.

Henin and Venus arent the best at anything other than being owned by Serena, well in Henin's case she is queen of clay of this generation and was queen of Serena and all else in 2007 but that is it. The only ones who would blindly say Henin or Venus are the greatest player of this generation at this point (Henin still could catch up or surpass Serena someday I suppose although I doubt it) are blind Serena haters, which there are many of on TW. That isnt a Serena obsession, it is backed up by all facts. All the numbers in comparision to Henin or Venus, especialy Venus, are in Serena's favor. Henin has a few in her favor, but not enough, although as I said Henin has already surpassed Venus as well and pushed Venus down to only 3rd best of this generation. You probably being another of the many Serena haters but in your case only since you are bitter about how she has made your hero Venus her lapdog for years now. Being the Venus fanatic you are, you must be blind with rage at Serena for what she has done to Venus. In fact Serena has basically single handedly sort of ruined Venus's career. Whereas Venus right now would have maybe 8 Wimbledon titles and have a shot at Navratilova's record without Serena, she instead has 5 and isnt even with much shot of the top 3 or 4 all time on by her favorite surface. Whereas Venus could have had not only the career slam but possibly even a non calender slam in 2002 and 2003 combined she instead was forced to take so many mostly forgotten runner up plates, and has only half the slam titles she might have had without Serena. That alone speaks to who is the greater of the two, even if you are talking about even just peak level or whatever spin you are trying to use to favor Venus. Serena owns Venus period, she single handedly wrecked her potential legacy, and forced her still fairly great career into the shadows relatively speaking. When Venus has played her best, Serena has been there to stop her over and over again.

I have read your arguments and all I can say is you are flat out delusional. Venus wasnt at her peak anymore in 2002 and 2003!?!? Why is that, since she was losing all those slam finals to Serena. So if Serena isnt around and stopping Venus from all those titles, Venus is dominating and winning all these slams, yet she is past her peak then according to you, ROTFL!!! Nobody at the time thought Venus wasnt at her peak. They said what everyone except you seems to realize, Serena simply kicked her ass and kept her from all those additional slams she would have won those couple years. Like flying has mentioned how the heck was she not at her peak still when she was making all those slam finals. Yeah Venus wasnt at her best when she was losing to Serena despite that she has lost to her in SIX SLAM FINALS now. If you arent playing that well then you arent reaching finals. This may come as news to you but when you are reaching slam finals or even slam semis you are playing pretty darn well, otherwise you wouldnt have reached that round. Serena has only lost 2 slam finals her whole career. The end of Venus's "peak" was called Serena Williams. What other basis do you have for arguing she was no longer at her peak other than losing to Serena.

Fact is Venus's career is all about Serena, like it or not. When her fans say her peak was is all about when Serena was there to stop her. That she didnt have a 2002-2003 that even surpassed her career years of 2000 and 2001 is all about Serena. Her embarassing stat of being a slam winner who hasnt won 2 of the 4 slams is all because of Serena. With her slam title days basically over already her having only the same # of slam titles as Henin when Henin retired at only 25 and hasnt even begun her return yet is all because of Serena. When she wins is almost always about when Serena isnt around.

 

[DRII]

