Who did Djokovic do more damage to- Federer or Nadal

M

mattosgrant

Banned
One interesting thing is Djokovic has only ever beaten Nadal 4 times in slams. He has beaten Federer 7 times. So whom did he do more damage to.

Nadal 3 slams lost to Djokvovic:

2011 Wimbledon
2011 U.S Open
2012 Australian Open

IMO he wins all 3 of those otherwise. Wimbledon is a no brainer. U.S Open some would argue for Federer, and Australian Open some for Murray, but I would say he wins both those. So likely 3 slams lost because of Djokovic, and 1 YE#1 in 2011. However that isnt nearly as much as you would think. Nadal was never winning Roland Garros 2015.

Nadal 7 slams lost to Djokovic:

2008 Australian Open
2010 U.S Open
2011 Australian Open
2011 U.S Open
2012 French Open
2014 Wimbledon
2015 Wimbledon

OK lets eliminate the easy ones first. Fed was never beating Nadal at the 2010 U.S Open or 2012 French Opens so those are easy outs. I think it is pretty clear he was winning the 2011 Australian Open or 2015 Wimbledon without Djokovic. So that is atleast 2 slams. It seems likely he would have won 2014 Wimbledon also, even if Dmitrov might have given him a battle based on his semifinal performance. So likely 3 slams. I would guess Tsonga winning the 2008 Australian Open as he was on fire, and Federer was dealing with mono and clearly subpar. The 2011 U.S Open as stated above I would still favor Nadal, even if it wouldnt be like 2010 where Federer would have absolutely no chance, as Nadal was weaker than the 2010 event and Federer in much better form.

Still if I had to guess it would be 3 slams just like Nadal. However 3 seems the max for Nadal, and the minimum for Federer. Federer lost the YE#1 in both 2012 and 2014 to Djokovic. Since 2011 Nadal has mostly been too injured to even come close to that.

So Federer has in fact lost out on more to Djokovic than Nadal most likely which is surprising and a bit amazing.
 
You really are assuming too much. Nobody would have thought Wawrinka was winning his first GS final against Nadal, or his second GS final against Djokovic. Nobody thought Del Potro was winning his first (and only) GS final against Federer.

Nadal could have lost those three finals (had he have to face the other SFist), or could have won 1, or 2, or the three of them. It is just impossible to know. Exactly the same with Federer and his "alternative universes GS finals", or of any other player.
 
picard-facepalm_zps404792fb.jpg
 
Levi_Ackerman said:
Look how Nole has his arm on Rafa's shoulders in the picture in the top right corner. They really were friends, weren't they, before Nole started dominating? Rafa probably (as Nole's father said he did) pulled away from their friendship because of the changing dynamic. Pretty petty of him.
Click to expand...

Yeah the way Nadal treated Novak after he started dominating was pathetic. Sadly a lot of players are like that. It shows true character. Novaks father said it best. Nadal was his best friend before the tide turned in their matchup. Then he was really unpleasant. Whereas with Andy and Novak, the way they have treated each other has never changed, win or lose. Nadal was probably only friends with Nole because he saw him as a threat and wanted to keep him under the thumb. I remember early on in 2011 him saying how close he was to Novak but after he owned him on clay.. Nope. True friend that one :D
 
Nadal clearly.

All but 1 of Djokovic's victories over Federer came when Fed already had 16 Majors. Fed's legacy as the greatest of the Open era was already secured as things stood. If he had won a few more of these matches in his post-prime against prime Novak, it doesn't really change his Open era standing. Maybe it would change his all-time standing with some people, but the complexities of tennis history make that such a difficult subject anyway.

Going into Wimbledon 2011, Nadal had 10 Majors, 6 behind Federer and had won 4 of the 5. He had huge momentum in terms of the Majors. Djokovic's 3 wins in a row not only prevented that run from continuing but prevented Rafa evening out his resumé a bit as those were the 3 non-RG Majors. He has managed to add 1 USO and 3 more RGs since, but those defeats took away his chance to get near to Fed in terms of overall number and with a better distribution.
 
Strobe Lights said:
Nadal clearly.

