Who are your top 15 men and women all time.

12-14 is much too low an estimate for Seles. Even if you are the most stingy to her as possible Seles won 3 slams in both 91 and 92, and had already won the first slam of 93. Graf was #1 in 93, 94, 95, and 96 with Seles out, and Seles won 3 slams in both 91 and 92 with Graf #2 and Graf was 4 years older then her by this point. Seles had 7 slams before 1993, 8 with the first slam of 1993. Even if she dropped down to 2 slams per year from 93-96, which is a huge 1 slam per year drop off, and is being probably mean to Seles considering Graf was 4 years older, and was clearly on top after the Seles stabbing, and wasnt able to stop Seles from winning 3 each of the 2 years before that, Seles would still win another 8 slams in 93-96 and 7 more from the time she was stabbed. She is already now up to 15. Hingis in 97 was dominant, and Hingis has shown she cant handle top power players, wouldnt Seles at worst have won 2 of the 4 slams that year? She would already be up to 17. She still has another 5 years of tennis probably from start 98-end of 2002. The level was such that even Capriati, who could win no slams during the Seles era took 3 slams in 2001-2002. Why couldnt she atleast win another 3 slams those 5 years and end up with 20. I would say 20 is the absolute worst unless there are unforseen problems with injury or unknown potholes.

As for Graf, the absolute most she could have won is 20 as well I believe. Being as generous as possable would have her and Seles splitting the 16 slams in 93-96, and for the reasons I described with Seles this is being super generous to Graf. Graf had 11 before the stabbing, so giving her the most generous total of 8 more those 4 years she is up to 19. Graf was too injured to win slams her final 3 years mostly of 97-99 but won a French in 99, and came close at Wimbledon. If she somehow manages to win 1 of those 2 with Seles not enduring tragedy, she would end up with 20 as well.

So 20 is the absolute lowest most stingy estimate for Seles. While 20 is the most generous leanient estimate for Graf.

What a load of crap.
Winning 3 consecutive slams at the same venue means zilch.
Only 23 % of 3-time winners (women, post-WW2) were able to win a fourth consecutive slam. So there is only a 23% chance that Seles would have taken away Graf's FO 93 and AO 94 titles without the stabbing.

And we all know that Graf won 5 of 7 matches against #1 Seles.

And we know that Graf had a 80-2 win/loss record in the 12 months after the Seles stabbing. Seles herself never ever was able to produce a winning percentage like that. Actually she was only 58-5 in the 12 months before the stabbing.

BTW, Seles returned to the game in summer of 95. Do you really want to tell us that she didn't win more than her one AO 96 slam title because of the 1993 stabbing??? She she was injured at the FO 96 (and lost to Novotna in the quarters) because of the 1993 stabbing? That she was beaten like drum by Hingis in 1997 because of the 1993 stabbing? That she became fat because of the 1993 stabbing? That her dad died of cancer because of the 1993 stabbing? That she had a shoulder injury in 1998/99 because of the 1993 stabbing?

Please stop you stupid Seles propaganda, will you?

Condi
 
I defintely don't agree with Condoleeza's assessment regarding Seles. Obviously, you like Graf a lot, and no doubt she is a great champion and even with Seles around, very well may have won more Slams than Seles. But, Seles at 4-5 and Graf near 30 Slams seems ridiculous.

I agree with federerfanatic that Seles could have won 20 or more slams, but I think that you may be overstating your position. You mention Hingis and how she can't handle power. But, Hingis had a winning record against Seles and caused problems for Seles. Also, although Graf and Seles probably would have won most of the Slams between them while Seles was out, it doesn't mean that someone else such as Aranxta S-V or Pierce wouldn't have won one.

My only point is that Seles was a really good player and would have won more Slams had she not been stabbed.

Do you really think the Blackmail Scandal of 1990-92 didn't help Seles a lot? Don't forget that Graf made 13 consecutive slam finals in 1987-90, but only 4 slam finals between summer of 1990 and end of 1992 (10 slams).

