Who do you think is mentally tougher as person: Federer or Messi?

Fed or Mess

  • Federer

    Votes: 34 61.8%
  • Messi

    Votes: 21 38.2%

  • Total voters
    55

Bukmeikara

Legend
This is partly due to the fact that his stats at Manchester United, Juventus and especially Sporting are putting his numbers down. If we only take his games and goals at Real he is even better than Messi. I understand of course that this again is unfair because his time at Real exclusively covers prime years, while Messis stats are inflated by his first years as a teenager. Anyways, we do not know how Messi would have fared at other clubs in other leagues. Ronaldo however, more than proved that he can put up similar numbers as Messi.
He could put similar numbers .. in terms of goals, he doesnt have the same impact as Messi. I dont know how people watching matches could even make a case that Cristiano is close to Messi in terms of team value.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Professional
He could put similar numbers .. in terms of goals, he doesnt have the same impact as Messi. I dont know how people watching matches could even make a case that Cristiano is close to Messi in terms of team value.
How exactly do you measure team value? Take Zidane for example. His numbers in terms of goals and assists are ridiculously low considering the reputation he has in the football world. However, he delivered in a lot of big matches and this is what achieved him three best player of the year awards. There are certain players who are specialists in scoring Hattricks in 6-0 wins against second tier opposition but always fail to deliver on the big stages, total numbers do not always tell the whole story.
 

Sport

Legend
How exactly do you measure team value? Take Zidane for example. His numbers in terms of goals and assists are ridiculously low considering the reputation he has in the football world. However, he delivered in a lot of big matches and this is what achieved him three best player of the year awards. There are certain players who are specialists in scoring Hattricks in 6-0 wins against second tier opposition but always fail to deliver on the big stages, total numbers do not always tell the whole story.
Good analysis. Also, World Cup performances > Champions League performances > domestic league performances.

That is the reason why Pele and Maradona will always have a strong GOAT claim. And even Ronaldo Nazario and Zidane should be in the top 5/top 10 GOAT conversation, if only for their magnificent World Cup performances.
 

Bukmeikara

Legend
How exactly do you measure team value?
By watching the match. Messi is double, tripple teamed at any position on the field. Messi could create a chance with his passing(1st in assists in both 2018 and 2019 La liga seasons), with his dribble (1st in 2018, 2nd 2019) and with his goals(1st in both 2018 and 2019) or even with free kicks and corners. Ronaldo could only score .. at lower rate than Messi.
Messi allows his teammates to shine and be themselfs - Suarez and Neymar for example. Ronaldo is 100% about himself, in the most dominant seasons of Ronaldo, Benzema had like 10 goals per season. Yesterday Ramsey had to apologies that he tapped in a goal that would have been given to Ronaldo ... I mean if this doesnt say much I dont know why. Ronaldo has like 1 goal in 3 years from free kicks .. he still takes them with Dybala and Pjanic on his team

 

Sport

Legend
Ronaldo could only score .. at lower rate than Messi.
Messi allows his teammates to shine and be themselfs [/MEDIA]
Cristiano involucrates his teammates even better than Messi. Cristiano has scored the most goals and most assists in the history of the Champions League. If Messi were a better scorer or passer than Cristiano, he would lead Cristiano in the Champions League in both categories, but he doesn't.

Ratio is less relevant than total, anyhow.

Gerd Müller (0.97) and Di Stéfano (0.84) have a better goal ratio than Messi (0.81) in the Champions League. Does it mean they are better goal scorers in the Champions League than Messi? Nope.

Oh, and Cristiano has a lower goal rate only in worse teams than Barcelona with worst midfielders who logically give him less assists. Both Manchester and Juve have a far worse midfield than Barcelona, so of course he receives less good passes and it is more difficult to score. Messi also has a lower goal rate with Argentina than with Barça, which corroborates the fact that the goal ratio decreases with worse teams.

Goal ratio in comparable teams (Barça-Real Madrid):

Cristiano's goal ratio in Real Madrid 2009-2018:
450 goals in 438 matches: 1.02

Messi's goal ratio in Barcelona 2009-2018:
472 goals in 476 matches: 0.99
 

JasonZ

Semi-Pro
Cristiano involucrates his teammates even better than Messi. Cristiano has scored the most goals and most assists in the history of the Champions League. If Messi were a better scorer or passer than Cristiano, he would lead Cristiano in the Champions League in both categories, but he doesn't.

Ratio is less relevant than total, anyhow.

Gerd Müller (0.97) and Di Stéfano (0.84) have a better goal ratio than Messi (0.81) in the Champions League. Does it mean they are better goal scorers in the Champions League than Messi? Nope.

Oh, and Cristiano has a lower goal rate only in worse teams than Barcelona with worst midfielders who logically give him less assists. Both Manchester and Juve have a far worse midfield than Barcelona, so of course he receives less good passes and it is more difficult to score. Messi also has a lower goal rate with Argentina than with Barça, which corroborates the fact that the goal ratio decreases with worse teams.