All but 1 of Djokovic's victories over Federer came when Fed already had 16 Majors. Fed's legacy as the greatest of the Open era was already secured as things stood. If he had won a few more of these matches in his post-prime against prime Novak, it doesn't really change his Open era standing. Maybe it would change his all-time standing with some people, but the complexities of tennis history make that such a difficult subject anyway.

Going into Wimbledon 2011, Nadal had 10 Majors, 6 behind Federer and had won 4 of the 5. He had huge momentum in terms of the Majors. Djokovic's 3 wins in a row not only prevented that run from continuing but prevented Rafa evening out his resumé a bit as those were the 3 non-RG Majors. He has managed to add 1 USO and 3 more RGs since, but those defeats took away his chance to get near to Fed in terms of overall number and with a better distribution.
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I agree with this. That's why the vitriol from Nadal fans is so strong. Losing 7 times in a row at your peak to another player is also a big deal. Nadal couldn't even do that to Fed and we all know the dynamic of their matchup.
 
I guess my main point is it appears if it werent for Djokovic, Nadal would be no closer to Federer than he currently is, maybe even further. I guess Nadal would stand more clearly above someone like Sampras if it werent for Djokovic, so it is more in that sense he lost.
 
Nadal and fed only beat a terribly declined Novak.
Unless there is another parallel universe, fedal didn't play well enough to meet at the U.S. open.
Novak on the other hand, is the only one who reversed his decline.
Thanks to fed, the insults against his real physical illness gave him strength, weapons and love for tennis again.
Novak doesn't need old age excuses since he gets better, even at age 35.
 
IamGroot said:
Yeah the way Nadal treated Novak after he started dominating was pathetic. Sadly a lot of players are like that. It shows true character. Novaks father said it best. Nadal was his best friend before the tide turned in their matchup. Then he was really unpleasant. Whereas with Andy and Novak, the way they have treated each other has never changed, win or lose. Nadal was probably only friends with Nole because he saw him as a threat and wanted to keep him under the thumb. I remember early on in 2011 him saying how close he was to Novak but after he owned him on clay.. Nope. True friend that one :D
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Rafa only viewed Nole as a threat to him, not to fed. He thought nole was never improving on clay because Rafa was in clay marathons with him during the Rafa "decline". Fedal played the nice guys since they didn't see nole turning into a goat.
Now, fed never speaks about "being #1 with Rafa by his side" again.
 
Levi_Ackerman said:
Look how Nole has his arm on Rafa's shoulders in the picture in the top right corner. They really were friends, weren't they, before Nole started dominating? Rafa probably (as Nole's father said he did) pulled away from their friendship because of the changing dynamic. Pretty petty of him.
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The only picture in which Djokovic has his arm around Rafa is the 2012 RG Final, and guess what? Djokovic had won their previous THREE slam meetings prior to that. So Djokovic's dominance had already completely occurred prior to that photo (he would never beat Rafa at a slam again until 2015).
 
Novak didn't play him because Rafa lost to 19 year olds and journeymen.
Fed lost to people who've never reached a slam semi.
 
Djokovic's prime years have been hopeless, losing to Rafa in 4 of their last 5 slam meetings (2012-2015)....and Rafa had won their last 4 slam meetings prior to 2015 Roland Garros, and the most lopsided was at 2013 US Open (6-1 in 4th set).
At the slams their h2h is Rafa 9-4.
Rafa leads 6-1 at Roland Garros.
Rafa leads 2-1 at US Open.
Tied 1-1 at Wimbledon.
Djokovic leads 1-0 at AO (and it took 6 hours!).
 
Last edited:
If the weak era was so good, those old players would have gotten slam wins in 2004-2015. An wrist injured nalbandian choked to hand Roddick the U.S. open.

Alas, on grass, old nieminin embarrassed hewitt
 
tennis_commentator said:
Djokovic's prime years have been hopeless, losing to Rafa in 4 of their last 5 slam meetings (2012-2015)....and Rafa had won their last 4 slam meetings prior to 2015 Roland Garros, and the most lopsided was at 2013 US Open (6-1 in 4th set).
At the slams their h2h is Rafa 10-4.
Rafa leads 6-1 at Roland Garros.
Rafa leads 2-1 at US Open.
Tied 1-1 at Wimbledon.
Djokovic leads 1-0 at AO (and it took 6 hours!).
Click to expand...

