Ronaldo hasn’t done anything for Portugal. His Euros win was down to a one off long shot from his team mate... meanwhile Higuain has missed a few big chances in Argentina’s finals.
Who do you think is mentally tougher as person: Federer or Messi?
- Thread starter lud
- Start date
Sudacafan
G.O.A.T.
ReeceSachs
Hall of Fame
2011/2012 Messi and 2011/2015 Djokovic though
ReeceSachs
Hall of Fame
Ronaldo played well in Euro 2012 and he was a big part of the win vs Wales even if he did not factor in the final.
Sport
Legend
Stop with the excuses. If Arentina loses, it's never Messi's fault , it's always Higuaín's fault right? When Messi scored 0 goals in the 2010 World Cup it was also Higuaín's fault right? What about 2016 when Messi scored 0 goals in the Copa America final and missed his penalti? Was also Higuaín's fault that Messi failed his penalti and scored 0 goals in the final?
No, his entire legacy was in his own foot when he failed a clear goal chance in the 2014 World Cup final.
Minute 6:00. Messi was ALONE in the area in front of Neuer, yet he failed a clear chance to score.
It was NOT Higuaín's fault that Messi failed this clear chance.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Compared with the greats, he is.
Messi has had excellent Copa America’s too.
One decent chance doesn’t define his whole legacy. Again, Ronaldo has barely done anything with Portugal on the big stage. Just because his Eder won him a euros doesn’t make him better, or mentally tougher.
The argument for Ronaldo is doing it in multiple leagues, but you can’t hold it against Messi for staying loyal to the club who gave him a chance.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Let's not pretend like Djokovic was some mental monster. Only won 1 out of the last 9 slams in his prime from FO 2012 to FO 2014.
Sport
Legend
Messi is an all-time great and one of the strongest GOAT candidates along with Pele, Maradona and Cristiano.
Pele won 3 World Cups (with an excellent Brazlian team), and for many that makes him the best ever. Maradona won the World Cup with a terrible weak Argentinian team which for some it puts Maradona over Messi. Others consider that Cristiano's success both at club level (5 ChampIons League titles, most goals and assists in the history of the Champions League) and National level (Eurocup 2016, Second most prolific scorer ever of National teams) put him over Messi.
The GOAT debate in football is very open and debatable. There is not a clear GOAT criterion in football which is what makes Messi a solid GOAT contender but never the undisputed GOAT.
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
Not against Nadal and Novak though. He is guaranteed to lose a close match against them.
ReeceSachs
Hall of Fame
Was good in 2016 with 5 goals and 4 assists in 4 matches if i recall.
ReeceSachs
Hall of Fame
2012 was not much due to choking though IMO he was strong mentally at AO and he made RG competitive with Rafa and made a comeback vs Murray in USO even though he could not pull it off and he could have easily lost the YEC final too. He could have won 1-2 more slams in 2013-14 though.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
2012-2014 should have all been multi-slam seasons for Novak.
Ronaldo won a couple of Messi’s Ballon D’Ors as well just because Real won the CL
2012 was a very competitive year all around so it would’ve been challenging for any ATG to have won multiple slams in that season; Rafa was actually closer to winning 2 slams in ‘12 than Nole was and the big four split the 4 majors so it really doesn’t get more competitive than that.
2013, he was a touch of the net away from winning the French so that was definitely one that slipped away. Murray and Nadal were 100% the deserving winners of the 2013 WI and USO, respectively though.
2014 is the biggest mess up tbh. Lost the de-facto finals (given Rafa’s health in the finals) to Wawrinka in a 5-set classic (his only loss at the AO between 2011-16). He then lost to Nishikori of all ppl in the USO semifinals. He also got the worst version of Nadal that won RG but couldn’t go in for the kill after dominating the Spaniard in the first set. However, to put it into perspective, even though 2014 had the potential to be a calendar year slam for Nole, he could’ve easily went slamless as well as Fed had him on the ropes at Wimbledon (the only slam he actually won that year), but couldn’t finish him off.
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The Fedfather
Hall of Fame
Well, we're comparing, right? I think the chances that Federer will hold his own against Djokodal in a GS final are higher than ,for example, Messi performing well for Argentina in an important match against elite opposition. And before anyone uses this argument, the Argentina's squad being a mess creates the additional pressure for Messi, but it's not the reason why he doesn't handle pressure well.
Yeah, 2016 was ridiculous. Messi was clearly the better player that year.
Ronaldo scored many very important goals for Portugal at the Euro, starting from 2004. Messi even failed in copa america, which is less important and has less competition than euro.
In wc 2014 he played 4 ko games, 3 of them went to extra time, so basically 5 90 minutes ko games, and he didnt score and had one assist, thats it.