Henin and Venus arent the best at anything other than being owned by Serena, well in Henin's case she is queen of clay of this generation and was queen of Serena and all else in 2007 but that is it. The only ones who would blindly say Henin or Venus are the greatest player of this generation at this point (Henin still could catch up or surpass Serena someday I suppose although I doubt it) are blind Serena haters, which there are many of on TW. That isnt a Serena obsession, it is backed up by all facts. All the numbers in comparision to Henin or Venus, especialy Venus, are in Serena's favor. Henin has a few in her favor, but not enough, although as I said Henin has already surpassed Venus as well and pushed Venus down to only 3rd best of this generation. You probably being another of the many Serena haters but in your case only since you are bitter about how she has made your hero Venus her lapdog for years now. Being the Venus fanatic you are, you must be blind with rage at Serena for what she has done to Venus. In fact Serena has basically single handedly sort of ruined Venus's career. Whereas Venus right now would have maybe 8 Wimbledon titles and have a shot at Navratilova's record without Serena, she instead has 5 and isnt even with much shot of the top 3 or 4 all time on by her favorite surface. Whereas Venus could have had not only the career slam but possibly even a non calender slam in 2002 and 2003 combined she instead was forced to take so many mostly forgotten runner up plates, and has only half the slam titles she might have had without Serena. That alone speaks to who is the greater of the two, even if you are talking about even just peak level or whatever spin you are trying to use to favor Venus. Serena owns Venus period, she single handedly wrecked her potential legacy, and forced her still fairly great career into the shadows relatively speaking. When Venus has played her best, Serena has been there to stop her over and over again.

I have read your arguments and all I can say is you are flat out delusional. Venus wasnt at her peak anymore in 2002 and 2003!?!? Why is that, since she was losing all those slam finals to Serena. So if Serena isnt around and stopping Venus from all those titles, Venus is dominating and winning all these slams, yet she is past her peak then according to you, ROTFL!!! Nobody at the time thought Venus wasnt at her peak. They said what everyone except you seems to realize, Serena simply kicked her ass and kept her from all those additional slams she would have won those couple years. Like flying has mentioned how the heck was she not at her peak still when she was making all those slam finals. Yeah Venus wasnt at her best when she was losing to Serena despite that she has lost to her in SIX SLAM FINALS now. If you arent playing that well then you arent reaching finals. This may come as news to you but when you are reaching slam finals or even slam semis you are playing pretty darn well, otherwise you wouldnt have reached that round. Serena has only lost 2 slam finals her whole career. The end of Venus's "peak" was called Serena Williams. What other basis do you have for arguing she was no longer at her peak other than losing to Serena.

Fact is Venus's career is all about Serena, like it or not. When her fans say her peak was is all about when Serena was there to stop her. That she didnt have a 2002-2003 that even surpassed her career years of 2000 and 2001 is all about Serena. Her embarassing stat of being a slam winner who hasnt won 2 of the 4 slams is all because of Serena. With her slam title days basically over already her having only the same # of slam titles as Henin when Henin retired at only 25 and hasnt even begun her return yet is all because of Serena. When she wins is almost always about when Serena isnt around.

Judging by this post you have even less mental capcity and tempermate than Serena does. FYI, this thread was not about greatest ever, please try and comprehend that.

BTW, I am not a Serena hater. Although i think her behavior at times borders on despicable. Search my posts if you do not believe me.

Also it takes someone with great malice to compare the sisters in the way you have. I've never thought of it that way and would have no inclanation to do so, even though Venus is my favorite female player and yes without Serena her record would have been even greater, much greater.

Matter of fact you are the first of either Williams sisters' fan I've witnessed to do so.

I guess you liked it in 2003 when Serena called her own sister a bit** in the Australin Open final for all to see on TV!

Matter of fact; Serena said F... You Bit**

How sad...

 

[Joe Pike]

Yeah but how often would Brenda, when playing well, hit serves at, or close to, that pace? Once or twice a match ala Serena. Or once or twice a game, ala Venus.

So?

I just demonstrated that Schultz-McCarthy improved her serve speed from her heyday (1993) until 2006 (when she was 35) due to better racquet equipment by 15 mph.

Peak Graf served with up to 110 mph in early/mid-90ies.
How would Graf have served in 2005, aged 35?
120-125 mph?
Or better still - how would PEAK Graf have served with today's equipment?
125-130 mph?

 

[DRII]

So?

I just demonstrated that Schultz-McCarthy improved her serve speed from her heyday (1993) until 2006 (when she was 35) due to better racquet equipment by 15 mph.