Don't you think Graf would have won many, many more slams in 1997-2002 if it weren't for her knee injury which led to reconstrutive surgery in spring of 1997? We must remember that Graf had won all the slams she played in 1995 and 1996. A healthy Graf, with no scandals, would have won AT LEAST those 8 more slams. Don't forget, at the height of her form she beat top players in slam finals with 6-0 6-0, 6-0 6-2 and 6-1 6-2 scores, belted Wimbledon queen Navratilova twice in Wimbledon finals.

As a matter of fact, I don't think you ever saw peak Graf play tennis.

Condi
 
You could be right but Hingis did very well vs Seles when Seles was not the same player post-stabbing. ...

But was she "not the same player post-stabbing" BECAUSE OF the stabbing?
Care to prove that?

Graf was not the same player in 1991 as in 1988. Hingis was not the same player in 2000 as in 1997. Serena was not the same player in 2006 as in 2003. Austin was not the same player in 1982 as in 1979. Evert was not the same player in 1980 as in 1977. Sabatini was not the same player in 1994 as in 1991. Sanchez was not the same player in 1999 as in 1996. Pierce was not the same player in 1998 as in 1995.
Who of them was stabbed?

Condi
 
i think hingis had and has seles' number. she beat seles like 2 and 3 or something bad in the bank of the west classic in 97. she did the same 1 and 2 or something at the lipton later on. hingis was honing her game when seles was number 1. seles even says she remembers meeting hingis when hingis was a junior. i have no doubt that melanie molitor would have specifically spent a LOT of time figuring out a game plan that would work against seles because the assumption would be that seles would still be a dominant player by the time hingis became a pro. the slip up at the french when seles beat hingis was largely due to hingis' rebelliousness and total lack of preparation which shocked even melanie molitor. the night before her match with seles, i think she was riding the elevators up and down after failing to figure out something to do with her boyfriend at the time. in her practice beforehand she was just hitting crazy shots for fun and giggling. hingis wasn't serious. its sad because i really like seles much more as a person than hingis.

You really think Molitor was thinking about "game plans" against Seles in 1992, when Hingis was, what, 11 years old ...... ?:D :D

Condi
 
Was the blackmail scandal you refer to, about her father?

Anyway, take out Gunther, blackmail scandal & knee surgery & it would have been a great rivalry. I think Graf would still have ended up with 20+ & Seles 15+. They both would have dominated the women's tour together. The #1 would have changed hands SO many times.


No.
Peak Graf was far better than peak Seles.
Don't forget that Graf won more than 70 % of her matches even against #1 Seles.
In Seles's two best years ever (1991/92) Seles won only one of four matches against Graf. The one being the famous 10-8 in third set FO 92 final.

Graf was 10-5 H2H against Seles. Without the stabbing, the scandals and all injuries Graf would have had a 28-8 advantage or so. Not exactly a real rivalry.

Condi
 

The Grand Slam

Hall of Fame
Ohohohoho, and Condi, you know this how? You are not an expert. You can not see what may have happened had Seles not been stabbed.
 
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ne1410is

Guest
You really think Molitor was thinking about "game plans" against Seles in 1992, when Hingis was, what, 11 years old ...... ?:D :D

Condi

ummmmm, let's think about how melanie named her daughter. what she had her daughter do from a very young age. what was her goal? and how old was hingis when she won wimbledon juniors? yeah i'm sure it was impossible for melanie to consider a professional career for her daughter.
 
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ne1410is

Guest
Hinigis to me is proof that Graf was the better player than Seles. Hinigs owned Seles, but Graf owned Hingis. No sane person would deny the fact that Seles would have gotten more titles had she not been stabbed. She was young when she returned and Graf still won when she was in the very last part of her career. I think Graf's run at the 1999 RG served as proof that Graf was a better player. As a 29 yeard old she beat the top 3 to win a GS title on clay! Her game was better matched against all generations and her last two finals made up for the grand slam titles she won in 1993.

yeah but just because hingis beats seles/graf beats hingis. This doesn't automatically mean graf beats seles. that's why round robins can be thought of as the more ideal type of tournament. certain players match up against certain players better.
 
yeah but just because hingis beats seles/graf beats hingis. This doesn't automatically mean graf beats seles. ....