He underperformed every minute he played in these games. Federer choked many times, 2019 wimby was the ultimate choke, but at least he brought his A-game to the majority of these finals. His 2019 wimby loss was his best performance (not mentally) of the year. Messi didnt even bring his C-game to those ko-games
....
Messi actually outperformed Ronaldo in 2016 internationally. He was better at copa 2016 than Ronaldo was at euros that year. Only difference is Ronaldo’s team won the final for him.
I agree Messi has underperformed at times, but so has Ronaldo. Neither has been brilliant internationally.
SaintPetros
Hall of Fame
Never seen him lose one either
I voted Fed because I've never seen Messi win a tennis match from 2 sets to 0 down
Bukmeikara
Legend
Highly biased and wrong opinion. Messi won the golden ball at the WC but he underperformed? A football match is not only goals, Messi gave the assist to di Maria in one of the games + had like 5-6 dribbles per game + he was triple teamed every match.
Also the Euro is the same quality as the Copa. Reaching the WC final is pretty much equal to winning the Euro. Not to mention that Portugal only won because the format allowed the 3rd team in the group to advance
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I'm not sure if USO 2012 would have been a tiugh slam to win for any ATG. All credit to Murray, but he is not the type of player ATGs fear.
As far as Wimb 2013 is concerned, Murray fully deserved the win, but Djokovic should not have been straight-setted in a slam final by him.
FO 2013 was a slip-up, but Nadal GOATED in that 5th set so he fully deserved to win. USO 2013 was a pathetic performance from Nole though. I don't ever see Fed performing like that in his prime in a non-clay slam final.
So yes, I stand by what I said. 2012-2014 should have all been multi slam seasons for Novak.
ForehandRF
Professional
Also, a win vs Nadal at the French would have been perfect for Djokovic in that period. He will remain with the 2015 win probably and with Nadal fans always pointing out that it was the worst version of Nadal.
2014 is the only year he truly let them a bunch of chances slip by tbh. All of his losses at majors from 2011-13 were either to Rafa, Fed or Murray and those losses were all career defining wins for his opponents, so I wouldn’t hang my head too much about those losses during that period if I were Novak
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A Djokovic win against Nadal at RG in any year besides 2015 would’ve been massive. Losing ‘12 RG would’ve been beyond catastrophic for Rafa, Nole could’ve won the calendar slam in 2013 if he beats Rafa at RG, and Rafa May have been done for good had he lost in 2014.
Also, by the looks of it, the biggest difference between Rafa at the French and Federer at Wimby is that Rafa never let Djokovic dethrone him there. Rafa held his own against Novak in Paris between 2012-14 while Fed lost husband reign to him in 2014, 2015 and 2019. Their numbers would look very different had some of these matchups went the other way
Ronaldo is not as talented as Messi, but he is much more mentally tougher. And he scored in euro 2016 semifinal 1:0, 2004 semifinal 1:0, and 2012 1:0 in quarterfinal. Messi however...
I agree, Djokovic underperformed in many most important matches between 2012 and 2014. His loss against Nishikori is worse than Sampras losses against Korda us open 1997 or Kucera aus 1998.
Eren
Professional
About Ronaldo barely doing anything in Euro '16. I am not sure, comparing it to Missi's ZERO goals in the KO stages, I'd say 2 goals and one assist in the group stage is a bit meh, but 2 goals and 2 assists half of which in the semi-final isn't really 'barely doing anything.'
If you compare their CL KO record, it's almost as if you're comparing a god to a mere mortal.
8th: 23 goals Ronaldo vs. 26 goals Messi (3 goal advantage Messi, hardly significant)
QF: 25 goals Ronaldo vs. 13 goals Messi (almost double the amount LMAO)
SF: 13 goals Ronaldo vs. 6 goals Messi (Should I really go on about this one)
F: 4 goals and one assist Ronaldo vs. 2 goals and 0 assists (lol)
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
The point is, if Novak is praised as such a mental monster, surely he should have done better in those 3 years
Both: 0 goals in the final
Ronaldo has played in a much better teams than Messi since about 2014. Teams park the bus against Barca, and there’s nothing they can do to get past it since Xavi/Iniesta left.
R Madrid on the other hand are more open and there’s more chances.
Eren
Professional
LOL yes, but when Messi played in a much better team from 2009-2011 it wasn't because of the team, it was because of Messi.
Ronaldo in the CL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messi in the CL.
Ronaldo 6 finals and 5 titles, vs 3 finals and 3 actual titles (one phony title when he was sitting on his arse from QF till Final and wasn't even in the stadium, Ronaldinho won that one for him and that get's rarely mentioned).
2009-2011 was a team effort, since football is about 11 players not 1. Put Ronaldo in Barca 2016-2018 and I highly doubt he does as well as he did for Real Madrid.