Peak Graf served with up to 110 mph in early/mid-90ies.
How would Graf have served in 2005, aged 35?
120-125 mph?
Or better still - how would PEAK Graf have served with today's equipment?
125-130 mph?

My point is there is a difference between biggest serve and consistently biggest serve...

 

[Joe Pike]

My point is there is a difference between biggest serve and consistently biggest serve...

Watch the beginning of the 1998 Wimbledon quarter final match between Steffi and Venus. They had an insert on the TV screen which said that Steffi had an average first serve speed of 98 mph and Venus of 100 mph in the first four rounds of the tournament.
2 mph doesn't seem to be a big difference to me ...

 

[cuddles26]

Anyway back to the real topic subject SERENA (please people lets stop feeding the troll and even talking about the irrelevant in this thread Venus), yes Serena at her best plays tennis at as higher or higher level than any other women player in history. Yes it may have lasted only 18 months but that Serena would have atleast even odds vs any women in history at their best, incluidng Navratilova of 83-84, Graf of 88-89, and Graf of 95-96.

 

[dannykl]

I guess you liked it in 2003 when Serena called her own sister a bit** in the Australin Open final for all to see on TV!

Matter of fact; Serena said F... You Bit**

How sad...

Really? I don't know that before. Do you have a link to this or can you explain more of the situation? Thanks.

 

[NamRanger]

Henin will surpass Serena in terms of tennis talent. When she is on she is literally unstoppable. See the USO 2007 where she beat both sisters who were actually playing well for most of the year.

 

[cuddles26]

Henin will surpass Serena in terms of tennis talent. When she is on she is literally unstoppable. See the USO 2007 where she beat both sisters who were actually playing well for most of the year.

Serena and Henin are both virtually unbeatable when they are on. Serena still has accomplished more at this point though. Unless Henin wins 4 or 5 more slams in the future than Serena wins, wins atleast 1 Wimbledon, possibly wins 3 or 4 slams in a row, she will not be ranked over Serena in history, regardless your opinions on their games.

 

[Joe Pike]

Anyway back to the real topic subject SERENA (please people lets stop feeding the troll and even talking about the irrelevant in this thread Venus), yes Serena at her best plays tennis at as higher or higher level than any other women player in history. Yes it may have lasted only 18 months but that Serena would have atleast even odds vs any women in history at their best, incluidng Navratilova of 83-84, Graf of 88-89, and Graf of 95-96.

From March 2002 until July 2003 (17 months) Serena won 93 and lost 7 matches (93 %). She won 13 of 20 tournaments. Lost 28 sets in 100 matches.

From May 1988 until April 1990 (24 months) Graf won 152 and lost 3 matches (98 %). She won 26 of 29 tournaments. Lost 22 sets in 155 matches.

 

[LDVTennis]

From March 2002 until July 2003 (17 months) Serena won 93 and lost 7 matches (93 %). She won 13 of 20 tournaments. Lost 28 sets in 100 matches.

From May 1988 until April 1990 (24 months) Graf won 152 and lost 3 matches (98 %). She won 26 of 29 tournaments. Lost 22 sets in 155 matches.

That's amazing.

For Steffi...

59 more matches; 4 fewer losses
13 more tournaments or double the number Serena had
6 fewer sets lost, despite playing 55 more matches than Serena

Again, just no comparison...

 

[cuddles26]

From March 2002 until July 2003 (17 months) Serena won 93 and lost 7 matches (93 %). She won 13 of 20 tournaments. Lost 28 sets in 100 matches.

From May 1988 until April 1990 (24 months) Graf won 152 and lost 3 matches (98 %). She won 26 of 29 tournaments. Lost 22 sets in 155 matches.

Graf's competition during that time- An aging 30 something Navratilova, aging 30 something Evert, pre pubescent Seles and Sanchez, Sabatini, and Sukova.

Serena's competition during that time- peak Venus, prime Davenport, Henin coming into her prime, Clijsters coming into her prime, Capriati at her peak.