Graf did beat #1 Seles in 5 of 7 matches.
One of those 2 Seles wins was the FO 92 final, Seles winning only with 10-8 in the third set.
What about that is too complicated for you to understand?
5 of 7?


Condi
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
Condoleeza, seriously, what is your problem? We all agree Graf was great. Why the enormous defensiveness?

Again, my only point is that Seles would have probably won more slams absent the stabbing. You point out that Graf was affected by a blackmale scandal, but Seles can't be affected by a stabbing even after her return?

Graf did have a winning record vs. Seles, fair enough, but Seles could and did beat her, so given that they would have probably met in the finals a fair amout of the time, Seles probably would have beat her on occasion, even if Graf won most of the time.

I thought you were a Graf fanatic, but you obviously don't like Seles. You simply won't give her any credit or acknowledge that she was a great player, because you seem to think that this some how diminishes Grad, which it doesn't.
 
Ohohohoho, and Condi, you know this how? You are not an expert. You can not see what may have happened had Seles not been stabbed.

Those Seles fans are those who have the burden of proof.
And this burden ist a very heavy one considering thes FACTS:

1) Graf leads #1 Seles 5-2 H2H,
2) only 23 % of 3-time-in-a-row slam (same venue) winners managed to win the 4th consecutive one (re: Seles winning FO 93 or AO 94 without stabbing),
3) Graf raised her game considerably in 93/96 (made 85 % of slam/YEC finals compared to only 33 % in summer90/end92),
4) Seles didn't win a lot in 95-02 (2.25 until 9 years after stabbing),
5) many players in the history had great success for a few years, only a few superstars had great success for more than 10 years.

Condi
 
ummmmm, let's think about how melanie named her daughter. what she had her daughter do from a very young age. what was her goal? and how old was hingis when she won wimbledon juniors? yeah i'm sure it was impossible for melanie to consider a professional career for her daughter.

Are you dense or what?
Why should Molitor not consider a pro career for Martina when she was 11 years old?

Condi
 
Condoleeza, seriously, what is your problem? We all agree Graf was great. Why the enormous defensiveness?
....

You think I'm on the defensive?

....
Again, my only point is that Seles would have probably won more slams absent the stabbing. You point out that Graf was affected by a blackmale scandal, but Seles can't be affected by a stabbing even after her return?
....

Seles most probably would have won some of those Pierce, Sanchez slams in 93-95. Maybe even a Graf slam.
But we can think of many, many woulda-coulda scenarios. Yes, a Graf-without-daddy's-scandals. Or a Graf-without-knee-surgery. Why only a Seles-without-stabbing?

Seles played great tennis in the first months of her return (actually the first 18 months). Only Graf had raised her game in the meantime.


....Graf did have a winning record vs. Seles, fair enough, but Seles could and did beat her, so given that they would have probably met in the finals a fair amout of the time, Seles probably would have beat her on occasion, even if Graf won most of the time.
...

I don't dispute that. Never did. That's not the point.

....I thought you were a Graf fanatic, but you obviously don't like Seles. You simply won't give her any credit or acknowledge that she was a great player, because you seem to think that this some how diminishes Grad, which it doesn't.

Actually I like Seles. But I can't stand the anti-Graf agitprop that her fans and/or US tennis fans reiterate again and again. There is a lot pro-Navratilova/Evert/Serena bias in it, too. Some people simply can't accept that a German girl is the GOAT (same with Schumacher, BTW).
Perhaps because of World War 2 ......... ?

Condi
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
Actually I like Seles. But I can't stand the anti-Graf agitprop that her fans and/or US tennis fans reiterate again and again. There is a lot pro-Navratilova/Evert/Serena bias in it, too. Some people simply can't accept that a German girl is the GOAT (same with Schumacher, BTW).
Perhaps because of World War 2 ......... ?

Condi

OK, let's call a truce. I am not at all anti-Graf and I wholly believe she is the GOAT. I do see your point. Many people who are pro-Seles are anti-Graf, but, beleive me, I'm not one of them.
 
Because she was STABBED! Jesus Christ, don't you get what it did to her?!