Typical Ronaldo fanboy response.
The >>>>>>>>> is a bit of a joke. Ronaldo has performed better but not as much as you think. It’s 5 titles each. Unless we should remove Euro 2016 where Ronaldo only won because of a fluke long shot from Eder lol.
Eren
Professional
5 titles each, are you drunk lol. Even with the fake title it's 5-4 Ronaldo. Don't let your fanboyism get in the way of actual facts.
At least Ronaldo contributed by scoring a goal and assisting in a SF whereas Messi wasn't even there in the last 5 matches in the CL 2006. How on earth you can compare those is beyond me.
Sorry my mistake, I was thinking of 5 balon dor each? You can’t call anyone a fanboy the way you’re going on.
We’re getting off topic here. The original point was, Ronaldo hasn’t done much more for Portugal than Messi has for Argentina. Messi’s copa 2016 was equal with any of Ronaldo’s for Portugal. Difference being Ronaldo got saved by his team who won it for him. Neither has been great internationally, aside from racking up lots of goals in qualifiers.
He is mentally stronger now than he was in his prime. However his problem was not choking on big points, but just playing beliw his capabilities, underperforming. Federer usually played his best, but managed to choke on the biggest points too many timesThe point is, if Novak is praised as such a mental monster, surely he should have done better in those 3 years
mike danny
Bionic Poster
The competition also got weaker compated to when Novak was in his prime.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Underperforming shouldn't excusr Novak. A mental monster rises to the important ocassions.
StrongRule
Legend
Yeah, because he lost to prime Nadal who was having a great year.
Also, RG 2013 semifinal should have never went to a fifth set. It did only because Nadal choked in the fourth.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Nadal fully deserved the win, but Novak didn't play as well as he could have. Sets 1 and 4 were atrocious from him.Yeah, because he lost to prime Nadal who was having a great year.
Also, RG 2013 semifinal should have never went to a fifth set. It did only because Nadal choked in the fourth.
Can't play well for only 2 sets and expect to win.
StrongRule
Legend
I'll give you that he started slowly in the first set. However, the fourth set (also, not all the set, more like starting from the third game) was just a result of Nadal breaking him down. And there were reasons: Djokovic played a very good third set, and Nadal somehow took it from him by being extremely clutch on the big points. As I remember it was the ONLY time during Djokovic's prime when somebody managed to break him mentally, and only for one set. Right after that Djokovic went to winning 28 matches in a row. So I don't understand your point about Djokovic not being mentally strong. IMO he is mentally the strongest player in history. I wish Nadal would be half as mentally strong.
Messi has scored 603 goals in just 687 domestic games, while Ronaldo has 601 in 806 games. Messi has also won more individual hardware and had a greater peak stretch
mike danny
Bionic Poster
We clearly see things differently.
It was Djokovic's own fault that he allowed himself to get broken down.
The Wimb and USO finals in 2013 get swept under the rug pretty easily, but Federer's failures are constantly reminded.
FRV2
Professional
Tennis depends a lot more on mental toughness than soccer, so it is probably Federer if you look at it that way. I mean, if you watch a Barcelona match you can see how Messi just tools on anybody around him with his dribbling. His passing and striking is pure artistry as well. He doesn't really need mental toughness to the extent of tennis players. Tennis demands mental toughness to the point where players must develop it to a very high level if they want to play with the best, as there are bound to be many crucial points throughout a match.
I voted for Messi, but would change my vote to Federer after thinking about it.
I voted for Messi, but would change my vote to Federer after thinking about it.
I think a big reason for that is Fed got the GOAT label before he even broke Pete's record and for the last decade or so, whenever ppl brought up the name "Federer" it usually comes with the word "GOAT." As a result, people expect him to win well...everything and when he doesn't it stands out. When you're that great, it'll naturally come with a ton of criticism as well. Fed's my fav player to watch as well, but every ultra-gifted and rich athlete s
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Yes i agree, i just meant his mental weakness was different than Federers
Lotus_Island
New User
Please do not compare a genius to Federer.
Eren
Professional
I was talking about the CL. Those stats you mentioned are not in the CL where Ronaldo is head and shoulders above Messi. In domestic leagues Messi is head and shoulders above Ronaldo.
BorgTheGOAT
Professional
This is partly due to the fact that his stats at Manchester United, Juventus and especially Sporting are putting his numbers down. If we only take his games and goals at Real he is even better than Messi. I understand of course that this again is unfair because his time at Real exclusively covers prime years, while Messis stats are inflated by his first years as a teenager. Anyways, we do not know how Messi would have fared at other clubs in other leagues. Ronaldo however, more than proved that he can put up similar numbers as Messi.