 

[LDVTennis]

Graf's competition during that time- An aging 30 something Navratilova, aging 30 something Evert, pre pubescent Seles and Sanchez, Sabatini, and Sukova.

Serena's competition during that time- peak Venus, prime Davenport, Henin coming into her prime, Clijsters coming into her prime, Capriati at her peak.

We've had this debate already. Look up the thread.

The consensus in that thread was that Graf's competition was better than everybody's. Finishing second was Chris. I think Martina and Serena tied for last.

 

[darrinbaker00]

We've had this debate already. Look up the thread.

The consensus in that thread was that Graf's competition was better than everybody's. Finishing second was Chris. I think Martina and Serena tied for last.

You're even more obnoxious here than you are on TennisForum. I didn't think that was humanly possible.

 

[DRII]

Graf's competition during that time- An aging 30 something Navratilova, aging 30 something Evert, pre pubescent Seles and Sanchez, Sabatini, and Sukova.

Serena's competition during that time- peak Venus, prime Davenport, Henin coming into her prime, Clijsters coming into her prime, Capriati at her peak.

In your dreams!

It was not a peak Venus, Davenport had just got back after a multi-month layoff due to knee surgery, Capriati was starting to have eye problems.

Try again...

 

[cuddles26]

In your dreams!

It was not a peak Venus, Davenport had just got back after a multi-month layoff due to knee surgery, Capriati was starting to have eye problems.

Try again...

LOL Capriati had eye problems at only one event, the 2003 Australian Open. Serena's dominance was firmly entrenched by then anyway, and her dominance over Capriati in 2002-2003 was complete. You have been told this by virtually everyone on this thread already but Venus was absolutely at her peak during the Serena dominance, whether you like it or not. She wouldnt have reached 4 straight slam finals if she wasnt, including the French and Australian Open finals for the ONLY time in her whole career. Davenport played the whole year in 2003, yes she missed most of 2002 but Serena beat her at the U.S Open when she was in great form. Add to that Henin's and Clijsters's prime starting in 2003 also. Yet Serena still was the overall dominant player even in 2003 until her knee injury, even with prime Henin and Clijsters joining Davenport, Capriati, and Venus all near their best too.

And who was the competition of your beloved Venus if you think Serena's competition was weak?
Henin and Clijsters were pretty much nowhere in 2000, and even in 2001 they were nowhere near the players they would be in 2003. Davenport in 2001 was injured alot also, and no different than 2003. Capriati was also no different. The only reason she was ever up at the top with Venus at the top in 2001 since people like better players like Serena, Henin, Clijsters, and even Mauresmo hadnt matured yet, and since Davenport despite being overall better than Capriati even then had some bad luck timing of injuries/off performances. So Venus's competition was alot worse than Serena's, so if you think Serena's is weak what does that say about your beloved Venus's competition when she was the top player.

 

[DRII]

LOL Capriati had eye problems at only one event, the 2003 Australian Open. Serena's dominance was firmly entrenched by then anyway, and her dominance over Capriati in 2002-2003 was complete. You have been told this by virtually everyone on this thread already but Venus was absolutely at her peak during the Serena dominance, whether you like it or not. She wouldnt have reached 4 straight slam finals if she wasnt, including the French and Australian Open finals for the ONLY time in her whole career. Davenport played the whole year in 2003, yes she missed most of 2002 but Serena beat her at the U.S Open when she was in great form. Add to that Henin's and Clijsters's prime starting in 2003 also. Yet Serena still was the overall dominant player even in 2003 until her knee injury, even with prime Henin and Clijsters joining Davenport, Capriati, and Venus all near their best too.