Exactly, I dont get why some people are too plain dumb to get that. Try being almost murdered on court in the middle of a tennis match on the professional tour, your attacker gone free, and to be the same person or competitor on the tennis court on that same professional tour ever again.
 
Condoleezza get over your hardon for Graf. Bluetrain4 was in fact being ridiculously generous to your beloved Graf by still giving Graf most of the slams had Seles not been stabbed. She/he in fact was being unneccessarily kind to Graf in doing that considering Seles was winning the vast majority of the pre-stabbing slams those couple years instead of Graf, and was over 4 years younger. Graf in fact won less slams-6 of 9 played, while Seles was out then Seles won with Graf in the field with her pre stabbing-6 of 7.

I am a fanatic of a player too but atleast it is a player who didnt win half of his slams after a much younger rival who had been schooling him for over 2 years takes a knife in the back, and no matter how many times the most devoted and insensitive fanatics of the player defend every title that person won, it is just sad denial of the realization that an asterix will hang over your beloved favorites accomplishments and taint their career forever.
 

Phil

Hall of Fame
Exactly, I dont get why some people are too plain dumb to get that. Try being almost murdered on court in the middle of a tennis match on the professional tour, your attacker gone free, and to be the same person or competitor on the tennis court on that same professional tour ever again.

Because no fanatic of a particular player wants to admit to himself that that player will always have an (invisible) asterisk next to her name. It's tough when the object of your adolescent fantasies would not be where whe is in the tennis history books were it not for a stroke of fate. Knife stroke that is...those who idolize don't easily loosen the grip on their idols.
 
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ne1410is

Guest
You really think Molitor was thinking about "game plans" against Seles in 1992, when Hingis was, what, 11 years old ...... ?:D :D

Condi


ummmmm, let's think about how melanie named her daughter. what she had her daughter do from a very young age. what was her goal? and how old was hingis when she won wimbledon juniors? yeah i'm sure it was impossible for melanie to consider a professional career for her daughter.


Are you dense or what?
Why should Molitor not consider a pro career for Martina when she was 11 years old?

Condi

I would suggest that you re-read your own post and my response to it. I am fairly confident in my intellectual abilities. I am not as confident, however, in your ability to read and comprehend. Projecting your own insecurity onto me perhaps? Or is this too dense for you?
 

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
yeah but just because hingis beats seles/graf beats hingis. This doesn't automatically mean graf beats seles. that's why round robins can be thought of as the more ideal type of tournament. certain players match up against certain players better.

I agree with you.
 

Bical

New User
Men

1- Guillermo Vilas
2- Roger Federer
3- Jimmy Connors
4- John McEnroe
5- Bjon Borg
6- Pete Sampras
7- Illie Nastase
8- Rod Laver
9- Andre Agassi
10- Boris Becker
11- Stefan Edberg
12- Ivan Lendl
13- Mats Wilander
14- Pat Cash
15- Marat Safin

Woman

1- Steffi Graff
2- Monica Seles
3- Martina Navratilova
4- Chris Ever
5- Martina Hingis
6- Billy Jean King
7- Evone Gollagoon
8- Gabriela Sabatini
9- Justin Henin
10- Venus Williams
11- Jennifer Capriati
12- Susane Lenglen
13- Margaret Court
14- Lindsay Davenport
15- Pam Shriver
 
..... I am a fanatic of a player too but atleast it is a player who didnt win half of his slams after a much younger rival who had been schooling him for over 2 years takes a knife in the back, ...


Seles schooling Graf for over 2 years before the stabbing?
Hmm, let's have a look:

San Antonio 1991: Graf def. Seles 6-4 6-3
Hamburg 1991: Graf def. Seles 7-5 6-7 6-3
French Open 1992: Seles def. Graf 6-2 3-6 10-8
Wimbledon 1992: Graf def. Seles 6-2 6-1
Ozzy Open 1993. Seles def. Graf 4-6 6-3 6-2

Matches - Graf vs. Seles: 3-2
Sets - Graf vs. Seles: 8-5
Games - Graf vs. Seles: 70-60
Winner in the most important match: Graf (6-2 6-1)

Do you remember how Zvereva "schooled" Graf in the FO 88 final ..... ?
:D :D :D

Condi
 
I would suggest that you re-read your own post and my response to it. I am fairly confident in my intellectual abilities. I am not as confident, however, in your ability to read and comprehend. Projecting your own insecurity onto me perhaps? Or is this too dense for you?