Dude, your trolling is not clever of funny. Peak Nadal got schooled 7 times in a row by Novak and you are sore about it. Funny you were banned from menstennisforum for trolling and now you are here.

As for the AO taking 6 hours, you conveniently don't mention Nadal had an extra days rest and Novak had an epic semi with Andy, and still should have won in 4. Also Novak just destroyed Nadal at his best slam. So keep hating. You can't even discuss tennis seriously you just troll. Last time I write to you as you clearly are just baiting with everything you right. Soon you will get banned from here.
 
Definitely Nadal. If not for injuries and Nole coming of age in 2011, Nadal would have broke the slam record 3 years ago or so.
 
tennis_commentator said:
Djokovic's prime years have been hopeless, losing to Rafa in 4 of their last 5 slam meetings (2012-2015)....and Rafa had won their last 4 slam meetings prior to 2015 Roland Garros, and the most lopsided was at 2013 US Open (6-1 in 4th set).
At the slams their h2h is Rafa 10-4.
Rafa leads 6-1 at Roland Garros.
Rafa leads 2-1 at US Open.
Tied 1-1 at Wimbledon.
Djokovic leads 1-0 at AO (and it took 6 hours!).
Click to expand...

9-4 friend :)
 
IamGroot said:
Yeah the way Nadal treated Novak after he started dominating was pathetic. Sadly a lot of players are like that. It shows true character. Novaks father said it best. Nadal was his best friend before the tide turned in their matchup. Then he was really unpleasant. Whereas with Andy and Novak, the way they have treated each other has never changed, win or lose. Nadal was probably only friends with Nole because he saw him as a threat and wanted to keep him under the thumb. I remember early on in 2011 him saying how close he was to Novak but after he owned him on clay.. Nope. True friend that one :D
Click to expand...

If anybody really believes that any of the big 4 are or have ever been friends ever since they started dominating mens tennis, they need a reality check.

You are talking about showing your true character, the way you do it everytime Nadal gets mentioned.
 
vanioMan said:
If anybody really believes that any of the big 4 are friends ever since they started dominating mens tennis, they need a reality check.
Click to expand...

What gets me is the Fedal fans who think they are friends. They have never been friends. Civil for the most part, but never mates. They have even made a couple of digs at each other.
They made not be as close now, but there have definitely been times when Djoko and Nadal, Djok and Murray and Murray and Nadal have been genuine mates. Nadal is more likely to still be friends with Andy because he isn't a big threat to him.
 
IamGroot said:
What gets me is the Fedal fans who think they are friends. They have never been friends. Civil for the most part, but never mates. They have even made a couple of digs at each other.
They made not be as close now, but there have definitely been times when Djoko and Nadal, Djok and Murray and Murray and Nadal have been genuine mates. Nadal is more likely to still be friends with Andy because he isn't a big threat to him.
Click to expand...

Since you talk so much about it, would you be friend with your biggest rival and threat?

No, you wouldn't. So your remarks make no sense.
 
vanioMan said:
Since you talk so much about it, would you be friend with your biggest rival and threat?

No, you wouldn't. So your remarks make no sense.
Click to expand...

Yes I would if I was already friends with them. I would never drop a friend over tennis. What happens on court stays on court after all, no reason to drop friendships over it.
 
IamGroot said:
Dude, just accept I have a different opinion to you. It's arrogant to assume everyone would do the same as you. Just agree to disagree, no need to sneer.
Click to expand...

You've obviously never played sports and competitions, as opposed to me. I know how these things go. Therefore, your opinion on this subject is worthless.
 
vanioMan said:
You've obviously never played sports and competitions, as opposed to me. I know how these things go. Therefore, your opinion on this subject is worthless.
Click to expand...

Yes I have actually. Before I had health issues, I played many sports including tennis. I don't appreciate you calling my opinion worthless either, it's not necessary at all.
 