Goal ratio in comparable teams (Barça-Real Madrid):

Cristiano's goal ratio in Real Madrid 2009-2018:
450 goals in 438 matches: 1.02

Messi's goal ratio in Barcelona 2009-2018:
472 goals in 476 matches: 0.99
Actually Gerd Müller is a better goal scorer than both Messi and Ronaldo, and he proved at every stage, especially world cup
 

The Fedfather

Hall of Fame
Cristiano involucrates his teammates even better than Messi. Cristiano has scored the most goals and most assists in the history of the Champions League. If Messi were a better scorer or passer than Cristiano, he would lead Cristiano in the Champions League in both categories, but he doesn't.

Ratio is less relevant than total, anyhow.

Gerd Müller (0.97) and Di Stéfano (0.84) have a better goal ratio than Messi (0.81) in the Champions League. Does it mean they are better goal scorers in the Champions League than Messi? Nope.

Oh, and Cristiano has a lower goal rate only in worse teams than Barcelona with worst midfielders who logically give him less assists. Both Manchester and Juve have a far worse midfield than Barcelona, so of course he receives less good passes and it is more difficult to score. Messi also has a lower goal rate with Argentina than with Barça, which corroborates the fact that the goal ratio decreases with worse teams.

Goal ratio in comparable teams (Barça-Real Madrid):

Cristiano's goal ratio in Real Madrid 2009-2018:
450 goals in 438 matches: 1.02

Messi's goal ratio in Barcelona 2009-2018:
472 goals in 476 matches: 0.99
I can understand the argument about goalscoring (although I dosagree), because Ronaldo has been extremely prolific in front of goal across all comps. He is like a machine in that sense, with his incredible athleticism and the ability to put himself in great position to score.
But passing? In what footballing universe does Ronaldo come close to Messi's passing ability? Ok, he has some more assists in however more matches, but what about key passes if we go for pure stats? And then what about just the quality, ingenuity of passes? The vision that Messi has... There is honestly no comparison.
 
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BorgTheGOAT

Professional
Good analysis. Also, World Cup performances > Champions League performances > domestic league performances.

That is the reason why Pele and Maradona will always have a strong GOAT claim. And even Ronaldo Nazario and Zidane should be in the top 5/top 10 GOAT conversation, if only for their magnificent World Cup performances.
Agree about Maradona and Pelé, disagree about Zidane. As much as I liked his playing style, he is criminally overrated in terms of greatness. Ronaldo Nazario could have put any GOAT debate to bed, had he stayed injury free. In terms of raw talent nobody comes close.
 

JasonZ

Semi-Pro
Agree about Maradona and Pelé, disagree about Zidane. As much as I liked his playing style, he is criminally overrated in terms of greatness. Ronaldo Nazario could have put any GOAT debate to bed, had he stayed injury free. In terms of raw talent nobody comes close.
Yes Zidane is one if the most overrated players of all time.
 

H22 fan

Rookie
Football does not require anything like the levels of concentration and mental toughness that tennis does, for a lot longer than 90 minutes. Then there's the blunt reality of football that the pressure and decision-making is distributed across 11 teammates. Any top 200 tennis player is mentally tougher than any footballer.
Same thoughts here...
 

duaneeo

Hall of Fame
Ol' Rog is by no means a mental midget. Now compared to the rest of the Big 3 he is mentally the shortest.
That would be the one who double-faulted on championship point at 2012 Roland Garros, and who beat Federer in the semi/Nadal in the final of 2011 USO but lost to Murray in the 2012 USO final, and who ran into the net and eventually broken to lose a 5th-set break lead at 2013 Roland Garros, and who suffered a 2nd slam final loss to Murray at 2013 Wimbledon, and who simply went through the motions in the 2013 USO final, and who allowed Wawrinka to become his kryptonite in 2014, and who again double-faced on championship point in the Roland Garros final, and who lost to Nishikori at the 2014 US Open. This all occurred while he was at his peak.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Professional
Yes Zidane is one if the most overrated players of all time.
If you check his stats you would actually be surprised. A full season of 5 goals and 4 assists was his standard. Thing is most people do not watch regular league games but only the big ones and therefore remember WC 98 final, CH league 2002 final and WC 2006. However, even his international career is overrated a little. When we look at the tournaments:

Euro 96: non factor
WC 98: good Game against Saudi-Arabia, red card against Denmark, non factor until the final. In the vote for best player of the tournament (which is done before the final), he finishes 5th, not even the best French player (behind Henry). Then in the final he scores twice and out of the sudden he wins the World player of the year award.
Euro 2000: Some good games, invisible in the final but overall a good tournament.
WC 2002: Did nothing (literally)
Euro 2004: good game against England. Overall nothing special.
WC 2006: maybe his best tournament. Should have won the title here, better than in 98.

Let’s then come to his international club finals:
UEFA Cup 96: non factor in both games
Champions League 97: non factor
Champions League 98: non factor
Champions League 2002: Great Game
UEFA Super Cup 96: non factor
UEFA Super Cup 2002: Non factor
Intercontinental Cup 96: non factor
Intercontinental Cup 2002: non factor

So basically Zidanes whole reputation as one of the best players of all time is built on three good performances in finales (and some additional good semis and quarters). Not bad, but to be viewed as a GOAT candidate??
 
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