I'm definitely not very confident in your intellectual abilities:

.... hingis was honing her game when seles was number 1. seles even says she remembers meeting hingis when hingis was a junior. i have no doubt that melanie molitor would have specifically spent a LOT of time figuring out a game plan that would work against seles because the assumption would be that seles would still be a dominant player by the time hingis became a pro. ....

Hingis was 12 years old at the time of the stabbing.
And you think that Molitor would have thought about "games plans" against Seles ....... ? :D :D :D

Oh boy .......


Condi
 
Because no fanatic of a particular player wants to admit to himself that that player will always have an (invisible) asterisk next to her name. It's tough when the object of your adolescent fantasies would not be where whe is in the tennis history books were it not for a stroke of fate. Knife stroke that is...those who idolize don't easily loosen the grip on their idols.

You are exactly right. That is a perfect description of the reasons behind the refusal of the Graf idol worshipers to even acknowledge the stabbing, and the Seles dominance pre-stabbing even existed.
 
Seles schooling Graf for over 2 years before the stabbing?
Hmm, let's have a look:

San Antonio 1991: Graf def. Seles 6-4 6-3
Hamburg 1991: Graf def. Seles 7-5 6-7 6-3
French Open 1992: Seles def. Graf 6-2 3-6 10-8
Wimbledon 1992: Graf def. Seles 6-2 6-1
Ozzy Open 1993. Seles def. Graf 4-6 6-3 6-2

Matches - Graf vs. Seles: 3-2
Sets - Graf vs. Seles: 8-5
Games - Graf vs. Seles: 70-60
Winner in the most important match: Graf (6-2 6-1)

Do you remember how Zvereva "schooled" Graf in the FO 88 final ..... ?
:D :D :D

Condi

Nobody except you cares about the significance of a many time slam winner like Graf schooling a 1-time slam finalist like Zvereva in a slam final.

Seles was 3-1 vs Graf in slam finals from the 1990 French Open-1993 Australian, covering the 3 year span before the stabbing. Seles won 8 slams in the 3 year span before the stabbing, Graf only 2. Seles won the 3 year-end Championships before the stabbing, Graf 0.

It does not matter though, you like to live in your deluded reality Seles was never getting the better of Graf before she took a knife in the back, and that it never affected her career upon returning, and that Graf never benefited in her accomplishments and subsequent dominance which had previously evaporated. You have to resort to the scoreline of 1 match, despite Graf losing the other 3 biggest matches between the two, a double bagel vs a 1-time slam finalist by Graf before Seles even arrived, and matches in minor tournaments like San Antonio, while Seles was winning the vast majority of the slam titles and slam meetings between the two, to try to give yourself re-assurance and validate your own delusions. Enjoy coming up with the cheapest stats possible to mask that sickening feeling deep down you know your idols greatness was increased by a knife in the back.
 
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ne1410is

Guest
I'm definitely not very confident in your intellectual abilities:



Hingis was 12 years old at the time of the stabbing.
And you think that Molitor would have thought about "games plans" against Seles ....... ? :D :D :D

Oh boy .......


Condi

Yes I do think so, since Seles was the dominant player at the time, and the intention was for Hingis to become a professional (Melanie named her Martina after Navratilova!), I don't think its unreasonable that Hingis would have seen Seles play on tv a lot and devised a game plan with the help of her mother. It would have taken very little time, since I'm sure Melanie saw a certain weakness in Seles' game. She's pretty good at scouting players. I've heard of many other professionals say how its weird for them to play their idols and how they know their idols' games so well.
 
You are exactly right. That is a perfect description of the reasons behind the refusal of the Graf idol worshipers to even acknowledge the stabbing, and the Seles dominance pre-stabbing even existed.