I think Novak did equal damage to Rafa and Federer post 2011.. since Rafa was trailing Federer and on a good run in 2010, it would seem to many that Novak hurt Rafa`s chances more than he did for Federer... Novak has definitely changed the FEDAL dynamic since his rise in 2011... that said i still don`t think Novak can catch up to Rafa.. I would love to watch Rafa get just one more ( if it happens sooner then he would be motivated enough to try harder to catch Federer)...

when people talk of friendship between Rafa and Novak.. i remember how Novak spoke post a french open loss to nadal-" Nadal isnt unbeatable, i can definitely beat him, i was close and such..." whereas Rafa has maintained that any and every player is Dangerous and can beat him... and even when he loses, he always maintains the " its not the end of life.. victories and defeats are part of life" statement...

i agree with a lot of people here, you really can`t be great friends with your biggest rival... Rafa,Novak,Murray and Federer are all great ambassadors for the sport considering the upcoming so called "tennis stars"... they don`t care or respect players that much...
 
Just because fedal aren't as charismatic as him doesn't mean nole can't be friends with the fellow sport promoters.
Fed didn't wear his Slam Win Total jacket, so he barely looked at nole in the Wimbledon hall way. If Novak had walked by fed after a fed win, Novak would've smiled at him.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
While I do think Nadal would've likely beaten Federer that year, it's not exactly preposterous to think that a 5 times champion would have at least had a chance, however slight.
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I am a Fed fan but I think Nadal would have won. Fed is better on that surface but it doesn't matter against Nadal. It's just the nightmare matchup for him. There was a time when their matches were competitive but that was a long time ago. Coupled with the fact that Fed wasn't great in 2010, I think Nadal would have won. But it's all hypothetical anyway.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
While I do think Nadal would've likely beaten Federer that year, it's not exactly preposterous to think that a 5 times champion would have at least had a chance, however slight.
Click to expand...

Nadal was just simply in way better form that year. His best ever hard court form IMO. He was serving 135 mph which is unheard of for him ever (and suspicious IMO when he never did it again, but that is another topic). Federer was just so so form that year at best. Combine that with the match up and Federer's last win over Nadal in a slam is 2007 now, and yeah it is pretty clear Nadal wins that year, probably more easily than he did vs Djokovic.

I do admit Fed might have had a shot in 2011.
 
IamGroot said:
I am a Fed fan but I think Nadal would have won. Fed is better on that surface but it doesn't matter against Nadal. It's just the nightmare matchup for him. There was a time when their matches were competitive but that was a long time ago. Coupled with the fact that Fed wasn't great in 2010, I think Nadal would have won. But it's all hypothetical anyway.
Click to expand...
Yeah, pretty much this. I do think Fed would've had a better chance in 2011 - thank God Novak prevented it from happening! :)
 
Even without Djokovic, Nadal would still be behind Federer.

Think about it: Nadal would be on 17 slams now without Nole. Fed would be on 20-21 slams without Nole.
 
mike danny said:
Even without Djokovic, Nadal would still be behind Federer.

Think about it: Nadal would be on 17 slams now without Nole. Fed would be on 20-21 slams without Nole.
Click to expand...

Yeah that is my thinking too, hence the initial breakdown.

I just thought it was interesting since I think the common perception is that Djokovic has saved Federer, but interstingly enough he has hurt Federer atleast as much as Nadal. Nadal hasnt even been able to stay healthy to reach Djokovic or has handled him in the big matches when he has, outside of 2011/start of 2012.
 
If not for Djokovic then Nadal would more than likely have won 5 consecutive slams from Roland Garros 2011 to Roland Garros 2012 (I think the only real question here is 2011 US Open, though the only reason that's a question is because Roger and Rafa have never played in New York, but given Federer hasn't beaten Nadal at any slam since 2007 I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say the only one really 'damaged' by Novak at that event was Nadal). He'd probably have amassed 5 masters series titles that year (possibly more), and he'd have won the tour finals in 2013, and considering it isn't too much of a stretch to say that he'd probably have beaten Monfils at Bercy in 2009 the guy would have the whole masters set to his name.

I think aside from those two US Open semi final defeats the only significant thing Novak has really done to lessen Roger's legacy is these past 2 Wimbledons.
 
mike danny said:
Even without Djokovic, Nadal would still be behind Federer.

Think about it: Nadal would be on 17 slams now without Nole. Fed would be on 20-21 slams without Nole.
Click to expand...

Well yeah that is true as well. Ultimately all those guys have stopped each other winning slams.
 