And who was the competition of your beloved Venus if you think Serena's competition was weak?
Henin and Clijsters were pretty much nowhere in 2000, and even in 2001 they were nowhere near the players they would be in 2003. Davenport in 2001 was injured alot also, and no different than 2003. Capriati was also no different. The only reason she was ever up at the top with Venus at the top in 2001 since people like better players like Serena, Henin, Clijsters, and even Mauresmo hadnt matured yet, and since Davenport despite being overall better than Capriati even then had some bad luck timing of injuries/off performances. So Venus's competition was alot worse than Serena's, so if you think Serena's is weak what does that say about your beloved Venus's competition when she was the top player.

First, I did not say Serena's competition was weak, just not nearly as strong as you tried to hype it up to be!

Again; you, and some others on this thread, are naively or ignorantly basing your judgements on stats and numbers and records during certain periods.

I make my judgement based on my qualitative analysis; not quantitative. Thats why I think Venus' best is the best. No other player has matched her sheer athleticism and explosiveness at her peak (late summer 2001).

But to answer your question: Davenport 2000-01 was not nearly as injury prone in 2002-03 (Serena's peak). Capriati was also at her peak during this time, with her many wins over Serena, Davenport, and Hingis attest to. Mary Pierce was also at her most dangerous pre 2003. Hingis was certainly better pre 2002 then afterwards. And overall i feel women's tennis was more exciting 2000-01 than 2002-03.

 

[1970CRBase]

Do you ever read what you write? You've just claimed that Evert is not qualified to comment on Serena's game because she's been twice divorced. How ridiculous is that?

Serena is not Roger Federer, not even close. Steffi was the female Federer.

Swing volleys are easier to hit, particularly off the backhand side. That does not make them better than conventional volleys. Those players with the ability and talent will continue to use conventional volleys. See Federer.

Commentators never said Steffi's game was "homemade." Unless you can provide us with evidence, I am going to conclude that this is just another of the many things you have made up in this thread.

As to that topspin backhand, how's this for "homemade": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPU8MyBQhk8

Steffi's footwork, speed, serve, toughness always reminded me much more of Lendl. If anybody was the womens Federer, it was Hingis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M72tcxUI0K8& fmt=18

0:29 Graf's backhand pass in 2008 with the new racquets. Supposedly she said hitting backhand drives is much easier now with the new technology. Wonder what racquet she was using in that exo.

 

[LDVTennis]

Steffi's footwork, speed, serve, toughness always reminded me much more of Lendl. If anybody was the womens Federer, it was Hingis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M72tcxUI0K8& fmt=18

0:29 Graf's backhand pass in 2008 with the new racquets. Supposedly she said hitting backhand drives is much easier now with the new technology. Wonder what racquet she was using in that exo.

Hingis/Federer... I would agree with you on the variety of shot making.

But, that is not really what defines Federer's game. He really couldn't just win that way. Neither could Hingis as it turns out.

Federer wins matches with the placement on his serve and his forehand from the backhand corner. In that respect, he could only be compared to Steffi.

About Steffi's backhand, that's my opinion too. Given a more advanced racquet like the one she's using in that exo, she had no trouble executing the topspin backhand.

In general, I always thought her technique was excellent, but she had two quirks. She could sometimes overmanipulate the face of the racquet to generate on the topspin backhand the same angles she was used to generating on the forehand. Unfortunately, she didn't often have the same forward momentum on the backhand to make the whole stroke work. From time to time, she also hit the topspin backhand off her preparation for a slice backhand, sometimes without even completely changing her grip. She would just turn her wrist to make the shot possible. When her timing was excellent, she could execute the shot this way. When it was not, the shot went into the net.

 

[DRII]

Really? I don't know that before. Do you have a link to this or can you explain more of the situation? Thanks.

I have it on tape. Serena mouthed it, she did not say it loudly but under her breath. Pam Shriver who was commentating for ESPN at the time noticed it, and called Serena out; a little. Pam said: Uhm Sisterly love there? I don't think so!

This and other incidents (09 US Open) show how far Serena is willing to go to win. Unlike Venus, I don't think Venus feels its worth it, perhaps its integrity or lack of supreme drive. I don't know, but i perfer Venus' approach.