No one denies that Seles won most slams in the 90ies pre-stabbing.

But if we analyse Seles's two great years, 1991 and 1992, we get this:

1) She lost 3 of 4 matches against #2 Steffi Graf. :D
2) She didn't win the two single most important tournaments played in those years - Wimbledon 1991 and Wimbledon 1992. :D
3) She had a lower winning percentage (93.3) in those TWO years than Steffi Graf in an ELEVEN-year period (1986-97). :D

And those three facts completely sink the Selesian myth that Seles "dominated" anything.


Condi
 
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ne1410is

Guest
I'd also like to point out that you admit that Melanie would likely be considering a pro career for her daughter at a young age. Why is it, then such a gigantic and unbelievable leap to have Melanie come up with a way to play against the then-dominant Seles?
 
Nobody except you cares about the significance of a many time slam winner like Graf schooling a 1-time slam finalist like Zvereva in a slam final.

Seles was 3-1 vs Graf in slam finals from the 1990 French Open-1993 Australian, covering the 3 year span before the stabbing. Seles won 8 slams in the 3 year span before the stabbing, Graf only 2. Seles won the 3 year-end Championships before the stabbing, Graf 0.

It does not matter though, you like to live in your deluded reality Seles was never getting the better of Graf before she took a knife in the back, and that it never affected her career upon returning, and that Graf never benefited in her accomplishments and subsequent dominance which had previously evaporated. You have to resort to the scoreline of 1 match, despite Graf losing the other 3 biggest matches between the two, a double bagel vs a 1-time slam finalist by Graf before Seles even arrived, and matches in minor tournaments like San Antonio, while Seles was winning the vast majority of the slam titles and slam meetings between the two, to try to give yourself re-assurance and validate your own delusions. Enjoy coming up with the cheapest stats possible to mask that sickening feeling deep down you know your idols greatness was increased by a knife in the back.

Graf profited from Seles being absent in 1993-95. But Seles returned with a vengeance in summer of 1995. Actually she had the same winning percentage against non-Graf players until April 1997 as she had in 1990-93.
But Graf had raised her game again and that was too much for Seles.

But while Graf profited for 2.25 years Seles profited from Graf's mishaps longer. Graf was hampered by the ugly blackmail scandal from May 1990 until February 1992 (1.75 years) and by a severe knee injury & reconstructive knee surgery from January 1997 until April 1998 (1.25 years). Graf didn't play AO 92, AO 96, Wim 97, USO 97, AO 98.
And she had to end her career in August 1999 when Seles was 25 years old. Why didn't Seles beat Hingis as Graf did beat the Swiss b.itch regularily?

Condi
 
Bumping this thread up again, as Serena, Roger, Justine, and Venus, all add to their slam tallies. Sadly Jennifer has not returned to do the same. :( :(
 

AM28143

Semi-Pro
New Rule- You can't call Tilden, Laver, or any of those old timers one of the greatest ever unless you actually saw them play. I hear so many different arguements about Laver and how legit were his two grand slams, yet no one, save for the older posters, ever saw him play. Therefore, lets stick with post Borg players. Only that way we can have rational, well thought out threads about the top 10,15 or so greatest player of all-time.
 

helloworld

Hall of Fame
An old Laver used to routinely beat Borg in the early days though. I've seen the actual video of it. Laver just simply outplayed Borg. But he got beat by Borg later on in his career though, prolly because of his old age.
 

CyBorg

Legend
An old Laver used to routinely beat Borg in the early days though. I've seen the actual video of it. Laver just simply outplayed Borg. But he got beat by Borg later on in his career though, prolly because of his old age.

Here's the H2H
http://www.atptennis.com/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?playernum1=B058&playernum2=L058

Where's this routinely thing you are talking about?

The H2H also does not include Borg's win over Laver at the exhibition in Hilton Head in 1977 (this is probably the video that you've seen).

Laver definitely had competitive matches with Borg, but nothing serious past 1975.
 

anointedone

Banned
I know Borg was not in his prime either, but still pretty impressive a 35 year old Laver had a straight sets win over Borg on clay.
 
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