Without rafa and Novak, Fed could have 20 slams plus his turkey Roddick would have 10 slams and 15 masters shields.
However, tennis is for real men.
 
billboard said:
If the weak era was so good, those old players would have gotten slam wins in 2004-2015. An wrist injured nalbandian choked to hand Roddick the U.S. open.

Alas, on grass, old nieminin embarrassed hewitt
Click to expand...
Just stop, you're trolling way, way too much recently.
 
So lets just give Fed 20 slams and Nadal 17 and just pretend Novak never happened, shall we?

Djokovic never existedddddd........................ (waves hand around like a jedi)
 
zagor said:
Nole Destroyer.
Click to expand...

Nadal is so lucky he peaked late, otherwise his slam count would be so much lower. Also a shame other guys only started not fearing Nadal or falling for his games in the last couple of years. He got lucky. Good for him on capitalising on weak competition I guess. FO has such a poor field and he still should have lost countless times but resorted to gamesmanship (2011, 2012 demanding the rain delay) and had luck (2013 net touch, 2014 Djoker getting sick).

We should be looking at Stanimal talked amongst Fed and Djoko, not the Bull. Shame.
 
ibbi said:
If not for Djokovic then Nadal would more than likely have won 5 consecutive slams from Roland Garros 2011 to Roland Garros 2012 (I think the only real question here is 2011 US Open, though the only reason that's a question is because Roger and Rafa have never played in New York, but given Federer hasn't beaten Nadal at any slam since 2007 I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say the only one really 'damaged' by Novak at that event was Nadal). He'd probably have amassed 5 masters series titles that year (possibly more), and he'd have won the tour finals in 2013, and considering it isn't too much of a stretch to say that he'd probably have beaten Monfils at Bercy in 2009 the guy would have the whole masters set to his name.

I think aside from those two US Open semi final defeats the only significant thing Novak has really done to lessen Roger's legacy is these past 2 Wimbledons.
Click to expand...

mattosgrant said:
Yeah that is my thinking too, hence the initial breakdown.

I just thought it was interesting since I think the common perception is that Djokovic has saved Federer, but interstingly enough he has hurt Federer atleast as much as Nadal. Nadal hasnt even been able to stay healthy to reach Djokovic or has handled him in the big matches when he has, outside of 2011/start of 2012.
Click to expand...
Contrary to most, I don't think this is a poor thread.

And I think the answer is clearly Fed. As the first poster pointed out, it's highly hypothetical how you end up giving some slams to one and assuming they couldn't be beaten by a non-favorite and all that, but still - aside from that asterisk, I have the following comments:

If I were to guess at the slam distribution, I would give fewer than 3 to Rafa, because I do think all his respective opponents would have stood a fair chance against him.
Murray at the AO was just as hard for a fresher Djoko to beat and has beaten Rafa comprehensively at the AO (as well as the US for matter) and he had Lendl in his corner.
Tsonga at Wimbledon was serving lights out and could have hit a purple patch too vs. Rafa (let's not forget his confidence was already shaken by Djoko and how Tsonga beat Rafa at the slower AO 3 years earlier).

And Fed would def. have chances vs. Rafa in 2011 as well, in fact I personally would favor him slightly in that match and favor Rafa in 2010.
Let's not forget that they've not meet at a fast slam in 8 years (so Rafa beating Fed at RG and the AO shouldn't be used to conclude what would happen at the US - in fact how close Fed played Rafa for the first 3 sets (more points won iirc) are an indication that he def. would have had good chances at the US too) and that Fed even in his worst year played Rafa extremely close in Cincy in Rafa's best HC form and that he gave him a mere 3 games at the WTF 2 months after the 2011 US Open)

As for Fed, he would certainly have had his chances vs. Tsonga in 2008 too given Tsonga was a first time slam finalist and he would have been playing the myth as much as the man (Fed having lost but one non-RG slam match since 2003 and in that he had a MP) and that Fed actually lost a pretty tight 3-setter vs. Djoko (losing a mere 10-15 more points than Djoko iirc).
AO 2011, Wimbledon 2014 and Wimbledon 2015 I would favor Fed by quite a margin. And as stated, US Open 2011 would be very close too. So 3-5.

Conclusion: Novak def. took more slams away from Fed (as well as YE. 1 and WTF's) than from Rafa.

As for the Rafa-argument and that he would have caught Fed, people seem to forget that Fed would have gotten even further ahead (unless you just remove Novak from Rafa's career, which would be absurd).
 
Chanwan said:
Contrary to most, I don't think this is a poor thread.

And I think the answer is clearly Fed. As the first poster pointed out, it's highly hypothetical how you end up giving some slams to one and assuming they couldn't be beaten by a non-favorite and all that, but still - aside from that asterisk, I have the following comments:

If I were to guess at the slam distribution, I would give fewer than 3 to Rafa, because I do think all his respective opponents would have stood a fair chance against him.
Murray at the AO was just as hard for a fresher Djoko to beat and has beaten Rafa comprehensively at the AO (as well as the US for matter) and he had Lendl in his corner.
Tsonga at Wimbledon was serving lights out and could have hit a purple patch too vs. Rafa (let's not forget his confidence was already shaken by Djoko and how Tsonga beat Rafa at the slower AO 3 years earlier).

And Fed would def. have chances vs. Rafa in 2011 as well, in fact I personally would favor him slightly in that match and favor Rafa in 2010.
Let's not forget that they've not meet at a fast slam in 8 years (so Rafa beating Fed at RG and the AO shouldn't be used to conclude what would happen at the US - in fact how close Fed played Rafa for the first 3 sets (more points won iirc) are an indication that he def. would have had good chances at the US too) and that Fed even in his worst year played Rafa extremely close in Cincy in Rafa's best HC form and that he gave him a mere 3 games at the WTF 2 months after the 2011 US Open)

As for Fed, he would certainly have had his chances vs. Tsonga in 2008 too given Tsonga was a first time slam finalist and he would have been playing the myth as much as the man (Fed having lost but one non-RG slam match since 2003 and in that he had a MP) and that Fed actually lost a pretty tight 3-setter vs. Djoko (losing a mere 10-15 more points than Djoko iirc).
AO 2011, Wimbledon 2014 and Wimbledon 2015 I would favor Fed by quite a margin. And as stated, US Open 2011 would be very close too. So 3-5.

Conclusion: Novak def. took more slams away from Fed (as well as YE. 1 and WTF's) than from Rafa.

As for the Rafa-argument and that he would have caught Fed, people seem to forget that Fed would have gotten even further ahead (unless you just remove Novak from Rafa's career, which would be absurd).
Click to expand...
Well said. People easily forget that without Novak, Fed would be on 20 slams.
 
Federer easily. Without Djokovic, Federer would be on 9 Wimbledon titles and at least 19 majors. I feel he's done more harm to Federer than Nadal did.
 
Strobe Lights said:
Nadal clearly.

All but 1 of Djokovic's victories over Federer came when Fed already had 16 Majors. Fed's legacy as the greatest of the Open era was already secured as things stood. If he had won a few more of these matches in his post-prime against prime Novak, it doesn't really change his Open era standing. Maybe it would change his all-time standing with some people, but the complexities of tennis history make that such a difficult subject anyway.

Going into Wimbledon 2011, Nadal had 10 Majors, 6 behind Federer and had won 4 of the 5. He had huge momentum in terms of the Majors. Djokovic's 3 wins in a row not only prevented that run from continuing but prevented Rafa evening out his resumé a bit as those were the 3 non-RG Majors. He has managed to add 1 USO and 3 more RGs since, but those defeats took away his chance to get near to Fed in terms of overall number and with a better distribution.
Click to expand...

Well put. Anyone saying Federer is just greedy. Sure the two USO matches Roger lost with match points in hand were a chip against his legacy but the difference between 17 Slams and 18 or 19 is marginal at this point as it seems he'll hold that record for at least a decade to come. Now, in a future where his Slam record is overtaken multiple times by just 1 or a few and it's something like this:

Player A: 20 Slams
Player B: 19 Slams
Player C & D: 18 Slams
Federer: 17 Slams

Then sure, Federer fans like myself may bring up Djokovic and argue how if aging Federer just hadn't faced the best player of the next generation in his draws, he'd have gotten 20 Majors easily. But that's all it's going to be. I'm sure Player A will be slapped with " half his slams were against joke competition " and alike.


Nadal meanwhile is not getting past 15 Slams and that's all on Djokovic. I really do think Nadal is sitting at 17 or even 18 without Djokovic piercing his mind.
 
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